Young Earth or Old?

[Jerry Shugart]

God FORMED the earth to be inhabited.

But He can't FORM IT IF IT DOESN'T EXIST!

You agree that you are saying that the earth came into existence first and then it was formed.

So let us look at this verse:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

According to your ideas the LORD created the earth first and when He created it He did not create it to be empty. However, you say that the following verse describes how the LORD created it:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

The Hebrew word translated "void" means "emptiness, void, waste" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

Genesis 1:2 makes it plain that the earth was empty at that point of time and you say that is how the earth was created by the LORD. However, the following verse proves you are wrong because it says that the LORD did NOT create it empty:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

This alone proves that the meaning you place on Genesis 1:2 is in error. That verse is not describing how it was created. This verse alone destroys your whole argument.

Bearing false witness is a sin, Jerry. You should repent.

I did not bear false witnessed but instead you are so lacking in spiritual discernment you were unable to understand my argument.

Now it is time for you to argue that the word "empty" doesn't mean "empty."

 

[JudgeRightly]

You agree that you are saying that the earth came into existence first and then it was formed.

So let us look at this verse:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

According to your ideas the LORD created the earth first and when He created it He did not create it to be empty. However, you say that the following verse describes how the LORD created it:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

The Hebrew word translated "void" means "emptiness, void, waste" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

Genesis 1:2 makes it plain that the earth was empty at that point of time and you say that is how the earth was created by the LORD. However, the following verse proves you are wrong because it says that the LORD did NOT create it empty:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

This alone proves that the meaning you place on Genesis 1:2 is in error. That verse is not describing how it was created. This verse alone destroys your whole argument.



I did not bear false witnessed but instead you are so lacking in spiritual discernment you were unable to understand my argument.

Now it is time for you to argue that the word "empty" doesn't mean "empty."

Jerry, again, I have challenged a fundamental premise of your position.

I would appreciate it if you would address the issue I brought up.

With your position, you're saying that God DID create the world in vain, because He then had to make it again. Your fundamental premise is completely invalidated by the fact that Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create it in vain. That means He didn't create the earth fully formed, and then an untold number of years had to remake it because it had been destroyed somehow. Doing so would have been pointless. Vain.

You need to rebut this point, or this conversation will go nowhere.

I will not respond to any more of your points until you respond to this one point of mine, because it is the one you have avoided addressing the most.

 

[Apple7]

How many days did it take until he could talk? I thought he talked his first day.

Why days?

It took a long period of time.

Look at what is listed in Gen 2...Adam worked the garden...Adam named ALL the animals and birds on the planet...and then he discovered that he was lonely.

How in the world could Adam have had time to become lonely in just a day or two with all that work?

No...YEC's, in their attempt to force a young interpretation into the text, and the appearance of age, make Adam into some sort of superman (faster than a speeding bullet!), of which, he most assuredly was not.

 

[Idolater]

Why days?

It took a long period of time.

Look at what is listed in Gen 2...Adam worked the garden...Adam named ALL the animals and birds on the planet...and then he discovered that he was lonely.

How in the world could Adam have had time to become lonely in just a day or two with all that work?

No...YEC's, in their attempt to force a young interpretation into the text, and the appearance of age, make Adam into some sort of superman (faster than a speeding bullet!), of which, he most assuredly was not.

OK. I don't agree with your reading of it, but it's reasonable. I just think that Adam was created a grown man, and I think that the universe was created a 'grown' universe, so it looks older than it is.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, again, I have challenged a fundamental premise of your position.

What I just posted completely destroys your mistaken idea on this subject and it is not diificult to understand. I will start again with what you said here:

God FORMED the earth to be inhabited.

But He can't FORM IT IF IT DOESN'T EXIST!

You agree that you are saying that the earth came into existence first and then it was formed.

So let us look at this verse:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

According to your ideas the LORD created the earth first and when He created it He did not create it to be empty. However, you say that the following verse describes how the LORD created it:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

The Hebrew word translated "void" means "emptiness, void, waste" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

Genesis 1:2 makes it plain that the earth was empty at that point of time and you say that is how the earth was created by the LORD. However, the following verse proves you are wrong because it says that the LORD did NOT create it empty:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

This alone proves that the meaning you place on Genesis 1:2 is in error. That verse is not describing how it was created. This verse alone destroys your whole argument.

Of course I can understand why you no longer want to discuss the verses which we were discussing.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What I just posted completely destroys your mistaken idea on this subject and it is not diificult to understand. I will start again with what you said here:



You agree that you are saying that the earth came into existence first and then it was formed.

So let us look at this verse:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

According to your ideas the LORD created the earth first and when He created it He did not create it to be empty. However, you say that the following verse describes how the LORD created it:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

The Hebrew word translated "void" means "emptiness, void, waste" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

Genesis 1:2 makes it plain that the earth was empty at that point of time and you say that is how the earth was created by the LORD. However, the following verse proves you are wrong because it says that the LORD did NOT create it empty:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

This alone proves that the meaning you place on Genesis 1:2 is in error. That verse is not describing how it was created. This verse alone destroys your whole argument.

Of course I can understand why you no longer want to discuss the verses which we were discussing.

I will not respond to any more of your points until you respond to this one point of mine, because it is the one you have avoided addressing the most.

Jerry, again, I have challenged a fundamental premise of your position.

I would appreciate it if you would address the issue I brought up.

With your position, you're saying that God DID create the world in vain, because He then had to make it again. Your fundamental premise is completely invalidated by the fact that Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create it in vain. That means He didn't create the earth fully formed, and then an untold number of years had to remake it because it had been destroyed somehow. Doing so would have been pointless. Vain.

You need to rebut this point, or this conversation will go nowhere.

I will not respond to any more of your points until you respond to this one point of mine, because it is the one you have avoided addressing the most.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

With your position, you're saying that God DID create the world in vain, because He then had to make it again.

I did not say that He created it again but instead that He renewed and refurnished it.

The facts are not difficult to understand for anyone with an open mind. Let us start with the following verse:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

We know that when the LORD created the earth that He created it not to be empty:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

Despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that when the LORD created the earth he did not created it to be empty you say that the following is describing how the LORD created the earth in the beginning:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Gen.1:5).​

The Hebrew word translated "void" means "emptiness, void, waste" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

It is impossible that what is said at Genesis 1:2 is a describing how the LORD created the earth in the beginning because the following verse states in no uncertain terms that He created it NOT to be empty but to be inhabited:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

Here is what Sir Robert Anderson wrote about this subject:

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS About Science and Religion).​

 

[JudgeRightly]

I did not say that He created it again but instead that He renewed and refurnished it.

Not what I said either, Jerry.

Pay attention and try again:

In Hebrew, "make," "create," and "form" are THREE DIFFERENT WORDS, each with a completely different meaning. They are not interchangable like their english counterparts are.

Now, back to my point:

Jerry, again, I have challenged a fundamental premise of your position.

I would appreciate it if you would address the issue I brought up.

With your position, you're saying that God DID create the world in vain, because He then had to make it again. Your fundamental premise is completely invalidated by the fact that Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create it in vain. That means He didn't create the earth fully formed, and then an untold number of years had to remake it because it had been destroyed somehow. Doing so would have been pointless. Vain.

You need to rebut this point, or this conversation will go nowhere.

I will not respond to any more of your points until you respond to this one point of mine, because it is the one you have avoided addressing the most.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not what I said either, Jerry.

Pay attention and try again:

In Hebrew, "make," "create," and "form" are THREE DIFFERENT WORDS, each with a completely different meaning. They are not interchangable like their english counterparts are.

Let us look at these two verses where "create" and "formed"are used:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed (yatsar) it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

According to you the Hebrew words bara' and yatsar are not interchangable. But when we look at the following two verses it is evident that they are indeed interchangable:

"And God created (bara') great whales, and every living creature that moveth..." (Gen.1:21).​

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed (yatsar) every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air..." (Gen.2:19).​

As usual you just make up things out of thin air in order to try to defend your indefensible ideas. Now I expect you to finally address the following evidence whhich I continue to show you that proves beyond any doubt that your ideas are in error. The facts are not difficult to understand for anyone with an open mind. Let us start with the following verse:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

We know that when the LORD created the earth that He created it not to be empty:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

Despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that when the LORD created the earth he did not created it to be empty you say that the following is describing how the LORD created the earth in the beginning:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Gen.1:5).​

The Hebrew word translated "void" means "emptiness, void, waste" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

It is impossible that what is said at Genesis 1:2 is a describing how the LORD created the earth in the beginning because the following verse states in no uncertain terms that He created it NOT to be empty but to be inhabited:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

Here is what Sir Robert Anderson wrote about this subject:

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS About Science and Religion).​

 

[Apple7]

OK. I don't agree with your reading of it, but it's reasonable. I just think that Adam was created a grown man, and I think that the universe was created a 'grown' universe, so it looks older than it is.

Not only was Adam not created fully grown, but neither was Eve.

 

[Idolater]

Not only was Adam not created fully grown, but neither was Eve.

I figured as much, given your view on Adam. You have a right to your view, I just disagree with it is all.

:e4e:

 

[Jacob]

Is the earth relatively young (6,000-10,000 years old) or is it old (millions or billions of years old)? This thread will discuss this subject. First, let us look at the following two verses which refer to the creation:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

In the beginning the LORD created the earth and formed it to be inhabited. However, sometime after He formed it to be inhabited it became "without form" and dark so that it was no longer fitted to be inhabited:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen.1:5).​

What is said in "bold" in the following statement refers to the earth being inhabited before it was in a state described as being without form:

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS About Science and Religion).​

Sometime after the world was no longer habitable the LORD began to re-form both the earth and the heavens to make it habitable and that took six days. So in the debate between Christian about whether the earth is young or old I say that it is old.

Jerry,

Hi. I have been both a young earth creationist and an old earth creationist. However, when I was an old earth creationist I believed in a young mankind, with the Biblical evidence as the proof. We can calculate using when people were born back about 6,000 years. Then we have the days of creation, six, as they are in Genesis. So whether young earth or old earth or neither you have how old mankind is, and that disagrees with at least one view of an old earth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Let us look at these two verses where "create" and "formed"are used:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed (yatsar) it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

According to you the Hebrew words bara' and yatsar are not interchangable. But when we look at the following two verses it is evident that they are indeed interchangable:

"And God created (bara') great whales, and every living creature that moveth..." (Gen.1:21).​

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed (yatsar) every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air..." (Gen.2:19).​

As usual you just make up things out of thin air in order to try to defend your indefensible ideas. Now I expect you to finally address the following evidence whhich I continue to show you that proves beyond any doubt that your ideas are in error. The facts are not difficult to understand for anyone with an open mind. Let us start with the following verse:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

We know that when the LORD created the earth that He created it not to be empty:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

Despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that when the LORD created the earth he did not created it to be empty you say that the following is describing how the LORD created the earth in the beginning:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Gen.1:5).​

The Hebrew word translated "void" means "emptiness, void, waste" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

It is impossible that what is said at Genesis 1:2 is a describing how the LORD created the earth in the beginning because the following verse states in no uncertain terms that He created it NOT to be empty but to be inhabited:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

Here is what Sir Robert Anderson wrote about this subject:

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS About Science and Religion).​

You're still avoiding answering this challenge to your fundamental premise.

Or have you forgotten:

I will not respond to any more of your points until you respond to this one point of mine, because it is the one you have avoided addressing the most.

Jerry, again, I have challenged a fundamental premise of your position.

I would appreciate it if you would address the issue I brought up.

With your position, you're saying that God DID create the world in vain, because He then had to make it again. Your fundamental premise is completely invalidated by the fact that Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create it in vain. That means He didn't create the earth fully formed, and then an untold number of years had to remake it because it had been destroyed somehow. Doing so would have been pointless. Vain.

You need to rebut this point, or this conversation will go nowhere.

I will not respond to any more of your points until you respond to this one point of mine, because it is the one you have avoided addressing the most.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're still avoiding answering this challenge to your fundamental premise.

Of course you never answered my comments about what you said here:

Not what I said either, Jerry.

Pay attention and try again:

In Hebrew, "make," "create," and "form" are THREE DIFFERENT WORDS, each with a completely different meaning. They are not interchangable like their english counterparts are.

You pay attention for once, JudgeRightly.

Let us look at these two verses where "create" and "formed" are used:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed (yatsar) it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

According to you the Hebrew words bara' and yatsar are not interchangable. But when we look at the following two verses it is evident that they are indeed interchangable:

"And God created (bara') great whales, and every living creature that moveth..." (Gen.1:21).​

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed (yatsar) every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air..." (Gen.2:19).​

All of this is way over your head because you know nothing about the subject we are discussing. You just make things up out of thin air in order to try to defend your mistaken ideas.

You prove that you are not serious about this subject because you always look for excuses so you don't have to answer the facts. Again, you said:

In Hebrew, "make," "create," and "form" are THREE DIFFERENT WORDS, each with a completely different meaning. They are not interchangable like their english counterparts are.

I just proved you wrong and now we will see if you once again make excuses for not answering my points.

Your fundamental premise is completely invalidated by the fact that Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create it in vain. That means He didn't create the earth fully formed, and then an untold number of years had to remake it because it had been destroyed somehow.

So because Isaiah 45:18 says that the LORD didn't create the earth in vain means that He didn't create it fully formed.

That is ridiculous and I never said that.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So because Isaiah 45:18 says that the LORD didn't create the earth in vain means that He didn't create it fully formed.

That is ridiculous and I never said that.

Is your position not the following:

God created the earth fully formed (perhaps in an instant), and that an unknown amount of time later, it had become without form, and void, through some cause external to God, and so God remade the earth in six days.

 

[way 2 go]

Not only was Adam not created fully grown, but neither was Eve.

:nono:
old enough for : And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth"

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is your position not the following:

God created the earth fully formed (perhaps in an instant), and that an unknown amount of time later, it had become without form, and void, through some cause external to God, and so God remade the earth in six days.

Yes, that is my position. In the beginning the earth was created to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

But later the earth became vacant and therefore not inhabited:

"Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos" (Gen.1:1-2).​

The Hebrew word translated "vacant" in this verse means "something void and empty" so it is obvious that Genesis 1:2 is not referring to the way it was created in the beginning because He formed it to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,

Hi. I have been both a young earth creationist and an old earth creationist. However, when I was an old earth creationist I believed in a young mankind, with the Biblical evidence as the proof. We can calculate using when people were born back about 6,000 years. Then we have the days of creation, six, as they are in Genesis. So whether young earth or old earth or neither you have how old mankind is, and that disagrees with at least one view of an old earth.

I believe that the earth is old and the idea that people have only been on the earth around 6,000 years does not prove that the earth is young or disprove that it is old.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, that is my position. In the beginning the earth was created to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

But later the earth became vacant and therefore not inhabited:

"Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos" (Gen.1:1-2).​

The Hebrew word translated "vacant" in this verse means "something void and empty" so it is obvious that Genesis 1:2 is not referring to the way it was created in the beginning because He formed it to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

So then, God DID create the world in vain, because it had become uninhabited and without form, even though He had created it fully formed and inhabited.

He did something that ended up being completely futile, pointless, all for nought.

That's what VAIN MEANS!

Your position is such that it violates Isaiah 45:18 BY DEFINITION!

 

[Jacob]

I believe that the earth is old and the idea that people have only been on the earth around 6,000 years does not prove that the earth is young or disprove that it is old.

Fair enough.

Do you believe that the order of the six days of creation is important?