Will Duffy YouTube Debate v CJ Borns Open Theism 11/23/19

[Derf]

i keep using it because it's true

And I keep arguing against it because it's not.

the future, as a thing, does not exist so can't be known according to the open theist.

Except what God decides to do, or to allow in what is happening. And yes, you're right--that the open theist doesn't know what God is going to do in the future--UNLESS God reveals it, which He does numerous times, sometimes even when it ISN'T the future (like Nineveh and Hezekiah examples).

God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
and open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish & they may or may not repent.

Yes, just like Nineveh! If they were unrepentant, the punishment would have happened. Only in that case God only told them about the current plan, not the contingency plan. In the Rev 16 case, God may be again telling us about the current plan, assuming no repentance. However, I think it's more likely that He knows the general mindset of man, and knows that it is usually just a remnant that repents and is saved. So how hard is it to say that there are some that will never repent??

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

I answered these with specific, current-day examples, which you never responded to. Should we repeat???

Did God need foreknowledge to know Hezekiah was going to die. no
Did God need foreknowledge to keep Hezekiah alive 15 more years . no

How can you say "no"? What is foreknowledge unless it is knowledge before the event happens?

your Hezekiah verses are about whether or not the future is settled

Yes. And God would never lie and say the opposite of what He knows, would He? So if the future is settled, and God "knew" Hezekiah would die of the illness, but he didn't die of the illness, then God either KNEW a falsehood (which I would say is impossible), or God KNEW the truth but told the opposite (which I would say is a lie). Neither of these possibilities are tenable for a good and perfect God. The only remaining choice is to question the premise that the future is settled. Thus, the future is NOT settled.

4.God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle

So you're saying God told Hezekiah something that wasn't true on purpose. God lied so that we would know He can do miracles?? Jesus never needed that. I guess I'm starting to see why Clete keeps calling you a liar, if you say God is a liar.

so which is it the open theist says God knows everything that is knowable or God doesn't know what is knowable,

How do we know if something is knowable? If God says, "I'm going to find out ____", isn't that the same as God saying 1) that ____ IS knowable, and 2) He doesn't already know _____? And when you say He is NOT going to find out _____, are you not calling God a liar??

The only other way to read this is to say the text is not telling us the truth. Calvinists do this, but to avoid impeaching God's character, they call it anthropomorphism.

How can a God who knows everything find out something? The only way is if that something comes into existence at a particular point in time. So in Sodom's case, the knowledge God was seeking was a fluid thing--something that was not available ("unknowable"), and then it became knowable. I postulated that the knowledge was something that God had to experience to find it out. And in terms of evil, future evil is not already in existence, else God could judge someone for future evil--but He never does--His future judgments are contingent on the playing out of the future evil. (This is different than God judging for current evil to prevent future evil, as it seems He often does--like the flood of Noah, or the judgment of Canaan by the Israelites.)

How does God know how many hairs are on our heads? [Mat 10:30 CSB] "But even the hairs of your head have all been counted. He counts?? Why would God need to count our hairs, if He knows already? If you think it's merely anthropomorphic language, do you really think Jesus didn't know how to say, God knew (or even "foreknew") how many hairs you would have?

and either way doesn't know the future but guesses .
the open theist God is created in mans image

If you call God a liar, and God says He doesn't lie, who is making God in a different image??

Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,


there were not 10 righteous in sodom ,you know how I know ,sodom was destroyed

Yes...and? How does that apply to the events as they happened? It's all very well to look back with 20/20 hindsight and make some great proclamation about the event. But Abraham was hoping, and God didn't tell him whether He knew, there were less than 10 at the time. It doesn't say one way or the other. And Gen 18:20 can be understood as "the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and the outcry is that their sin is very grave."

The story has the angels going down there planning to stay the night in the square. Knowing now what happened, it seems like that would be a bad idea for them, except we are assured they can handled themselves in an unruly crowd. Lot doesn't know that, but convinces them to stay in his house, because he knows how bad the city is. They are so bad that they won't repent when Lot appeals to them: [Gen 19:7 NKJV] and said, "Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!
The angels see two possible things there: 1) that all the people of Sodom were wicked, 2) except Lot and his family. At this point, and not before, they explain to Lot that they are going to destroy the city. I think this is where the decision to actually destroy was made, and it came after they had tested the people of the city and found them to be wicked--without repentance.
[Gen 19:13 NKJV] "For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
My reading is by no means the only possible one, but it allows the statements to be taken literally, instead of taken as opposite of what it really says.

since Abraham never actually sacrificed his son we only know from what Abraham believed

As I said, your statement adds nothing to the conversation. If you want to elaborate, we can talk more about it, but until then, your point isn't discussable. Hebrews doesn't say when Abraham believed God could/would raise Isaac from the dead. His statement to Isaac on the way up the mountains suggests Abraham wasn't yet thinking that he would really have to kill Isaac.

So if Abraham didn't yet know, how did God know Abraham would be faithful, unless the future is settled. But to use it as an argument for a settled future is circular--and in conflict with the text itself, as Calvin admitted.

 

[Clete]

How can you say "no"? What is foreknowledge unless it is knowledge before the event happens?
Yes. And God would never lie and say the opposite of what He knows, would He? So if the future is settled, and God "knew" Hezekiah would die of the illness, but he didn't die of the illness, then God either KNEW a falsehood (which I would say is impossible), or God KNEW the truth but told the opposite (which I would say is a lie). Neither of these possibilities are tenable for a good and perfect God. The only remaining choice is to question the premise that the future is settled. Thus, the future is NOT settled.

Your whole post was excellent, of course, but the above quoted bit was a particularly brilliant summation of the argument. :up:

What I don't understand, (I really truly do not understand it) is why people are so afraid of such a simple idea? It's especially confounding that Christians, who claim that they build their doctrine on the bible, would so stubbornly cling to their doctrine over the simplest reading of so many passages of scripture. I mean, way2go doesn't actually believe that we think God is merely guessing! He flat out does not believe that. It's just a tactic. It's a rhetorical tactic that he uses as a pejorative. But why? If his doctrine is so right and ours so obviously false, then where is the need for such substantively vacuous tactics. Why not just make the biblical case against our position? His handling of the Hezekiah story is similarly dismaying. Why does he feel the need to twist himself in such knots to force a perfectly clear story into something so convoluted that it ends up meaning the effective opposite of what it says.

Why do we never come across a Christian who, when shown totally clear biblical evidence that obviously contradicts some doctrine they've been taught, says anything similar too, "Oh, well I hadn't ever considered that. Maybe this doctrine was taught to me in error. Tell me more, please!"? Why, instead of finding a default allegiance to the plain reading of scripture do we find a totally blind, even hysterical clinging to their doctrines?

Not only that but doesn't their own life experience tell them that the future is not settled? The Calvinist goes through every day of his life making one choice after another, hundreds, perhaps thousands of times a day, every single day and yet even the ones that give lip service to our having the ability to choose believe that it's something quite different than what their experience tells them it is and other Calvinists steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the existence of choice at all! It's complete insanity. The Arminian is in no better shape in this regard than the Calvinist, perhaps worse, because at least the Calvinist is logically consistent with his own premises whereas the Arminian is logically all over the place, practically cherry picking which Greek doctrines he wishes to hang on to and which he prefers to discard.

As for me, I have always been one who questions everything. I'm not nearly as interested in what I should believe as I am in why I should believe it. That goes for more than just theology, too! I inspect homes for a living and when I was learning the job, I'd go to these classes that would give you handouts of various code requirements that you are supposed to look for and write up if you find something that violates this list of rules. Some of them make intuitive sense but some just don't. The power cord on a garbage disposal isn't allowed to be longer than 18 inches, for example. Why? I've been told a couple of different answers but they don't make any sense and so I don't even bother looking most of the time and I doubt that I'd write it up if I did happen to notice one that was a whole whopping 3 feet! I mean who cares, right? There's no reason for it - not that makes any sort of common sense anyway. And that's just the way I have always been about everything. Whether it's work or hobby, faith or science, I just do not believe something BECAUSE someone says it. If the "why" or "how so" isn't there, it's held as suspect in my mind until a proper supporting argument has been made and even then I'm prepared to drop it like a hot rock if a better argument comes along to refute it. I spent the first two decades of my Christian life wading through a maze of doctrines that eventually lead me to not only Open Theism but Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and even now, my attitude about right doctrine hasn't changed. If someone could present to me a compelling argument that falsified any single doctrine or even my entire theological construct, I'd happily drop it in favor of the truth! I wouldn't hesitate for one minute! I want to know THE TRUTH! I'm not a dispensational open theists because I think it's cool. In fact, quite the contrary, I'm so theologically isolated it's pathetic. I could almost wish it weren't true and that the nearest Baptist church to my house is where I could go to find all the doctrinal truth there is to know! As it is, no one has yet presented an argument against my beliefs that is even half as good as those which support it, not the least of which is the completely plain reading of virtually every passage of scripture!

Anyway, I blathered on there for longer than I intended!

God bless!
Clete

 

[Derf]

Your whole post was excellent, of course, but the above quoted bit was a particularly brilliant summation of the argument. :up:

Thanks Clete. Appreciate the kind words.

What I don't understand, (I really truly do not understand it) is why people are so afraid of such a simple idea? It's especially confounding that Christians, who claim that they build their doctrine on the bible, would so stubbornly cling to their doctrine over the simplest reading of so many passages of scripture. I mean, way2go doesn't actually believe that we think God is merely guessing! He flat out does not believe that. It's just a tactic. It's a rhetorical tactic that he uses as a pejorative. But why? If his doctrine is so right and ours so obviously false, then where is the need for such substantively vacuous tactics. Why not just make the biblical case against our position? His handling of the Hezekiah story is similarly dismaying. Why does he feel the need to twist himself in such knots to force a perfectly clear story into something so convoluted that it ends up meaning the effective opposite of what it says.

I'm not quite so willing as you to say what way 2 go believes in opposition to what he says he believes about open theists, but you have no doubt had more conversations with him. I prefer to think that he doesn't see the difference between what open theists say and his "guessing" denigration of them/us, however misguided it might be.

Why do we never come across a Christian who, when shown totally clear biblical evidence that obviously contradicts some doctrine they've been taught, says anything similar too, "Oh, well I hadn't ever considered that. Maybe this doctrine was taught to me in error. Tell me more, please!"? Why, instead of finding a default allegiance to the plain reading of scripture do we find a totally blind, even hysterical clinging to their doctrines?

I think the problem is that we tend to think of our set of doctrines as a whole, systematic package. And if one particular doctrine is shown to be wrong, what does that mean for the rest, including our assurance of salvation?

Of course that raises the question about what we are counting on to save us? Is it the blood of Jesus Christ? Or is it the good feeling we get when we consider our position in Christ, as achieved through our following of our doctrine? I think Will made this point with CJ, or maybe with Matt Slick, that many of us are relying on God's inability to change to keep us safe (because we think we are in a safe condition already), rather than relying on God's power and His promises to us to save us. This is a seriously important point, imo, and one that many, many Calvinists who are writing and speaking against open theism seem to miss. If we don't think God is powerful enough to keep His word, or trustworthy enough to keep His word, unless He can somehow see into the future to determine if He's right, what does that say about who/what God is to us? God then becomes merely an excuse to hang onto a wrong doctrine.

Not only that but doesn't their own life experience tell them that the future is not settled? The Calvinist goes through every day of his life making one choice after another, hundreds, perhaps thousands of times a day, every single day and yet even the ones that give lip service to our having the ability to choose believe that it's something quite different than what their experience tells them it is and other Calvinists steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the existence of choice at all! It's complete insanity. The Arminian is in no better shape in this regard than the Calvinist, perhaps worse, because at least the Calvinist is logically consistent with his own premises whereas the Arminian is logically all over the place, practically cherry picking which Greek doctrines he wishes to hang on to and which he prefers to discard.

And the Calvinists I know and love are some very good people--they really try to choose well, I think, and often make the right choices.

However, I'm not sure Calvinists trying to choose well are consistent with their premises that God doesn't really give them a choice. Where I agree with your statement is that if the future is settled, the Calvinists' view of scripture is the only possible one.

As for me, I have always been one who questions everything. I'm not nearly as interested in what I should believe as I am in why I should believe it. That goes for more than just theology, too! I inspect homes for a living and when I was learning the job, I'd go to these classes that would give you handouts of various code requirements that you are supposed to look for and write up if you find something that violates this list of rules. Some of them make intuitive sense but some just don't. The power cord on a garbage disposal isn't allowed to be longer than 18 inches, for example. Why? I've been told a couple of different answers but they don't make any sense and so I don't even bother looking most of the time and I doubt that I'd write it up if I did happen to notice one that was a whole whopping 3 feet! I mean who cares, right? There's no reason for it - not that makes any sort of common sense anyway. And that's just the way I have always been about everything. Whether it's work or hobby, faith or science, I just do not believe something BECAUSE someone says it. If the "why" or "how so" isn't there, it's held as suspect in my mind until a proper supporting argument has been made and even then I'm prepared to drop it like a hot rock if a better argument comes along to refute it. I spent the first two decades of my Christian life wading through a maze of doctrines that eventually lead me to not only Open Theism but Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and even now, my attitude about right doctrine hasn't changed. If someone could present to me a compelling argument that falsified any single doctrine or even my entire theological construct, I'd happily drop it in favor of the truth! I wouldn't hesitate for one minute! I want to know THE TRUTH! I'm not a dispensational open theists because I think it's cool. In fact, quite the contrary, I'm so theologically isolated it's pathetic. I could almost wish it weren't true and that the nearest Baptist church to my house is where I could go to find all the doctrinal truth there is to know! As it is, no one has yet presented an argument against my beliefs that is even half as good as those which support it, not the least of which is the completely plain reading of virtually every passage of scripture!

Anyway, I blathered on there for longer than I intended!

God bless!
Clete

I just recently got my cert of occupancy, so I appreciate the reference to codes and their purposes. And I have come to appreciate many of the codes I didn't understand before. I can give you a potential reason for the max 3 ft cord, I think. The cord needs to be long enough to reach the outlet (or the hard-connect) without allowing the cord too much slack that it sits on the floor of the sink where caustic chemicals are kept, and which might degrade the integrity of the insulation, or such that it is subject to abuse from the items under the sink in some other way (friction from moving the trash can in and out, for instance).

 

[Tambora]

I can assure you that there is not one single instance of any Open Theist that believes God guesses. Not even the term "educated guess" would be an accurate way to describe what God does when He makes predictive prophecies, although that phrase, if used properly, is far more tollerable than the stupid lie that way 2 go is spreading here.

Having said that, Jesus did not know, in the absolute sense of the word, that Peter would deny Him three times. Jesus knew Peter extremely well and the entire sequence of events was clearly orchestrated by God and so there was a very very high degree of certainty that Peter would do as Christ predicted because it was all about God teaching Peter something about himself and not about Jesus' ability to predict the future. Nevertheless, it was possible for Peter to repent and had he done so, it would not have broken God nor would it have made Jesus a false prophet. On the contrary, Jesus would have been elated at Peter's repentance and rejoiced that His prophecy had the desired effect.

In fact, if Peter could not have repented, then the whole story loses it's meaning. After all, it isn't difficult to know what a puppet will do when you're the one pulling the strings. So the resident liar in this thread, way 2 go, has a choice to make. Does he believe that Peter had a choice and thus could have done otherwise as Open Theism teaches or does he believe that Peter's actions were not chosen but were instead predestined and that he could not have done otherwise as the Calvinist teaches?

He, of course, will not take a stand here. He's not half as honest as it would require for that to happen. He'll likely ignore the point entirely and find some sort of way to repeat the lie he came here to propagate.

Clete

Not only that, Clete, but Matthew 10:23 should settle the matter.

But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.​

Peter denied Christ.
If those words were set in stone for all time and all situations then Peter didn't have a chance.

 

[Clete]

Thanks Clete. Appreciate the kind words.
I'm not quite so willing as you to say what way 2 go believes in opposition to what he says he believes about open theists, but you have no doubt had more conversations with him. I prefer to think that he doesn't see the difference between what open theists say and his "guessing" denigration of them/us, however misguided it might be.

I'm convinced it's just a pejorative. He puts it in those terms to intentionally mischaracterize it for emotional effect. He wouldn't use that terminology in any other context. I bet he doesn't go around insisting that meteorologists are merely guessing. And what God is doing is far more than what any meteorologist could hope to do.

I think the problem is that we tend to think of our set of doctrines as a whole, systematic package. And if one particular doctrine is shown to be wrong, what does that mean for the rest, including our assurance of salvation?

Of course that raises the question about what we are counting on to save us? Is it the blood of Jesus Christ? Or is it the good feeling we get when we consider our position in Christ, as achieved through our following of our doctrine? I think Will made this point with CJ, or maybe with Matt Slick, that many of us are relying on God's inability to change to keep us safe (because we think we are in a safe condition already), rather than relying on God's power and His promises to us to save us. This is a seriously important point, imo, and one that many, many Calvinists who are writing and speaking against open theism seem to miss. If we don't think God is powerful enough to keep His word, or trustworthy enough to keep His word, unless He can somehow see into the future to determine if He's right, what does that say about who/what God is to us? God then becomes merely an excuse to hang onto a wrong doctrine.

I agree with you here. There's a whole list of emotionally based reasons why people cling to the religious beliefs in spite of clear reason. When I did family counseling we called in "entrenchment". People cling to the familiar because they're emotionally invested in it. Pastors are probably the most entrenched people when it comes to doctrine because, in addition to likely haven grown up in the doctrinal system that they're now a pastor of, they've spent years of their lives and thousands and thousands of dollars learning their doctrine and then more years and more money teaching that doctrine to others. For them to ever even consider that they been wrong that whole time is way more than the typical human being has the emotional fortitude to pull off.

Not that it counts as an excuse.

And the Calvinists I know and love are some very good people--they really try to choose well, I think, and often make the right choices.

However, I'm not sure Calvinists trying to choose well are consistent with their premises that God doesn't really give them a choice. Where I agree with your statement is that if the future is settled, the Calvinists' view of scripture is the only possible one.

I agree! Most all of the Calvinists I've met personally are terrific to be around. They love God, raise their kids well and are helpful to their neighbors, etc. I've rarely met a person who calls himself a Calvinist who is an actual theologian though. Most of them don't really think it through in any sort of rigorously logical way and, in fact, I'd say most of them believe that it isn't something that needs to make logical sense anyway. They just believe what they are taught to believe and trust that they being taught rightly. That's the part I was never able to do. I've always had to confirm things.

I just recently got my cert of occupancy, so I appreciate the reference to codes and their purposes. And I have come to appreciate many of the codes I didn't understand before. I can give you a potential reason for the max 3 ft cord, I think. The cord needs to be long enough to reach the outlet (or the hard-connect) without allowing the cord too much slack that it sits on the floor of the sink where caustic chemicals are kept, and which might degrade the integrity of the insulation, or such that it is subject to abuse from the items under the sink in some other way (friction from moving the trash can in and out, for instance).

LOL! You know I had my head under a kitchen cabinet yesterday and realized that I had misquoted the code on that cord length. I said 18" and it's actual 36". Leave it to me to say something as obscure as that to someone who would know enough to catch the error! :doh:

And you're right, that's pretty much the gist of the reasoning I've heard for the code and there's always some sort of justification for any particular code but there's a point at which the codes get a little silly. I've inspected something like 3000 homes and never one time have I ever seen a power cord that was compromised by some caustic substance under the kitchen sink and there's lots of times when 36" of cord is plenty enough to have some of it sitting on the bottom of the cabinet anyway. Seems like the code should require the cord to be up off the bottom of the cabinet if they're worried about it sitting in something that's going to eat the sheathing off the cord.

Isolation links in a light fixture's metal pull chain is another one that I just roll my eyes at. That, and the fact that duct tape is not approved for use on A/C ducts!

 

[Clete]

Not only that, Clete, but Matthew 10:23 should settle the matter.

But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.​

Peter denied Christ.
If those words were set in stone for all time and all situations then Peter didn't have a chance.

That's a great point!
Why wouldn't Matthew 10:23 count as a predictive prophesy?
So, by w2g's reasoning, if Peter isn't in Hell right now it means that Jesus must have just been guessing about who He would deny before the Father or else He was false prophet in which case Peter would still be in Hell anyway, right?

 

[Tambora]

That's a great point!
Why wouldn't Matthew 10:23 count as a predictive prophesy?
So, by w2g's reasoning, if Peter isn't in Hell right now it means that Jesus must have just been guessing about who He would deny before the Father or else He was false prophet in which case Peter would still be in Hell anyway, right?

That would be the conclusion for that type of reasoning.

One could also declare Jonah a false prophet for telling Nineveh that they would be destroyed in 40 days with that type of reasoning.
Because it leaves out all the scriptures where GOD says if one repents from their evil HE will repent of the evil HE thought to do to them.
The 40 days came and went and Nineveh was not destroyed.
And yet Jonah was a prophet of GOD, not a false prophet.

 

[Clete]

That would be the conclusion for that type of reasoning.

One could also declare Jonah a false prophet for telling Nineveh that they would be destroyed in 40 days with that type of reasoning.
Because it leaves out all the scriptures where GOD says if one repents from their evil HE will repent of the evil HE thought to do to them.
The 40 days came and went and Nineveh was not destroyed.
And yet Jonah was a prophet of GOD, not a false prophet.

You're too kind here really. It's not just that they "leave out all the scriptures...", right? That is to say that, "all the scriptures" is an accurate way to say it but that phrase happens to include an entire book of the Old Testament. I mean, it's one thing to gloss over passages that are scattered here and there but they ignore one whole entire book of the bible! The book of Jonah is literally and specifically about a prophecy that not only didn't come to pass but about how the prophet who gave the prophecy not only expected it to not to come to pass but was angry about it! Indeed, it is Jonah's attitude that is the main point of the book! Nineveh and their wickedness, God's threat to destroy them and their subsequent repentance is all just the back drop to the real point of the book which was Jonah and his poor attitude about God's repentence and mercy.

 

[way 2 go]

Except what God decides to do, or to allow in what is happening. And yes, you're right--that the open theist doesn't know what God is going to do in the future--UNLESS God reveals it, which He does numerous times, sometimes even when it ISN'T the future (like Nineveh and Hezekiah examples).

I said the open theist god does not know the future

Yes, just like Nineveh! If they were unrepentant, the punishment would have happened. Only in that case God only told them about the current plan, not the contingency plan.

If Nineveh wasn't told of the coming punishment then they would not have repented which Jonah knew they would but the open theist god did not know

In the Rev 16 case, God may be again telling us about the current plan, assuming no repentance. However, I think it's more likely that He knows the general mindset of man, and knows that it is usually just a remnant that repents and is saved. So how hard is it to say that there are some that will never repent??

