ECT WOOD, HAY, AND JERRY

[intojoy]

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal.6:15-16).​

Here Paul is using the words "the Israel of God" in a figurative sense. He is speaking about two different groups, both belonging to the Body of Christ. The Gentile believers and the Jewish believers.

If we are going to take what Paul said here literally then we must believe that the Jewish believers were a group separate from the Gentiles members of the Body. But since they aren't we can understand that Paul was using the phrase the "Israel of God" to refer to the Jewish believers and not in the sense they they the only ones who belonged to the nation of israel.



At the present time and starting in the first century the nation of Israel has been temporally set aside:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

Paul does not say that just some of them have been cast aside but the nation as a whole. And that is what Paul meant here:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Ro.11:32).​

Of course the LORD did not conclude every "individual" out of Israel in unbelief but instead the nation as a whole.

I appreciate this attempt but you have to do better! Paul said it not me:

“But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:”
??Romans? ?9:6? ?ASV??
http://bible.com/12/rom.9.6.asv


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I appreciate this attempt but you have to do better! Paul said it not me:

“But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:”
??Romans? ?9:6? ?ASV??

Paul was just repeating what he had previously said at Romans 2;28-29. He did not say that the Jewish believers made up the entire nation of Israel. At the present time and starting in the first century the nation of Israel has been temporally set aside:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

Paul does not say that just some of them have been cast aside but the nation as a whole. And that is what Paul meant here:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Ro.11:32).​

Of course the LORD did not conclude every "individual" out of Israel in unbelief but instead the nation as a whole. But according to your ideas Israel has not been set aside at all.

I find it hard to believe that Arnold is actually teaching your ideas. Would you please quote him where he actually teaches your idea?

 

[Danoh]

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal.6:15-16).​

Here Paul is using the words "the Israel of God" in a figurative sense. He is speaking about two different groups, both belonging to the Body of Christ. The Gentile believers and the Jewish believers.

If we are going to take what Paul said here literally then we must believe that the Jewish believers were a group separate from the Gentiles members of the Body. But since they aren't we can understand that Paul was using the phrase the "Israel of God" to refer to the Jewish believers and not in the sense they they the only ones who belonged to the nation of israel.



At the present time and starting in the first century the nation of Israel has been temporally set aside:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

Paul does not say that just some of them have been cast aside but the nation as a whole. And that is what Paul meant here:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Ro.11:32).​

Of course the LORD did not conclude every "individual" out of Israel in unbelief but instead the nation as a whole.

Careful, there, bro - you've wandered into the land of the Hybrids :chuckle:

Both the Body of Christ (formerly lost Jews and Gentiles this side of Israel's fall and temporary setting aside) and the Israel of God (Israel's Believing "remnant according to the election of grace" prior to Israel's fall) Rom. 11; ended up with ongoing ministries at Galatia.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 16:8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.

Acts 18:23 And after he had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.

Galatians 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

 

[steko]

peace be upon them,
GEEKS

Amen! Peace upon them Geeks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Careful, there, bro - you've wandered into the land of the Hybrids

Nothing which you said or quoted demonstrates that anything which I said is in error.

 

[Danoh]

Nothing which you said or quoted demonstrates that anything which I said is in error.

Both the Body and the Israel of God had assemblies in Galatia.

The peace Paul wished was upon both groups.

Both had had that peace after the Jerusalem council.

And now here these Galatians were...at odds, once more...over the same issue.

The Israel of God is not referring to the Body.

Paul is reminding them of the peace over said issue that the ruling at Jerusalem had then accomplished.

It is why he also brings up the problem brought on by Peter's dissimulation over this same issue, in Gal. 2.

 

[Interplanner]

Paul was just repeating what he had previously said at Romans 2;28-29. He did not say that the Jewish believers made up the entire nation of Israel. At the present time and starting in the first century the nation of Israel has been temporally set aside:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

Paul does not say that just some of them have been cast aside but the nation as a whole. And that is what Paul meant here:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Ro.11:32).​

Of course the LORD did not conclude every "individual" out of Israel in unbelief but instead the nation as a whole. But according to your ideas Israel has not been set aside at all.

I find it hard to believe that Arnold is actually teaching your ideas. Would you please quote him where he actually teaches your idea?

If you would stay in a passage, you would see that he meant that anyone who had faith was the seed of Abraham. Instead you skip all over.

 

[intojoy]

Paul was just repeating what he had previously said at Romans 2;28-29. He did not say that the Jewish believers made up the entire nation of Israel. At the present time and starting in the first century the nation of Israel has been temporally set aside:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

Paul does not say that just some of them have been cast aside but the nation as a whole. And that is what Paul meant here:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Ro.11:32).​

Of course the LORD did not conclude every "individual" out of Israel in unbelief but instead the nation as a whole. But according to your ideas Israel has not been set aside at all.

I find it hard to believe that Arnold is actually teaching your ideas. Would you please quote him where he actually teaches your idea?

Correction:

1. There are 2 Israels.

The Israel of God whom Paul calls the Remnant

The nation of Israel the whole that includes the unbelieving Jews - the majority party.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[intojoy]

Correction:

1. There are 2 Israels.

The Israel of God whom Paul calls the Remnant

The nation of Israel the whole that includes the unbelieving Jews - the majority party.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

The doctrine of the Remnant starts here:
“And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for Jehovah, the God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword: and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before Jehovah. And, behold, Jehovah passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before Jehovah; but Jehovah was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but Jehovah was not in the earthquake: and after the earthquake a fire; but Jehovah was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entrance of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for Jehovah, the God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.”
??1 Kings? ?19:9-14? ?ASV??
http://bible.com/12/1ki.19.9-14.asv


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

Correction:

1. There are 2 Israels.

The Israel of God whom Paul calls the Remnant

The nation of Israel the whole that includes the unbelieving Jews - the majority party.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Yep.

You see this "of God" here...

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That is this "of God" here...

Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

In contrast to Israel - not of Israel....

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Both the Body and the Israel of God had assemblies in Galatia.

Here is what Paul wrote to all the Gentile believers and all the Jewish believers:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You asked which commentary I used for my verse by verse commentary I'm working on.
I'm using the one that sticks to the strict literal hermeneutic, Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum's.

Well then give me Arnold's commentary on this verse:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

 

[glorydaz]

But at the present time there are no special people to the LORD except those in the Body of Christ and there the Jews and the Greeks are all on the same level (Gal.3:28).

Well, they seem pretty special to me. They have returned to their land and are surrounded by their enemies.

 

[Danoh]

Well then give me Arnold's commentary on this verse:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

Though he starts out rightly asserting that the Olive Tree represents access to blessing - which is accessed by faith - he then goes off into the error others espouse - that Romans 11 is relating that the Gentiles have been made partakers with the Believing Remnant of Israel of the blessing said Olive Tree represents.

Thing is, the Tree represents access to blessing in general: the particular economy determining what said blessing is and or how it is accessed by faith.

As when Abraham believed God 430 years before the Law and his faith alone was reckoned for righteousness.

To that was then added, circumcision as a condition of said access, then the Law...

But now, access by faith is once more without the works of the Law, as He hath concluded all under sin through the Law, that He might have mercy upon all without distinction.

The Tree still represents access, but right now it is not Israel's blessings that it represents.

These blessings here...

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

That was put on hold until this here...

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

In the meantime, the mercy is now Gentile...

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[intojoy]

Though he starts out rightly asserting that the Olive Tree represents access to blessing - which is accessed by faith - he then goes off into the error others espouse - that Romans 11 is relating that the Gentiles have been made partakers with the Believing Remnant of Israel of the blessing said Olive Tree represents.

Thing is, the Tree represents access to blessing in general: the particular economy determining what said blessing is and or how it is accessed by faith.

As when Abraham believed God 430 years before the Law and his faith alone was reckoned for righteousness.

To that was then added, circumcision as a condition of said access, then the Law...

But now, access by faith is once more without the works of the Law, as He hath concluded all under sin through the Law, that He might have mercy upon all without distinction.

The Tree still represents access, but right now it is not Israel's blessings that it represents.

These blessings here...

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

That was put on hold until this here...

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

In the meantime, the mercy is now Gentile...

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Wrong


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[intojoy]

WOOD, HAY, AND JERRY

Well then give me Arnold's commentary on this verse:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

The Purpose of Israel's Stumbling: Romans 11:11-15 Paul again raises a question to be refuted in verse 11a: I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid. The expression I say then raises the question: Did they stumble that they might fall? Was Israel's stumbling in Romans 9:30-33 for the purpose of Israel's falling? Was the purpose so that God could reject and cast off His people? Paul is referring to the majority that did stumble. The Greek word that Paul used for fall refers to “a complete and irrevocable fall.” So, was the stumbling of Israel for the purpose that Israel would irrevocably fall and never rise again? Paul then gave the answer: God forbid. “May it never be!” “Perish the thought!” In the light of God's faithfulness, this is unthinkable. They have stumbled, but it was not for the purpose of falling irrevocably. God planned for Israel to stumble for the purpose of Gentile salvation, but Gentile salvation is subservient or subordinate to Jewish salvation.

Having said this, in verses 11b-15 Paul then spelled out the purpose of Gentile salvation. Verses 11b-14 state: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. In verse 11b, the purpose is to provoke Jews to jealousy. This is a reference to Deuteronomy 32:21, already cited in Romans 10:19. The answer to the question, “Why is God saving Gentiles today?” is to provoke the Jews to jealousy. The expression provoke to jealousy is a Greek word that means “to come alongside someone, causing him to boil or seethe with jealousy .” The reason God is saving Gentiles is so that a believing Gentile will come alongside an unbelieving Jewish person and cause the Jewish person to become jealous because of what the Gentile believer has so that he becomes a believer in the Messiah also.

