William Barr: Religion is Under Attack

[Gary K]

As usual Barbie is lying through his teeth. Here is what is said in the Northwest Ordinance about education.

Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of
mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall
always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without
their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in
just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to
time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with
them.

This says nothing about teaching a document that didn't exist at the time. You can't take him at his word, ever.

 

[The Barbarian]

So you're happy for schools to teach morality and religion, since that was the purpose of that part of the Northwest Ordinance?

"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

It was perfectly legal until the Bill of Rights was ratified. And even then, it was legal by the states until Amendment XIV was ratified. Now no government agency can endorse or deny religion. The rest of it is fine, of course.

As Madison wrote, the fruits of established religion have been:
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, [ca. 20 June] 1785

Madison was entirely correct. Notice we see those same characteristics today, in religious groups that advocate establishment.

Where, pray tell, do you recommend the schools find their teaching for religion and morality?

As I pointed out, Americans quite properly banned the teaching of religion in public schools. Morality generally is taught in terms of citizenship. The most effective and likely the most used:

The Six Pillars of Character® are the core ethical values of CHARACTER COUNTS! These values were identified by a nonpartisan, nonsectarian (secular) group of youth development experts in 1992 as “core ethical values that transcend cultural, religious and socioeconomic differences”.

Each of The Six Pillar of Character traits are used within our CHARACTER COUNTS! program to help instill a positive school climate and a culture of kindness, making schools a safe environment for students to learn.

TRUSTWORTHINESS
Be honest in communications and actions • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends, and country • Keep your promises

RESPECT
Treat others with respect and follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant and accepting of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults, and disagreements

RESPONSIBILITY
Do what you are supposed to do • Plan ahead • Be diligent • Persevere • Do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act • Be accountable for your words, actions and attitudes • Set a good example for others • Choose a positive attitude • Make healthy choices

FAIRNESS
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly • Treat all people fairly

CARING
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Show Empathy • Express gratitude • Forgive others and show mercy • Help people in need • Be charitable and altruistic

CITIZENSHIP
Do your share to make your home, school, community and greater world better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment • Volunteer

https://charactercounts.org/program-overview/six-pillars/

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Bill Barr:

View attachment 26901

From:

Legal Issues in a New Political Order
William P. Barr

You never "quoted" Barr saying that he proposed using the government to enforce his religious ideas.

The reason why you don't quote him saying that is because he never said such a thing. You make these grand statements which are not true and then when asked to back up what you say with facts you give me a link where he never said such a thing. Just like most progressives you play it fast and loose with the truth.

It's the public school's place to pass on the values in our Constitution. Not just for LGBT, for them and everyone else.

So the parents of young children should be content to let public school teachers be the ones who tell their children about things concerning sex at an age when it is not appropriate for young children to be told these things?

You know, that "it takes a village" crap that is forced upon young children that can do nothing but belittle the authority which belongs to the parents.

So long as they are threatened by others like Barr, we need to show kids American values.

So parents should be content to let government officals, who are known for being corrupt, be the ones who teach their children values!

All you prove is that you are lacking in common sense if you think that those who run the government are the people who should be teaching our children "values."

 

[The Barbarian]

You never "quoted" Barr saying that he proposed using the government to enforce his religious ideas.

I showed you that he's complaining that not letting him impose his religious ideas on everyone else, is "attacking" his religious ideas.

You play fast and lose with the truth, as noted before.

So the parents of young children should be content to let public school teachers be the ones who tell their children about things concerning sex

So now it's not "about sex" but "about things concerning sex." Everyone understands what it's about, Jerry.

You know, that "it takes a village" crap that is forced upon young children that can do nothing but belittle the authority which belongs to the parents.

That won't play with me, either, Jerry. I grew up in a small town, where every adult was willing to correct a child who was misbehaving or to help one that needed help. And while they wouldn't lay a hand on the kid, he was in for a hard time, when the adult called his parents and told them that he ignored the correction or got smart-mouthed with an adult.

So parents should be content to let government officals, who are known for being corrupt, be the ones who teach their children values!

The values public schools teach...
TRUSTWORTHINESS
Be honest in communications and actions • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends, and country • Keep your promises

RESPECT
Treat others with respect and follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant and accepting of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults, and disagreements

RESPONSIBILITY
Do what you are supposed to do • Plan ahead • Be diligent • Persevere • Do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act • Be accountable for your words, actions and attitudes • Set a good example for others • Choose a positive attitude • Make healthy choices

FAIRNESS
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly • Treat all people fairly

CARING
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Show Empathy • Express gratitude • Forgive others and show mercy • Help people in need • Be charitable and altruistic

CITIZENSHIP
Do your share to make your home, school, community and greater world better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment • Volunteer

Which of those do you find objectionable, Jerry?

 

[Gary K]

TRUSTWORTHINESS
Be honest in communications and actions • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends, and country • Keep your promises

RESPECT
Treat others with respect and follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant and accepting of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults, and disagreements

RESPONSIBILITY
Do what you are supposed to do • Plan ahead • Be diligent • Persevere • Do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act • Be accountable for your words, actions and attitudes • Set a good example for others • Choose a positive attitude • Make healthy choices

FAIRNESS
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly • Treat all people fairly

CARING
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Show Empathy • Express gratitude • Forgive others and show mercy • Help people in need • Be charitable and altruistic

CITIZENSHIP
Do your share to make your home, school, community and greater world better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment • Volunteer

The values public education practices? Well, it's next to none of the above.

 

[annabenedetti]

You never "quoted" Barr saying that he proposed using the government to enforce his religious ideas.

The reason why you don't quote him saying that is because he never said such a thing. You make these grand statements which are not true and then when asked to back up what you say with facts you give me a link where he never said such a thing. Just like most progressives you play it fast and loose with the truth.

:freak: What are you going on about?

 

[Gary K]

I just love how leftists want to condemn Barr for following the law. He would like to enforce his Christian values, but instead he follows the law and doesn't do that. Oh, what an evil man. Can you believe it? He's following the law. Barr must be the devil himself for doing something that despicable.

Oh, that's right. Barbie just hates the values. He finds the values themselves despicable, irredeemable, and deplorable.

 

[annabenedetti]

Oh, that's right. Barbie just hates the values. He finds the values themselves despicable, irredeemable, and deplorable.

Why do you lie about Barbarian like this?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

:freak: What are you going on about?

It's simple!

I called out Barbarian when he wrote that Barr proposed using the government to enforce his religious ideas. I challenged him to quote Barr saying that and since Barr never said that Barbarian he was unable to quote him saying that.

What Barbarian did is the same thing we see all the time with the progressives, that they play it fast and loose with the truth.

Can you spell S-C-H-I-F-F

"Responding to attacks by White House counselor Kellyanne Conway, Rep. Adam Schiff on Sunday insisted his criticism of the Trump administration was not wrong, saying there was “ample evidence of collusion in plain sight.”​

If it was in plain sight then why didn't Mueller find it? Here is the headline from the liberal newspaper N.Y.Times:

Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy, but Stops Short of Exonerating President on Obstruction​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The values public education practices? Well, it's next to none of the above.

Yes, and they certainly don't practice the following:

"Treat all people fairly"​

How fair are they to the parents of young children who do not want them exposed, as such a young age, to the sex they teach in the public schools?

The government robs the parents of their rights to raise their children in the way they want them raised.

 

[annabenedetti]

It's simple!

I called out Barbarian when he wrote that Barr proposed using the government to enforce his religious ideas. I challenged him to quote Barr saying that and since Barr never said that Barbarian he was unable to quote him saying that.

You quoted me. I didn't owe you any "quotes" although if you'd read Barr's words you'd realize Barr laments that the government can't enforce religious law. Read Barr's words. Read the whole essay, I provided a link to it.

What Barbarian did is the same thing we see all the time with the progressives, that they play it fast and loose with the truth.

Actually, no he didn't.

 

[annabenedetti]

How fair are they to the parents of young children who do not want them exposed, as such a young age, to the sex they teach in the public schools?

The government robs the parents of their rights to raise their children in the way they want them raised.

The schools were fair to me. I opted my kids out of almost all of the sex ed offered, and never once got any grief for it.

 

[Derf]

It was perfectly legal until the Bill of Rights was ratified. And even then, it was legal by the states until Amendment XIV was ratified. Now no government agency can endorse or deny religion. The rest of it is fine, of course.

As Madison wrote, the fruits of established religion have been:
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, [ca. 20 June] 1785

Madison was entirely correct. Notice we see those same characteristics today, in religious groups that advocate establishment.

Entirely correct? How about when his very Remonstrance speaks boldly of the Creator, which he used to argue against that establishment of a particular religion. Thus Madison was in no way opposed to using the idea of God in making law--just not the idea of forcing people to conform to a particular religion.

As I pointed out, Americans quite properly banned the teaching of religion in public schools.

(hardly)

Morality generally is taught in terms of citizenship. The most effective and likely the most used:

The Six Pillars of Character® are the core ethical values of CHARACTER COUNTS! These values were identified by a nonpartisan, nonsectarian (secular) group of youth development experts in 1992 as “core ethical values that transcend cultural, religious and socioeconomic differences”.

Each of The Six Pillar of Character traits are used within our CHARACTER COUNTS! program to help instill a positive school climate and a culture of kindness, making schools a safe environment for students to learn.

TRUSTWORTHINESS
Be honest in communications and actions • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends, and country • Keep your promises

RESPECT
Treat others with respect and follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant and accepting of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults, and disagreements

RESPONSIBILITY
Do what you are supposed to do • Plan ahead • Be diligent • Persevere • Do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act • Be accountable for your words, actions and attitudes • Set a good example for others • Choose a positive attitude • Make healthy choices

FAIRNESS
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly • Treat all people fairly

CARING
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Show Empathy • Express gratitude • Forgive others and show mercy • Help people in need • Be charitable and altruistic

CITIZENSHIP
Do your share to make your home, school, community and greater world better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment • Volunteer

https://charactercounts.org/program-overview/six-pillars/

How effective? are you saying that we have more morality using such a list than we did when we used a list like this:

I am the Lord your God...

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

You shall not kill.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbor’s.​

The problem, which has been made evident since the 10 commandments have been erased from the peoples' memory, is that your list has no authority. It is merely a list of suggestions. They might be nice suggestions to you and me, but they will no doubt make some people uncomfortable, and therefore, using today's logic, they, too will have to be erased from public view. For in reality, they are just a recapitulation of the idea of "love your neighbor as yourself, without the understanding that "God made both you and your neighbor and you owe Him your allegiance."

But it's very interesting that you use that list, since it has to first establish authority, which it does in several ways, like "Do what you are supposed to do." and "Have the courage to do the right thing" and "Obey laws and rules • Respect authority". Who is this authority we are supposed to obey and respect? And when do we know when that authority is corrupt and needs to be challenged? If that authority is the President of the United States, and the values of said president change every 4 to 8 years, then your morality is of no lasting value, because it doesn't last.

Only an everlasting, wise and powerful God can both give us laws that stand the test of time (as even evidenced by your list) and can effectively punish those who stray from those rules.

 

[Gary K]

Why do you lie about Barbarian like this?

Barbie, just like you, despises Christian values for both of you support and advocate for the opposite of those values. You know, homosexuality, transgenderism, non-Biblical marriage, abortion, racism, etc.... I could just go on and on. And you support the most dishonest politicians to ever exist in the US. I find that a complete rejection of God's values.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The schools were fair to me. I opted my kids out of almost all of the sex ed offered, and never once got any grief for it.

What if you lived in Maryland and your minor daughter was allowed to get an abortion without your consent?:

Maryland law requires that one parent or guardian be notified before a minor has an abortion. The parent/guardian does not need to consent (agree) with the minor's choice, but does need to know the minor is planning to have an abortion.​

Would you say that the state of Maryland was treating you fairly?

 

[annabenedetti]

Barbie, just like you, despises Christian values for both of you support and advocate for the opposite of those values. You know, homosexuality, transgenderism, non-Biblical marriage, abortion, racism, etc.... I could just go on and on.

No he doesn't. You're willfully lying about him.

 

[annabenedetti]

What if you lived in Maryland and your minor daughter was allowed to get an abortion without your consent?:

Maryland law requires that one parent or guardian be notified before a minor has an abortion. The parent/guardian does not need to consent (agree) with the minor's choice, but does need to know the minor is planning to have an abortion.​

Would you say that the state of Maryland was treating you fairly?

You were talking about sex ed and my response was about sex ed. We can move on from that, now that it's clear parents have the ability to opt out of sex ed for their kids.

Moving to the next: noting ahead of time that we're not likely to agree on parenting or much anything else, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because I already know how it'll go. First: I'm pro-life. Always have been. Second, I didn't have to deal with this situation with any of my kids so I can't speak from that experience. Third, as much as I wouldn't want to have to deal with this situation, if I had a daughter who used her legal autonomy to get an abortion I would still be her mom, even as I grieved.

Question for you. Let's say you have a 14 year old daughter who insists on going forward with an abortion. What do you do? Hold her captive until she gives birth? Seriously, what do you do?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Question for you. Let's say you have a 14 year old daughter who insists on going forward with an abortion. What do you do? Hold her captive until she gives birth? Seriously, what do you do?

Since she is a minor I should have no problem in regard to stopping her from having an abortion. But the government in Maryland steps in and makes it possible for her to have an abortion without my consent.

Do you think that the action of the state of Maryland in this regard is morally right?

 

[annabenedetti]

Since she is a minor I should have no problem in regard to stopping her from having an abortion. But the government in Maryland steps in and makes it possible for her to have an abortion without my consent.

You'd have a problem if you lived in Maryland and she got the abortion without your consent.

Do you think that the action of the state of Maryland in this regard is morally right?

This is a tough hypothetical, I don't deny that. The state of Maryland is recognizing her legal autonomy to get a legal abortion, so the state sees itself as ensuring her legal rights. To you, and to me, we see abortion as the murder of an unborn person. To many people, particularly when done in the early weeks, they don't see it as murder, only as the termination of a pregnancy. I'm not saying I agree with that, I'm saying that's how a lot of people see it, and indeed, I believe there are a lot of panicky Christian parents who, when it became their daughter in such a situation, have completely revised their opinion of when life begins.

So let's say your daughter is 14, you live in Maryland, she's adamant that she's not ready to be a mother and that she's going ahead with the abortion despite your forbidding it.

Now what do you do?

 

[Lon]

...you may decide that your sins are nicer than theirs, but God isn't buying that story.

:think:

So how are your sins nicer than those of homosexuals,who are also struggling to do better?

Nicer? :nono:
:think: Venial vs Mortal Further from New Advent :think:

In Catholicism, all sexual sin is mortal :think: