YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN, John 3:7
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Everything in the Bible is about something in the distant past, but that does not mean that it is not relevant for today.
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Body part
Instead of your false accusations and your "I'm the only saved person on TOL" attitude, address what I said in this post: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?p=5303937#post5303937
You and John W. are as spiritually dead as a rock. If the law has not been abolished for the Christian then no one can be saved.
"Because the law works wrath: for where there is no law there is no transgression" Romans 4:15.
We are under grace, not law, Galatians 5:4.
Right Divider
Body part
Of course you will not address what anyone says. You just keep your eyes and ears closed and make false accusations instead.
Quite the faithful one you turned out to be. No, you're a liar instead.
Is Romans 4:15 about how the Gentiles did not have the Law?
No, you do not, as you have satanically deleted 3/4, under the guise of "freedom."
Observe the deception, as this demon again posts verses in isolation, deleting those that precede and follow isolated verses, and cannot see the "connection" Paul is making, with Exodus 34:
2 Corinthians 3 KJV
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
The vail over the Old Covenant, not the Old Covenant itself, covering Moses ' face,ceases. Thus, in the "new" covenant, the "old" covenant begins to shine uncovered in the LORD God"s own radiant glory. It is therefore in no way removed or has ceased, or could be forgotten. The "new" covenant is nothing else but the unveiled "old" covenant that is now not covered anymore.
Paul twice says that something was done away with, "abolished:"
The Apostle Paul states twice in chapter 3 of Corinthians(which Pate ignores/deletes){ that something is "done away" with or "abolished."
2 Corinthians 3 KJV
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
13 and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
It is not referencing the law of God, as being done way with, abolished, as scripture testifies that it will last "for ever:
Exodus. 12:14-17 KJV
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. 15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. 16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. 17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:24 KJV
24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
Exodus. 27:21 KJV
21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the Lord: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
Exodus 28:43 KJV
43 and they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
Exodus 29:28 KJV
28 and it shall be Aaron’s and his sons’ by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the Lord.
Exodus 30:21 KJV
21 so they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
Exodus 31:16-17 KJV
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Leviticus 10 KJV
15 The heave shoulder and the wave breast shall they bring with the offerings made by fire of the fat, to wave it for a wave offering before the Lord; and it shall be thine, and thy sons’ with thee, by a statute for ever; as the Lord hath commanded.
.................and on, and on...
7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment;all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever,and are done in truth and uprightness.
The context of 2 Corinthians 3 KJV? Paul speaks here of the "new testament," which is not of "the letter, but of the spirit"-verse 6. Thus, his point-there is a difference between the old covenant, and the news,the difference being the Spirit of God in our hearts. In the OC, the law was written on stone-verse 7-" written and engraven in stones." The children of Israel were expected to follow it, but could not, as it was a "slave driver." They were expected to follow it, but could not perform their duties. The difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, verse 6 " not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life," is not whether or not the children of Israel should follow,practice the law, which Paul says is spiritual, good, not void, but how fallen creatures are empowered to practice the law, which, by definition, exists. The "letter of the law" is us practicing the law in our own power, which Paul explains at length in Romans, particularly Romans 7 KJV. The spirit of the law is the Holy Spirit empowering us to follow God's holy law. Thus, in the future, under the super natural empowering of the Holy Spirit, one of the provision of the NC, the remnant of the nation of Israel will "cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."-Ezekiel 36:27 KJV . Thus, Paul is reaffirming the following of God's law, not by our might, which is walking according to the flesh, but by the Holy Spirit.
But if the law, which Paul calls the "ministration of death," under one's own power, was still "glorious," how much more the "ministration of the spirit" will be glorious...
Verses 7-8
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Paul's logical expounding....The law is not "done away," "abolished." Nea,since the law was glorious how much more will the spirit be. Even though the law was a "ministration of death" because the children of Israel could not fulfill their duties under it,under their own power, it was still glorious. Thus, in fact, it was so glorious that Moses face shone gloriously/brightly as he received it.
Survey Exodus 34 KJV, which Pate deletes, thinks is worthless, not to be "used," studied, or learned from.
How much more the "ministration of the spirit" be glorious because they/we now can fulfill our duties. This is Paul's point in chapter 3. That is, since the holy law of God was glorious, even though no one can fulfill it, how much more will the Spirit be glorious, because the Spirit will empower us fulfill it(In different manners, however, to the nation of Israel, vs. the boc-another thread). The troubling phrase to most Christians....Verse 7's "which glory was to be done away."
Survey Exodus 34 KJV...
Moses spoke face to face with the living God. Something quite out of the ordinary occurred, to which Paul in 2 Cor. was alluding-Exodus 34 KJV
His servant Moses penned:
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses’ hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai. 33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. 34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. 35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
This is what Paul was referencing in 2 Corinthians. The LORD God's servant Moses' face shown, after speaking with the LORD God..."the glory of his countenance"(2 Cor. 3:7 KJV)This causes him to put a vail over his face..."..."And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face," so the children of Israel could see him, until Moses went back to speak with God. This "miracle" faded away, for Moses' face did not continue to shine forever. The Apostle Paul is speaking of Moses face/vail being "done away" with, not the holy, spiritual law of God. The context here is clearly in reference to Moses' face vanishing away.
Paul affirms this in 2 Corinthians 3 KJV, saying:
2 Cor. 3:13 KJV
and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Paul references Moses' face, which he put a vail over. Per Exodus 34 KJV, the children of Israel could not look "face -to-face," upon the face of their leader Moses, without the vail. The children of Israel could not "stedfastly look" toward his face, which is what was "abolished." The LORD God did not abolish Moses' face, nor did it "vanish" away. Did Moses' face vanish away? Did the the shining of Moses face faded away? From the context of 2 Corinthians 3 KJV, Moses' shining face is that which was "done away" with or "abolished." Obviously his face was not "abolished;" Nea, rather it was the glory of the LORD faded away from his face, was abolished from his face.
2 Corinthians 3 ff does not abolish the forever, spiritual, good, holy law of God, but rather uses the glory of Moses' face as an example to show how much better, superior, the "new" covenant is, s compared to the old. The holy law of God law is so glorious, that Moses' face shown gloriously as he received it, yet it was still an instrument of death, because we could not follow it, due to what the "unregenerated" person has within him/her. The "new" covenant is even more glorious,in that we have the promised Holy Spirit, empowering us to follow the law of God. Thus, Paul is affirming that if the old covenant, which brought death to us because we could not "do it," was glorious, how much more the "new" covenant with the empowerment of His Holy Spirit, be glorious.
=spam, as he asserts that Christ did not die for our sins,sin debt, but instead, died to abolish His own good, holy, spiritual law, so that there is no sin debt/IOU/transgression for which He might die, in our place, paying the penalty, the IOU, the debt, and so that there is no condemnation/judgment possible, thus Pate, again, on record asserts that the Lord Jesus Christ DID NOT TAKE OUR PLACE, TAKING THE JUDGMENT/CONDEMNATION, IN OUR PLACE, FOR BREAKING, BY DEFINITION, HIS EXISTING LAW.
=He denies the substitutionary atonement-ON RECORD-again.
No, you, on record, assert that the OT no longer exists, and no one should "use" it today, you habitual liar.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Please allow me to make just a couple of observations. First of all, the Gentiles were never under "the" law (Ro.2:14). At Romans 2 Paul speaks about the Jews being judged by "the law" and the Gentiles by the law written in their hearts of which the conscience bears witness.
In the following verse when Paul uses the word "law" there is no definite article preceding it, so he is speaking of both "the" law and the "law written in the heart of which the conscience bears witness":
"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes" (Ro.10:4).
Those who believe, whether it be a Jew or a Gentile, will not be judged when it comes to their personal righteousness because of the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the Cross. At the moment of belief the righteousness of God apart from law is imputed to believers (Ro.3:21-24).
That explains why the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that those who "believe" have eternal life and will not be judged:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
The whole world is under the law including the Gentiles, Romans 3:19. The rest of your post I agree with.
There is no saving doctrine in the Old Testament other than, "The Just Shall Live By Faith".
The Old Testament along with the Old Covenant is now nothing but history and is fading away, Hebrews 8:13.
All that Jesus is and all that Jesus did is for our salvation and justification. That is about as substitutionary and representative as one can get.
I see that you are still into the Old Testament. This is why you are as spiritually dead as a rock.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let's look at what Paul wrote here:
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Ro.2:14-15).
Here the Greek word translated "have" is in the present tense. That means that at the time when Paul wrote the epistle to the Romans the Gentiles were not under the law of Moses. Besides that, Paul speaks of people without the law in the following verse so he is obviously referring to the Gentiles who will be judged by their conscience and not by "the law" of Moses.
"For as many as have sinned without the Law also will perish without the Law; and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law" (Ro.2:12).
Let us look at the verse you quoted in its context which you think proves that the Gentiles were under the law of Moses:
"There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; 20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. 21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets" (Ro.3:18-21).
In verses 18 and the verses preceding it Paul is speaking of mankind in general and says that all are under sin and then he speaks of those who are under the law (the Israelites) as his final proof that all are under sin. And then the words which follow in verse 20 Paul is speaking about those under "law" (Without the definite article, so the word "law" is referring to both "the" law and "the law written in the hearts of which the conscience bears witness."
John F. Walvoord, the second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, discusses the presence or the absence of the definite article before the Greek noun translated "law":
"It is obvious that there must be some meaning to the use of the article or its absence, particularly when we observe careful distinction often in the same verse of Scripture. It is the writer's contention that the article when used has some significance, and when it is not used there must be some reason for its absence. He (Paul) therefore concludes in 3:20 that 'by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified.' As the 'law' includes both Jews and Gentiles in this summary, it is clear that it has the general meaning of any moral law" [emphasis added] (Walvoord, "Law in the Epistle to the Romans," Bibliotheca Sacra, Jan., 1937, [Vol. 94, #373], 17,21).
As Walvoord says, at Romans 3:20 the word "law" applies to both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, any translation which renders the passage as "the law" is in error because the Gentiles were never given "the law." The correct translation is "law," and in this case "law" includes both "the" law as well as "the law written on their hearts, that law to which the conscience bears witness" (Ro.2:15).
What Paul is saying is... That if you are a Gentile and you are trying to be justified by your obedience or good works, then you are under the law and will be judged by the law, Romans 2:14, 15.
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Body part
Well, it's a good thing that those of us in the body of Christ know that we are not under the law for righteousness.
Irrelevant to my/your argument, you dementia minded fool.
Caught, in another lie-"is fading away"
Habitual liar, of TOL.Even you know it.
No, substitutionary atonement is based upon the premise, fool, that we have broken God's, BY DEFINITION, good, spiritual, for ever lasting holy law, and the resulting penalty, our sin debt, must be paid, and that sin, defined by God's same EXISTING good, spiritual, for ever lasting law must be judged, condemned, and that justice, since we have a holy, justice God, must be judged/condemned. And thus, Christ is that substitute, for us. You deny that, as you assert that Christ did not die for our sins,sin debt, but instead, died to abolish His own good, holy, spiritual law, so that there is no sin debt/IOU/transgression for which He might die, in our place, paying the penalty, the IOU, the debt, and so that there is no condemnation/judgment possible, thus you, again, on record assert that the Lord Jesus Christ DID NOT TAKE OUR PLACE, TAKING THE JUDGMENT/CONDEMNATION, IN OUR PLACE, FOR BREAKING, BY DEFINITION, HIS EXISTING LAW.
=He denies the substitutionary atonement-ON RECORD-again.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Gentiles were never under "the law." You failed to address what I said about Romans 2:12 and the fact that Paul uses the "present" tense at Romans 3:18-21.