Verse 12 presents a contrast between the partial and the fullness. Concerning the partial, there is now a reduction of the nation to a Remnant of believers today, but in the future, there will be a national salvation of the nation as a whole and this will be their fulness. Paul points out that since Israel's stumbling was for the purpose of Gentile salvation, which is the riches of the world, the riches of the Gentiles, this fact should lead to some key lessons. The first lesson to learn about the purpose of Israel's stumbling is that Israel did not stumble for an irrevocable fall, rather, it was so salvation could now go out to the Gentiles.

Now that salvation has gone out to the Gentiles, the purpose of Gentile salvation is to provoke the Jews to jealousy and thus to bring them to salvation in verses 13-14. The purpose of Israel's stumbling was Gentile salvation, and the purpose for Gentile salvation is Jewish salvation. This is the methodology by which God has chosen to work.

There is a second lesson to be learned about the purpose of Israel's stumbling in verse 15: For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? The second lesson is that all of this will result in blessings for Israel. Paul states that if the stumbling of Israel meant the reconciliation of the Gentile world, then the receiving of Israel would mean life from the dead. This is the statement of Israel's place in God's blessing. The unbelief of Israel was directed toward the restoration of faith; the fall of Israel was directed toward their ultimate reclamation. Their fulness of verse 12 refers to Israel's complete restoration. If, by the fall of Israel, the Gentiles received the gospel, how much more will the Gentiles be blessed by Israel's return. This is an argument from the lesser to the greater. If the Gentiles have received this much blessing by virtue of Israel's stumbling, just think how much more blessing the Gentiles will have when Israel is saved. This will lead to the Second Coming and the establishment of the Kingdom. This is why Paul labored so hard among the Gentiles. In this way, even more Jews will be provoked to jealousy and believe, and this, in turn, will mean even more blessings for the Gentiles.

The point Paul makes in this section is that it was God's plan for Israel to reject the Messiahship of Jesus; for awhile, the gospel would go out to the Gentiles, during which time they were to provoke Jews to jealousy; until eventually , all Israel is saved. Paul builds upon Isaiah 49:1-13 where Isaiah taught the same thing: that the Messiah would come to Israel; Israel would reject Him, and the Messiah would then, for awhile, become the light to the Gentiles; but eventually , Israel will return to Him and be restored. Paul does not say anything new here; he just points out the way Isaiah 49 is being fulfilled in this day. In verses 1-10, Paul taught that there is still a Remnant coming to saving faith. Now in verses 11-15, he states that the primary way Jews now come to faith is by being provoked to jealousy by Gentile believers.

ariel.org

Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[DAN P]

The Purpose of Israel's Stumbling: Romans 11:11-15 Paul again raises a question to be refuted in verse 11a: I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid. The expression I say then raises the question: Did they stumble that they might fall? Was Israel's stumbling in Romans 9:30-33 for the purpose of Israel's falling? Was the purpose so that God could reject and cast off His people? Paul is referring to the majority that did stumble. The Greek word that Paul used for fall refers to “a complete and irrevocable fall.” So, was the stumbling of Israel for the purpose that Israel would irrevocably fall and never rise again? Paul then gave the answer: God forbid. “May it never be!” “Perish the thought!” In the light of God's faithfulness, this is unthinkable. They have stumbled, but it was not for the purpose of falling irrevocably. God planned for Israel to stumble for the purpose of Gentile salvation, but Gentile salvation is subservient or subordinate to Jewish salvation.

Having said this, in verses 11b-15 Paul then spelled out the purpose of Gentile salvation. Verses 11b-14 state: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. In verse 11b, the purpose is to provoke Jews to jealousy. This is a reference to Deuteronomy 32:21, already cited in Romans 10:19. The answer to the question, “Why is God saving Gentiles today?” is to provoke the Jews to jealousy. The expression provoke to jealousy is a Greek word that means “to come alongside someone, causing him to boil or seethe with jealousy .” The reason God is saving Gentiles is so that a believing Gentile will come alongside an unbelieving Jewish person and cause the Jewish person to become jealous because of what the Gentile believer has so that he becomes a believer in the Messiah also.

Verse 12 presents a contrast between the partial and the fullness. Concerning the partial, there is now a reduction of the nation to a Remnant of believers today, but in the future, there will be a national salvation of the nation as a whole and this will be their fulness. Paul points out that since Israel's stumbling was for the purpose of Gentile salvation, which is the riches of the world, the riches of the Gentiles, this fact should lead to some key lessons. The first lesson to learn about the purpose of Israel's stumbling is that Israel did not stumble for an irrevocable fall, rather, it was so salvation could now go out to the Gentiles.

Now that salvation has gone out to the Gentiles, the purpose of Gentile salvation is to provoke the Jews to jealousy and thus to bring them to salvation in verses 13-14. The purpose of Israel's stumbling was Gentile salvation, and the purpose for Gentile salvation is Jewish salvation. This is the methodology by which God has chosen to work.

There is a second lesson to be learned about the purpose of Israel's stumbling in verse 15: For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? The second lesson is that all of this will result in blessings for Israel. Paul states that if the stumbling of Israel meant the reconciliation of the Gentile world, then the receiving of Israel would mean life from the dead. This is the statement of Israel's place in God's blessing. The unbelief of Israel was directed toward the restoration of faith; the fall of Israel was directed toward their ultimate reclamation. Their fulness of verse 12 refers to Israel's complete restoration. If, by the fall of Israel, the Gentiles received the gospel, how much more will the Gentiles be blessed by Israel's return. This is an argument from the lesser to the greater. If the Gentiles have received this much blessing by virtue of Israel's stumbling, just think how much more blessing the Gentiles will have when Israel is saved. This will lead to the Second Coming and the establishment of the Kingdom. This is why Paul labored so hard among the Gentiles. In this way, even more Jews will be provoked to jealousy and believe, and this, in turn, will mean even more blessings for the Gentiles.

The point Paul makes in this section is that it was God's plan for Israel to reject the Messiahship of Jesus; for awhile, the gospel would go out to the Gentiles, during which time they were to provoke Jews to jealousy; until eventually , all Israel is saved. Paul builds upon Isaiah 49:1-13 where Isaiah taught the same thing: that the Messiah would come to Israel; Israel would reject Him, and the Messiah would then, for awhile, become the light to the Gentiles; but eventually , Israel will return to Him and be restored. Paul does not say anything new here; he just points out the way Isaiah 49 is being fulfilled in this day. In verses 1-10, Paul taught that there is still a Remnant coming to saving faith. Now in verses 11-15, he states that the primary way Jews now come to faith is by being provoked to jealousy by Gentile believers.

ariel.org

Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Hi , Jerry and I am always AMUSED by those that try to use Paul in 1 Cor 3:19 when Israel has been set aside as 2 Cor 3:16 and thsi means tha Jesus ministry with Israel has STOPPED because a VAIL / COVERING HAS been cov ering their HEARTS for over 2000 tears !!

Maybe IJ will tells us how Jews are being saved today ans written in 2 Cor 3:16 says ??

dan p

 

[intojoy]

Hi , Jerry and I am always AMUSED by those that try to use Paul in 1 Cor 3:19 when Israel has been set aside as 2 Cor 3:16 and thsi means tha Jesus ministry with Israel has STOPPED because a VAIL / COVERING HAS been cov ering their HEARTS for over 2000 tears !!

Maybe IJ will tells us how Jews are being saved today ans written in 2 Cor 3:16 says ??

dan p

You're cursing yourself


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is a second lesson to be learned about the purpose of Israel's stumbling in verse 15: For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? The second lesson is that all of this will result in blessings for Israel. Paul states that if the stumbling of Israel meant the reconciliation of the Gentile world, then the receiving of Israel would mean life from the dead.

In Arnold's words in "bold" he admits that the nation of Israel has been temporarily cast aside. So how can the remnant be Israel since that nation has been cast aside?

In what way was Israel temporarily cast aside? According to prophecy the nation of Israel was to be the LORD's agent to bring the Gentiles to salvation:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5).​

Even though the nation rejected her promised Messiah that would not stop the LORD from getting the message of the Lord Jesus to the Gentiles. So the nation of Israel was temporarily set aside as the LORD's agent to bring salvation to the world and Paul was chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. And that is what is being said here:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

Now it is those in the Body of Christ ( made up of both Jews and Gentiles) who have been given the ministry of reconciliation to preach the word of reconciliation in the whole world (2 Cor.5:18-19).

So in their ministry the Jewish believers are ministers from the Body of Christ and not from of the nation of Israel.

 

[intojoy]

WOOD, HAY, AND JERRY

In Arnold's words in "bold" he admits that the nation of Israel has been temporarily cast aside. So how can the remnant be Israel since that nation has been cast aside?
.

The Remnant is the believing portion of Israel. In God's plan there is the material realm and the spiritual realm. Israel as a nation was elected nationally in the material realm and no Jew is saved spiritually because of this national election. He must believe in order to be elected spiritually unto salvation.
Within the material realm Israel has been set aside but in the spiritual realm Jews that believe are, and always were the spiritually saved Remnant of Israel. In the material realm believing Jews have had their national promise of prosperity in the land "set aside." But that was according to the plan God set for them.

There is a Remnant today, who do you think they are?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL