Poly
Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
William Barr: Religion is Under Attack
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
No. The woman in question is making that call...I believe in her moral right to do so.
:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
but you deny her the "moral right" to make the call of devaluing the life of her colicky infant and walking away from it
let's examine this "moral right" you've invented
from my perspective, it's the "moral right" to end a human life, before birth or after birth
how do you define it?
Her right to bodily autonomy. Your account purposefully disregards this key distinction.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
not at all - in fact it's you who ignores her right to bodily autonomy when you deny her the "moral right" to devalue the life of her infant child and abandon it
Lon
Well-known member
I disagree. One, the Gulf War is 'over.' Abortion is not. You are attempting to write something meaningful as a historian, and in this case, I assert there is not enough history AND that we've no idea really where those statistics go from here. Completely erradicated? That'd be history. Continuing up then down again? Seems premature to try and write a summary to me. I quite disagree with you on this instance and believe responsible historians are with me, not you on this.
Different. This is a 'political history of abortion documents' so misnomer.
I appreciate the data, but as you can see on the site, no conclusions are or really can be meaningfully drawn. It is like trying to write 'history' of the war on terror, it simply isn't over yet. "The war so far" is history in the sense that part is over, but it really isn't meaningful until we can draw conclusions in resolve. There is none at present.
Odd. Like "I was a good father, husband, and citizen." I've never seen a tombstone this way. It seems, as you say, it may be an oddity of military graves :think:
:chuckle: break that one down doser.
Praytell how do you abort a birthed child? You're grasping.
Lon
Well-known member
In the past, the 'us/them' stuck pretty well in public mind whether or not a democrat was pro-choice. My mother has always voted Democrat (until this last year, and definitely not Republican). She is far from pro-choice but could not bring herself to embrace much of the Republican agenda. I've grown a bit empathetic to the Republicans regarding business ownership etc. but we grew up hearing that Democrats were for everyday people and the Republicans represented a smaller portion. About the 80's 90's Republicans began gathering up Christians who were disillusioned Democrats or at least supporters. In these last 10 years, it has been very difficult not being disillusioned with Republican politicians as well. We are just looking for sensible moral men who uphold many if not all of our values. I'm not sure if this erases any of the 'us/them' tenor, but this is why it isn't as stark for me today. I'm looking across the aisle and hoping someone else carries my values where they are harder and harder to see in political arenas. :e4e:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
The subject is abortion. Stick to it....I don't need your moronic red herrings.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
what barbie's doing, and failing to acknowledge, is pretending to write a history of a discrete period of the abortion story, in a defined context - ie, American, mid 70's to present
he's also dishonestly failing to consider other factors, such as the decline in the birth rate and the aging population
it would be like me claiming to write a history of the automobile when all I covered was the pony car wars of the 60's
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
no, the subject is the ending of a human life, remember?
and you're the one who brought in the concept of bodily autonomy - was that a red herring?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
the two Bush's were pretty good in that regard, as was Reagan
and Carter
Nixon was, by all accounts, an honorable man when serving as Ike's Veep, but something changed in his psyche during his eight years in the wilderness
or perhaps he was just affected by the darkness that took over the whole country during the JFK/LBJ presidencies
too close to call Obama, I'll start reading historical analyses of his terms in twenty years
pretty sure we all know where the Clintons fall on that continuum :chuckle:
So there's no such thing as American history? America's still here, after all. No, that doesn't make any sense to me. Abortion has a long history...
Book II Elegy XIV: Against Abortion; by Publius Ovidius Naso
Where’s the joy in a girl being free from fighting wars,
unwilling to follow the army and their shields,
if without battle she suffers wounds from her own weapons,
and arms unsure hands to her own doom?
Whoever first taught the destruction of a tender foetus,
deserved to die by her own warlike methods.
No doubt you’d chance your arm in that dismal arena
just to keep your belly free of wrinkles with your crime?
If the same practice had pleased mothers of old,
Humanity would have been destroyed by that violation.
and we’d need a creator again for each of our peoples
to throw the stones that made us onto the empty earth.
Who would have shattered the wealth of Priam, if Thetis,
the sea goddess, had refused to carry her rightful burden?
If Ilia had murdered the twins in her swollen womb,
the founder of my mistress’s City would have been lost.
If Venus had desecrated her belly, pregnant with Aeneas,
Earth would have been bereft of future Caesars.
You too, with your beauty still to be born, would have died,
if your mother had tried what you have done.
I myself would be better to die making love
than have been denied the light of day by my mother.
Why rob the loaded vine of burgeoning grapes,
or pluck the unripe apple with cruel hand?
Let things mature themselves – grow without being forced:
life is a prize that’s worth a little waiting.
Why submit your womb to probing instruments,
or give lethal poison to what is not yet born?
Medea is blamed for sprinkling the blood of her children,
and Itys, slain by his mother, is lamented with tears:
both cruel parents, yet both had bitter reason
to shed blood, revenge on a husband.
Say, what Tereus, what Jason incites you
to pierce your troubled body with your hand?
No tiger in its Armenian lair would do it,
no lioness would dare destroy her foetus.
But tender girls do it, though not un-punished:
often she who kills her child, dies herself.
She dies, and is carried to the pyre with loosened hair,
and whoever looks on cries out: ‘She deserved it!’
But let these words vanish on the ethereal breeze,
and let my imprecations have no weight!
You gods, prosper her: let her first sin go, in safety,
and be satisfied: you can punish her second crime!
Ovid ca. 10 BC
Go to a national cemetery and walk among graves of Vietnam veterans. There's a lot of it. Lots of conventional epitaphs too, but still a lot of humor.
Supposedly W.C. Field's says "All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
But a quick look on the net shows a lot of clever last messages, from the classic "I told you I was sick." to all sorts of last shots.
Don't feed the troll.
Yes I do...via ABORTION remember? Stay on topic.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ok, we're done
once again you can't defend your decision to value a human life differently depending on it's location
instead, you reject reason (a human life has value regardless of its location) and rely on emotion (your position that a woman must not be inconvenienced while pregnant) and irrationality (the value of a human life is dependent on its location)
shoulda known better, but this silly nonsense got my hopes up:
shoulda known you were talking about yourself
Religion is not "under attack" in America and never has been . But unfortunately, certain extremist Christians are out to bring America, the most religiously divers nation which has ever existed, closer and closer to becoming what the very thing founders were utterly opposed to -a Christian theocracy .
Barr is one of these unfortunately . The Trump administration is positively infested with these extremist Christians who have no tolerance for anyone who is not heterosexual evangelical Christian and delude themselves into believing the founders shared their rigid evangelical Christian beliefs and wanted to impose a Christian theocracy on this country .
And Barr's self-righteous blather is utterly hypocritical , because he is a toady of a president who is a phony Christian if there ever was one and who lives a life which makes a mockery of morality, virtue self, control, decency , compassion , etc - everything Christians claim to stand for .
Criticizing these extremist christians harshly and condemning them for their narrow-mindedness, intolerance , self-righteousness and hypocrisy is not an "attack on Christianity ". It is the right thing to do .
Barr is one of these unfortunately . The Trump administration is positively infested with these extremist Christians who have no tolerance for anyone who is not heterosexual evangelical Christian and delude themselves into believing the founders shared their rigid evangelical Christian beliefs and wanted to impose a Christian theocracy on this country .
And Barr's self-righteous blather is utterly hypocritical , because he is a toady of a president who is a phony Christian if there ever was one and who lives a life which makes a mockery of morality, virtue self, control, decency , compassion , etc - everything Christians claim to stand for .
Criticizing these extremist christians harshly and condemning them for their narrow-mindedness, intolerance , self-righteousness and hypocrisy is not an "attack on Christianity ". It is the right thing to do .