1. Do you claim to be a spiritual Jew?
2. The Olive Tree remains Israel's because God is not done with Israel.
You still have not answered who do you think the Remnant is?
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
ECT WOOD, HAY, AND JERRY
- Thread starter intojoy
- Start date
1. Do you claim to be a spiritual Jew?
2. The Olive Tree remains Israel's because God is not done with Israel.
You still have not answered who do you think the Remnant is?
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You said that Israel is now receiving the blessings of the Olive Tree.
That idea is ridiculous because now Israel has been cast aside.
I told you that the remnant is the believing Jews and they are the remnant of the same nation which has been cast aside.
Jews in the Body are not the Believing Remnant of Israel.
Israel is in Uncircumcision til the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Just another nation proven under sin.
Any Jew who comes to faith today, does so as a member of just one more people now in Uncircumcision.
Paul's aspect of the gospel of Christ had been to the heathen, and "as an heathen" is what Israel was, and presently remains; this side of their fall, and temporary setting aside.
Said aspect of the gospel of Christ this side of Israel's fall and temporary setting aside, is how one of said Lo Ammi nation, is saved during this Mystery age - as a Gentile.
No...special...status.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul was among the believing remnant of Israel.
Are you saying that he wasn't in the Body of Christ?
Good question, as scripture uses the term for a smaller group within a whole group, or just simply the remaining ones of the whole group.
No. He was not.
He was saved after God concluded Unbelieving Israel as having continued in the Uncircumcision of their hearts; Acts 7; Romans 2 and 3 and 11.
When he was saved, he was in Unbelief or Uncircumcision.
His point in Romans 11 is that, although Unbelieving Israel has been concluded in Unbelief; God is not through with Israel. That it only looked as if God was through with Israel.
In this, Paul was not only the first member of God's New Creature this side of Israel's fall, and temporary setting aside, but his salvation when he was in Unbelief, typifies Israel's future salvation when they too will look at Him Who they pierced, while in Unbelief.
At which point, theirs will also be Paul's shock that Jesus was the Christ.
This had been Paul's shocking experience of Israel's Messiah while he was yet in the Uncircumcision of his heart - the shock of Paul's experience of Israel's Messiah, as one born out of, or before his nation's due time salvation...
Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
This will be his nation's shocking encounter with said Messiah - their realization they have been in the Uncircumcision of their hearts...
Their shock when they see face to face Who has delivered them - Jesus of Nazareth...
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
He was not of the Believing Remnant.
Nor could he be - for He had blasphemed the Spirit, Matt. 10:30-32.
If I give you a ride in my car, you are benefiting from my car. The olive tree belongs to Israel. The Remnant is receiving the blessings of that tree through the body of Christ with the gentile believers together. That doesn't mean that the tree isn't still Israel's. It is. Israel the whole is set aside, the Remnant is not set aside at all according to Paul. He says that the gentile believers are made partakers of the Jewish spiritual blessings, you say they are overtakers. You say there is no distinction between Jew and gentile, a lie.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Alright, massa! You's a good massa; thanks for the ride :chuckle:
The doctrine of the Remnant of Israel means that there are always some who believe within the Jewish nation as a whole, and all those who believe constitute the Remnant of Israel. Thus there are two Israels: Israel the Whole and Israel the Remnant. Ethnically, the two are the same, but spiritually , they are not. The Remnant at any point of history may be large or small, but there is never a time when it is non-existent, except immediately after the Rapture.
A Fruchtenbaum
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Which ones are those?
If you want the truth concerning the symbolism of the Olive Tree then first let us look at this verse:
"The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken" (Jer.11:16).
Notice that the LORD "called" Israel a green olive tree. Why did He kindle fire upon it? Because the tree was supposed to bear fruit and it wasn't. What fruit was Israel supposed to bring forth?:
"The oath which He swore to our Father, Abraham, that He would grant unto us that we, being delivered out of the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him, all the days of our lives" (Lk.1:73-75).
The nation was to be a channel of blessing to the world, and one of the duties assigned to that nation was the stewardship to be a witness to the fact of the existence of God and that there is only one God:
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God" (Isa.43:10-12).
When the words in regard to the Olive Tree which I quoted were written the LORD was provoked to anger because the Jews were "offering incense to Baal" (V.17).
The Olive Tree represents fruit bearing, specifically serving the LORD to bring the knowledge of Him to the world. And it was Israel's duty to bring the knowledge of the Lord Jesus to the entire world. When Israel rejected her promised Messiah that nation was no longer called the Olive Tree. She was temporarily cast aside and Paul was made the Apostle of the Gentiles.
For you to insist that Israel is now receiving the blessings associated with the Olive Tree betrays an ignorance of both the symbolism of the Olive Tree and of the nature of Israel in the first century and since.
The nations of Israel have proclaimed Christ to the world and provided Bibles to the world in many languages.
Only the Jews rejected Jesus Christ and they still do.
1. Salvation
2. All of the NON material/prosperity aspects of the 4 Jewish covenants such as possessing the land of Israel: “if my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
??2 Chronicles? ?7:14? ?ASV??
3. A study of psalms and proverbs will show us the spiritual blessings available to Israel that has now been made available for the Gentiles thru Christ.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Stick to Calvin Dan Pleaze. You over your head in this thread. You're definitely building with stubble and it's all gonna burn leaving you nothing to show for yourself for a 1000 years.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Hi and KI am not a CLAVINIST as I am a Acts 9 dispensationalist !!
And you did not answer post #37 !!
Calvinist and Acts 2 and Covenant theology have not answers , just like you !!
Nor can you explain how you were saved and where do you go when you die , under a 1P 1P program !!
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Down through history all men who have been saved have been saved in only one way--by grace through faith. So our blessings in this regard are shared by all men and not just the Israelites.
On the other hand, the Lord Jesus said this:
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews" (jn.4:22).
Is that true now?
Has this prophecy been fulfilled?:
"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).
Of course that prophecy has not yet been fulfilled and the nation of Israel is not bearing any fruit for the Lord and she is no longer called the Olive tree. With these things in view it is obvious that the nation of Israel is not now receiving the blessing of the Olive Tree.
You do understand that what you say about those in the Body of Christ partaking in the blessings of the nation of Israel is the teaching of the Progressive Dispensationalists, don't you?
Hi and as a full grown believer I do not have to use TOYS and hope they serve you well !!
dan p
"1. There are 2 Israels.
The Israel of God whom Paul calls the Remnant
The nation of Israel the whole that includes the unbelieving Jews - the majority party."
This follows dispensationalist doctrine, except for the idea about the remnant,that there is a separation forever between those of the physical bloodline and the elect of God not of the physical bloodline.
What New Testament scripture says is that there is a remnant of Old Covenant Israel seen in Romans 11: 1-5, who were a small number that God used to began the New Covenant.
A dispensationalist has a very hard time in following what Paul says in Galatians 3, because he has been taught that there is that separation between those of the physical bloodline, who are the chosen people, and those not of the bloodline. There is no more physical bloodline and no more chosen people according to the physical bloodline. Paul says in Romans 10: 12 that "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." He says in Galatians 3: 28 that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Paul does not mean that there is no difference between those of the physical bloodline who are the elect and those not of the physical bloodline who are the elect, but yet there is a difference. The dispensationalist - or Christian Zionist - cannot come to this knowledge because he has been taught that separation between those of the physical bloodline and those not of the bloodline as though it were a foundation of the Gospel itself.
And nowhere does the New Testament say that the casting away of the multitude of Old Covenant Israel is just temporary and that in the future God will return to a "dispensation" of the law, etc. In fact, relevant scripture says just the opposite.
Jeremiah 18: 1-6, especially 18: 4, says God was to remake Old Covenant Israel, not do away with it for a while and then return to it. There are several scriptures that support this idea, that God remade Old Covenant Israel in Christ into a spiritual house. Luke 1: 68-69 says God redeemed Israel and in doing so raised up a horn of salvation. II Corinthians 3: 7 and 3: 9-11 say that Old Covenant Israel was done away, and Hebrews 10: 9 says Christ too away Old Covenant Israel so he could establish the New Covenant.
"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9 Christian Zionism teaches just the opposite.
The idea in Colossians 2: 16-17 that the things of the Old Covenant were just shadows of the spiritual substance to come in Christ is not teaching that that spiritual substance is only temporary and that God will return to the shadows of the Old Covenant physical stuff and to the requirement of obedience rather than belief and transformation where Christ;s mind enters into his people (the mystery in Colossians 1: 27.
And in the New Covenant the elect are in I Peter 2: 5 built up as a spiritual house, while in I Peter 2: 9 "ye" are said to be a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation or holy people, and a peculiar people. Remember that God said in Exodus 19: 5--6 that if "ye" obey his voice and keep his commandments he will be a peculiar treasure to him above all people, and be a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation or holy people. What was promised in Exodus 19, based upon obedience, came to fulfillment spiritually in I Peter 2: 9.
"He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith,"
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."
"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
The Christian Zionists cannot fully hear and understand Galatians 3, because it goes against what they have been taught.
The remnant is not fully acknowledged in Christian Zionism. The remnant in Romans 9: is from Isaiah 10: 20-23 and Paul qutes this in Romans 9: 27-28, and makes use of the remnant in Romans 11: 1-5 to say that the New Covenant begins from a small remnant of Old Covenant Israel.
The remnant in Revelation 12: 15-17 is a small group in the New Covenant who are seen there in a spiritual conflict with the dragon-serpent. The 144,000 are a remnant seen in Revelation 7 and in Revelation 14 where they sit with the Lamb on Mount Zion, or in a spiritually high place, follow the Lamb where he leads and are not deceptive. They are also a group in the New Covenant period.
The Israel of God in Galatians 6: 16 is all the elect of God, as being different from that Israel in Romans 9: 8 who Paul calls the children of the flesh, implying the are of the physical bloodline but being only of the flesh line, and not of faith, they are not the chilren of God.
The Israel of God whom Paul calls the Remnant
The nation of Israel the whole that includes the unbelieving Jews - the majority party."
This follows dispensationalist doctrine, except for the idea about the remnant,that there is a separation forever between those of the physical bloodline and the elect of God not of the physical bloodline.
What New Testament scripture says is that there is a remnant of Old Covenant Israel seen in Romans 11: 1-5, who were a small number that God used to began the New Covenant.
A dispensationalist has a very hard time in following what Paul says in Galatians 3, because he has been taught that there is that separation between those of the physical bloodline, who are the chosen people, and those not of the bloodline. There is no more physical bloodline and no more chosen people according to the physical bloodline. Paul says in Romans 10: 12 that "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." He says in Galatians 3: 28 that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Paul does not mean that there is no difference between those of the physical bloodline who are the elect and those not of the physical bloodline who are the elect, but yet there is a difference. The dispensationalist - or Christian Zionist - cannot come to this knowledge because he has been taught that separation between those of the physical bloodline and those not of the bloodline as though it were a foundation of the Gospel itself.
And nowhere does the New Testament say that the casting away of the multitude of Old Covenant Israel is just temporary and that in the future God will return to a "dispensation" of the law, etc. In fact, relevant scripture says just the opposite.
Jeremiah 18: 1-6, especially 18: 4, says God was to remake Old Covenant Israel, not do away with it for a while and then return to it. There are several scriptures that support this idea, that God remade Old Covenant Israel in Christ into a spiritual house. Luke 1: 68-69 says God redeemed Israel and in doing so raised up a horn of salvation. II Corinthians 3: 7 and 3: 9-11 say that Old Covenant Israel was done away, and Hebrews 10: 9 says Christ too away Old Covenant Israel so he could establish the New Covenant.
"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9 Christian Zionism teaches just the opposite.
The idea in Colossians 2: 16-17 that the things of the Old Covenant were just shadows of the spiritual substance to come in Christ is not teaching that that spiritual substance is only temporary and that God will return to the shadows of the Old Covenant physical stuff and to the requirement of obedience rather than belief and transformation where Christ;s mind enters into his people (the mystery in Colossians 1: 27.
And in the New Covenant the elect are in I Peter 2: 5 built up as a spiritual house, while in I Peter 2: 9 "ye" are said to be a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation or holy people, and a peculiar people. Remember that God said in Exodus 19: 5--6 that if "ye" obey his voice and keep his commandments he will be a peculiar treasure to him above all people, and be a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation or holy people. What was promised in Exodus 19, based upon obedience, came to fulfillment spiritually in I Peter 2: 9.
"He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith,"
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."
"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
The Christian Zionists cannot fully hear and understand Galatians 3, because it goes against what they have been taught.
The remnant is not fully acknowledged in Christian Zionism. The remnant in Romans 9: is from Isaiah 10: 20-23 and Paul qutes this in Romans 9: 27-28, and makes use of the remnant in Romans 11: 1-5 to say that the New Covenant begins from a small remnant of Old Covenant Israel.
The remnant in Revelation 12: 15-17 is a small group in the New Covenant who are seen there in a spiritual conflict with the dragon-serpent. The 144,000 are a remnant seen in Revelation 7 and in Revelation 14 where they sit with the Lamb on Mount Zion, or in a spiritually high place, follow the Lamb where he leads and are not deceptive. They are also a group in the New Covenant period.
The Israel of God in Galatians 6: 16 is all the elect of God, as being different from that Israel in Romans 9: 8 who Paul calls the children of the flesh, implying the are of the physical bloodline but being only of the flesh line, and not of faith, they are not the chilren of God.
Last edited: