How to respond to classical theists who dodge Open Theism arguments

[JudgeRightly]

Taking you off ignore for a moment because this needs to be addressed.

It is VERY hard to not see omniscience in Peter and Jesus' dialogue

It's very hard to see omniscience in Peter and Jesus' dialogue.

You have to read it into the verse.

But you can't understand that until you have a paradigm shift, so as to NOT read omniscience into the text.

without a very hard song and dance (gently, but firmly):

Bearing false witness is a sin, Lon. Don't do that.

Try reading the passage without thinking of "omniscience," and instead thinking of the fact that Jesus had just spent the past THREE YEARS living with Peter and the others... (It also helps to read the passage in modern English, so that you're not having to interpret the text into modern English in order to understand what it's saying.)

Matthew 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:‘I will strike the Shepherd,And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.” Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!”And so said all the disciples.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:31-35 - New King James Version

Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial - Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” Peter answered and...

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus knew Peter, not the future. And because He knew Peter, just as He knew everyone else in the world, predicting what one person would do in a given situation is no hard task.

He knew how Peter would react when pressed, because He knew Peter was a bit of a coward, who didn't understand Jesus' plan! You could even say he was a bit of a basket case! (cf. Matthew 26:51; Mark 14:47; Luke 22:50; John 18:10)

This interaction continued upon the next time Peter and Jesus spoke together:

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”He said to him, “Feed My lambs.” He said to him again a second time, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry where you do not wish.” This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

Bible Gateway passage: John 21:15-19 - New King James Version

Jesus Restores Peter - So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Feed My lambs.” He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love...

www.biblegateway.com

What is evident is omniscience by description and statement from Peter in clarity. Anything else is a very hard song and dance that is determinism, no longer Open Theism in any consistency and is awkward, even damaging to the text.

Only if you intentionally read omniscience into the text.

I know, it's hard to rid yourself of your a priori beliefs, but it's necessary if you want to better understand the text.

Peter isn't saying "you are omniscient."

Peter was conceding that Jesus knew him better than he knew himself, or at the very least, better than Peter wanted to say he knew himself... Because Jesus correctly, based on His relationship with Peter from the past three years, knew that Peter would deny him, not because He knew the future, but because He knew Peter.

Again, there's no reason to read omniscience into the text.

Relevant:

 

[Nick M]

What's the difference.

He arranged to have 3 people ask him. He didn't see the future which does not exist. Another similar text is the Exodus. Different people that can translate say it is off a little, but it doesn't change anything.


Exodus 14
Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

 

[Nick M]

The difference is free will or the lack thereof and, by extension, the existence of justice or the lack thereof.

Just like in Exodus.

 

[way 2 go]

Or he knew his heart and he would deny him, and arranged to have him asked 3 times.

(James 1:13) Let no one being tempted say, I am tempted from God. For God is not tempted by evils, and He tempts no one.

 

[way 2 go]

He arranged to have 3 people ask him. He didn't see the future which does not exist. Another similar text is the Exodus. Different people that can translate say it is off a little, but it doesn't change anything.


Exodus 14
Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

G-d knew Peter would deny him 3 times
Just as he knows they will not repent in the tribulation

(Revelation of John 16:11) And they blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores. And they did not repent of their deeds.


(Revelation of John 9:20-21) [20] And the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and golden, and silver, and bronze, and stone, and wooden idols (which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk). [21] And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

[Clete]

Just like in Exodus.

I don't follow.

 

[Lon]

Taking you off ignore for a moment because this needs to be addressed.

Sorry, Clete said "whishy washy' and so it forced a strong stance at that venture, but it is good in the sense that it has brought up a stark need for discussion. I understood why I was put on ignore and appreciate it.

It's very hard to see omniscience in Peter and Jesus' dialogue.

"Before the rooster crows, you will have denied me (exactly) three times."
--- if you thought about your Open View posit, this makes no sense at all from your theology perspective, let alone mine. It forces you well away from Open precepts. He did not make Peter deny. He did not 'guess' it'd be three times and you do damage to Him over the matter.

"Lord you know all things, you know that I love you."
--The opposite of 'very hard to see.'

Then the Lord Jesus Christ told Peter how he was to die. You'd have this because it'd be scripted by the Lord Jesus Christ that men would lead him where he didn't want to go. --no, it makes the most sense, because it does no damage to your will, that Jesus indeed "knows all things." It is the best rendering of the text.

You have to read it into the verse.

"Lord you know all things." You are literally importing a rendering of the text forced by Open View lenses. There is no other lens but the exact opposite so it is all about glasses JR.

But you can't understand that until you have a paradigm shift, so as to NOT read omniscience into the text.

Those glasses don't work.

Bearing false witness is a sin, Lon. Don't do that.

Let me repeat it because I wholly believe it: Not without a very hard song and dance do your glasses fit.
These passages make incredibly better sense simply reading them exactly for what they intimate: "Lord you know all things." Do you realize you are the one who denies the plain verse?

Try reading the passage without thinking of "omniscience," and instead thinking of the fact that Jesus had just spent the past THREE YEARS living with Peter and the others... (It also helps to read the passage in modern English, so that you're not having to interpret the text into modern English in order to understand what it's saying.)

I have. I put on your glasses. It is passages like these that would turn me back to orthodoxy. I genuinely could not be an Open Theist any longer after reading these passages. It'd turn me back, no question.

Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:‘I will strike the Shepherd,And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.” Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!”And so said all the disciples.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:31-35 - New King James Version

Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial - Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” Peter answered and...

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus knew Peter, not the future. And because He knew Peter, just as He knew everyone else in the world, predicting what one person would do in a given situation is no hard task.

Not possible without making him deny exactly three times. Do you even listen to your own arguments? When the conversation picks back up, Peter is grieved because he denied exactly three times, asked three times if he loves Jesus, and says "You know all things" and Jesus continues to tell him 'what manner he would die.'

He knew how Peter would react when pressed, because He knew Peter was a bit of a coward, who didn't understand Jesus' plan! You could even say he was a bit of a basket case! (cf. Matthew 26:51; Mark 14:47; Luke 22:50; John 18:10)

Peter cut off an ear. He was no coward. Such is said 'after' he denied knowing Jesus. He went into the place Jesus was being beaten to try to save Him. The denials? Not because he was a coward, but because he was willing to do anything to save Jesus...until His words came home after the rooster crowed. That is love. "Lord you know all things, you know I love you."

Your glasses are clouding the passage for a paradigm. Open Theism doesn't look right.

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”He said to him, “Feed My lambs.” He said to him again a second time, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry where you do not wish.” This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

Bible Gateway passage: John 21:15-19 - New King James Version

Jesus Restores Peter - So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Feed My lambs.” He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love...

www.biblegateway.com

Only if you intentionally read omniscience into the text.

Just the opposite! "Lord you know all things, you know I love you."

I know, it's hard to rid yourself of your a priori beliefs, but it's necessary if you want to better understand the text.

Right. Between us is a pair of different glasses. This conversation allows us to really examine those glasses and see which holds up best. We are both committed, but in amongst this is a prayer that God would open both of our eyes. I've been here 25 years, not whishy washy, but willing to have the God of the universe change my glasses, if He sees fit and with my careful study. I am more convinced today than 25 years ago that the glasses just don't work.

Peter isn't saying "you are omniscient."

Literally "παντα (all) γινωσκεις (know)."

Peter was conceding that Jesus knew him better than he knew himself, or at the very least, better than Peter wanted to say he knew himself... Because Jesus correctly, based on His relationship with Peter from the past three years, knew that Peter would deny him, not because He knew the future, but because He knew Peter.

See? Song and dance, I wasn't bearing false witness. You have to use many words to explain 'knows all' away. You do the same thing in 1 John. Doesn't it even phase you that John says "...Who is greater than our hearts (even), knows all things?" You literally have to make it a figure of speech to use Open View glasses.

Again, there's no reason to read omniscience into the text.

Relevant:

I believe there is a great need: The text itself. You either uses clear glasses, or ones that obscure meaning and simply cannot render the whole of it as to what was going on without a lot of convoluted hoops. Your glasses go through a lot of hoops before you come up with your understanding and as such appears contrived for no other reason than to prop up Open Theist ideas. No other theologian, even among cults, sees it this way except Open Theism and Process Theology (not a guilty association, just the extent of those who choose and wear these glasses).

In Him -Lon

 

[Nick M]

I don't follow.

God doesn't know the future, he knows what he will do. And he knows us better than we know ourselves. And he is sovereign over his creation. And if he wants to push people's buttons to get a desired outcome, he is right to do so. He knew his actions would harden the heart of pharaoh. He knew Peter was soft and lie to protect himself. It isn't a prediction of the future. This happens often in the Bible, I had made the comment about Exodus before the reply to you. I made an assumption.