Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Mickey Mantle was as good as Willie Mays in my opinion so I think that he should at least be on the Honorable Mention list. And I agree with you that Clemente should at least be on the same list.
Your Mount Rushmores (Sports, Music, Politics, etc.)
- Thread starter Town Heretic
- Start date
Mickey Mantle was as good as Willie Mays in my opinion so I think that he should at least be on the Honorable Mention list. And I agree with you that Clemente should at least be on the same list.
No disagreement with Mantle being on the Hon Men list. I could list some others for that as well.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
One player who certainly deserves to be on the Honorable Mention list is Stan the Man Musial. And perhaps Al Kaline.
I don't see how you can get rid of the best contact hitter in the history of the game and arguably its best pitcher. Baseball is probably the toughest sport to call. If I thought there were enough fans here I'd be interested in going team to team...I still might.
We've already done the old Dodgers.Kofax was a fine pitcher. Three years with an ERA under 2???? :chuckle: Nothing wrong with having his card in your pocket.
It usually takes about 5 great years to make a pitcher's lasting reputation. Some, like Johnson, manage that while having a longer, less impressive streak and some, like Martinez, have shorter but more potent (on average) careers. Here's a look at a few with a new stat thrown in (WAR) that's there for the heck of it.
Young
WAR (wins added to a team above what a replacement player adds): 168.5
ERA: 2.63
WHIP (balls on base + hits against innings pitched): 1.130
ERA by Year
3.5 +: 3 But never over 4 and to be fair the worst of that was when he was in his 40s.
3.0 to 3.5: 6
2.5 to 2.9: 4
2.0 to 2.4: 3
Under 2: 6
Good to great years: 13
Kofax
WAR: 49
ERA 2.76
WHIP 1.106
ERA by Year
3.5+: 6
3.0 to 3.5: 2
2.5 to 2.9: 1
2.0 to 2.4: 1
Under 2: 3
Good to great years: 5
Gibson
WAR 89.9
ERA 2.91
WHIP 1.188
ERA by Year
3.5+: 3
3.0 to 3.5: 7
2.5 to 2.9: 3
2.0 to 2.4: 3
Under 2: 1
Good to great years: 7
Nolan
WAR 81.8
ERA 3.19
WHIP 1.247
ERA by Year
3.5+: 6
3.0 to 3.5: 12
2.5 to 2.9: 6
2.0 to 2.4: 1
Under 2: 1
Good to great years: 8
Clemmons
WAR 140.3
ERA 3.12
WHIP 1.173
ERA by Year
3.5+: 9
3.0 to 3.5: 3
2.5 to 2.9: 6
2.0 to 2.4: 4
Under 2: 2
Good to great years: 12
Maddox
WAR 106.9
ERA 3.16
WHIP 1.143
ERA by Year
3.5+: 7
3.0 to 3.5: 7
2.5 to 2.9: 3
2.0 to 2.4: 4
Under 2: 2
Good to great years: 9
Martinez
WAR 84
ERA 2.93
WHIP 1.054
ERA by Year
3.5+: 5
3.0 to 3.5: 2
2.5 to 2.9: 4
2.0 to 2.4: 5
Under 2: 2
Good to great years: 11
Seaver
WAR 110.5
ERA 2.86
WHIP 1.121
ERA by Year
3.5+: 4
3.0 to 3.5: 5
2.5 to 2.9: 7
2.0 to 2.4: 5
Under 2: 1
Good to great years: 13
Johnson
WAR 102.1
ERA 3.29
WHIP 1,171
ERA by Year
3.5+: 12
3.0 to 3.5: 3
2.5 to 2.9: 1
2.0 to 2.4: 6
Under 2: 0
Good to great years: 7
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Pitcher Fernando Valenzuela from Mexico had a few years when he was very, very good. Especially the eleven years when he pitched for the Dodgers.
During those years he had an ERA of 3.31 and WHIP of 1.283.
Is he worthy of being mentioned along with the great ones which you mentioned?
During those years he had an ERA of 3.31 and WHIP of 1.283.
Is he worthy of being mentioned along with the great ones which you mentioned?
I don't think he was consistently good enough for long enough to be in the great's conversation. There are some I've left off though, like Feller, Vance, Schilling, Gooden, and Tanana. I'll come back to it at some point. I got tired.
Mantle should have been close, but he drank away some of his skill and never really fulfilled his greatness, great as he was...no, he doesn't catch Mays.
I'll do a hitter's list at some point. In the meantime:
Mantel - Mays
WAR 109.7 - 156.2
BA .298 - .302
OBP .421 - 384
SLG .527 - .557
OPS .977 - .941
As a hitter it was close. But then you get to stolen bases (even if you take off the difference in years playing it's 2 to 1 for Mays) and fielding and Mays is just a good ways in front of Mantel. I think on most lists Mays is in the top 3 discussion and Mantel closer to the top 10.
Mays...12 golden gloves (he'd have had more but they didn't give them out until 1957), all but two years of his career on the all star list, he's the Jordan of the NFL and if it wasn't for the talent Ruth demonstrated as a hitter and pitcher, Mays would be number one.
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yea, but Mickey had more fun than the Say Hey Kid.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Mount Rushmore of Early Rock & Roll:
Chuck Berry
Buddy Holly
Elvis Presley
Jerry Lee Lewis
Chuck Berry
Buddy Holly
Elvis Presley
Jerry Lee Lewis
Last edited:
I don't see how you can get rid of the best contact hitter in the history of the game and arguably its best pitcher. Baseball is probably the toughest sport to call. If I thought there were enough fans here I'd be interested in going team to team...I still might.
Kofax was a fine pitcher. Three years with an ERA under 2???? :chuckle: Nothing wrong with having his card in your pocket.
It usually takes about 5 great years to make a pitcher's lasting reputation. Some, like Johnson, manage that while having a longer, less impressive streak and some, like Martinez, have shorter but more potent (on average) careers. Here's a look at a few with a new stat thrown in (WAR) that's there for the heck of it.
Interesting info. I'd also be curious about K/BB ratios. I sometimes forget how good Martinez was. Seaver is definitely one of the top.
I was never a big Nolan fan but his 7 no-hitters is amazing. Probably will never be reached.
Feller. :up:I don't think he was consistently good enough for long enough to be in the great's conversation. There are some I've left off though, like Feller, Vance, Schilling, Gooden, and Tanana. I'll come back to it at some point. I got tired.
Stan Musial is definitely worth a mention.
Jimmie Foxx was good as well.
When my dad was coming up in the Orioles' system they compared his fastball to Feller's.
When my dad was coming up in the Orioles' system they compared his fastball to Feller's.
Impressive.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When my dad was coming up in the Orioles' system they compared his fastball to Feller's.
What year was that?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Mount Rushmore of Golf:
Tiger Woods
Jack Nicklaus
Arnold Palmer
Bobby Jones
But what about Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, and Byron Nelson?
Tiger Woods
Jack Nicklaus
Arnold Palmer
Bobby Jones
But what about Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, and Byron Nelson?
:idunno: I'd have to ask. I"m lousy with dates. He pitched for the Navy first then went into their system and was making waves when he kept having shoulder and elbow issues. Stiffness and soreness that was outside of his experience. Early onset arthritis and that was that. On the plus side, they weren't making Monopoly money then, and he was even better at business, as it turned out. But I remember watching him throw as a kid and how my brother would yip as catcher (with a really heavy glove) when we dared him to burn one in.
He was/is a natural athlete. Still plays 18 holes of golf a week and wins his age routinely in the senior set tournaments or mixed. My brother has that gift too, though like my father he's better in business. Me? I may have been adopted.Impressive.
lain: Well, no. Jack is going to have my size, unlike my brother, so if he gets any of rhe "Papa Ben" gene (and Jack's a lefty) I may get to spend my golden years behind home plate.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
How old is your Dad?
They are all very good, but there is only one Arnold Palmer.