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.

I answered these with specific, current-day examples, which you never responded to. Should we repeat???

did it prove the open theist God doesn't guess ?

How can you say "no"? What is foreknowledge unless it is knowledge before the event happens?
Yes. And God would never lie and say the opposite of what He knows, would He? So if the future is settled, and God "knew" Hezekiah would die of the illness, but he didn't die of the illness, then God either KNEW a falsehood (which I would say is impossible), or God KNEW the truth but told the opposite (which I would say is a lie). Neither of these possibilities are tenable for a good and perfect God. The only remaining choice is to question the premise that the future is settled. Thus, the future is NOT settled.

So you're saying God told Hezekiah something that wasn't true on purpose. God lied so that we would know He can do miracles?? Jesus never needed that. I guess I'm starting to see why Clete keeps calling you a liar, if you say God is a liar.

Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .
you want the cart before the horse

How do we know if something is knowable? If God says, "I'm going to find out ____", isn't that the same as God saying 1) that ____ IS knowable, and 2) He doesn't already know _____? And when you say He is NOT going to find out _____, are you not calling God a liar??

this verse only trips up open theist , God already knew , Abraham on the other hand didn't hence the conversation that followed

Gen 18:21 I will go down and see if they have at all done according to the cry coming to Me. And if not, I will know.
...
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near and said, Is it so? Will You cut off the righteous with the wicked?
Gen 18:24 Perhaps there are fifty righteous within the city; is it so You will cut off and will not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones that are within it?

The only other way to read this is to say the text is not telling us the truth. Calvinists do this, but to avoid impeaching God's character, they call it anthropomorphism.

open theist say God knows all that is knowable but not the future but they don't even believe God knows what is knowable

How can a God who knows everything find out something?

why would God who knows all need to find out anything ?

The only way is if that something comes into existence at a particular point in time. So in Sodom's case, the knowledge God was seeking was a fluid thing--something that was not available ("unknowable"), and then it became knowable. I postulated that the knowledge was something that God had to experience to find it out. And in terms of evil, future evil is not already in existence, else God could judge someone for future evil--but He never does--His future judgments are contingent on the playing out of the future evil. (This is different than God judging for current evil to prevent future evil, as it seems He often does--like the flood of Noah, or the judgment of Canaan by the Israelites.)

open theist like to say God knows our thoughts but you don't even believe that.

How does God know how many hairs are on our heads? [Mat 10:30 CSB] "But even the hairs of your head have all been counted. He counts?? Why would God need to count our hairs, if He knows already? If you think it's merely anthropomorphic language, do you really think Jesus didn't know how to say, God knew (or even "foreknew") how many hairs you would have?

bible does not say how God knows things

who is making God in a different image??

open theist make God in mans image

 

[JudgeRightly]

I said the open theist god does not know the future

Correct. Because the future does not exist.

However, do you think that because of that, God cannot bring about the future He desires?

If Nineveh wasn't told of the coming punishment then they would not have repented

Correct.

which Jonah knew they would

Could you provide the scripture that says that Jonah knew prior to his going to Nineveh that Nineveh would repent?

but the open theist god did not know

Didn't know what?

Whether Nineveh would repent or not?

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance

I'm not even sure what you're saying because your grammar is terrible.

Could you rephrase please?

did it prove the open theist God doesn't guess ?

Straw man.

In NO WAY is God's prophecy "guessing."

Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .
you want the cart before the horse

Where was the condition given by God to Hezekiah that if he repented, God would allow him to live? Was there one?

open theist say God knows all

False.

We say that God CAN know anything that is knowable.

We don't think God is a bureaucrat, keeping track of everything everywhere at all times, but that He can choose to retain information or forget it.

that is knowable

Do you think it is logical to know something that cannot be known? For example, Can God know then number of hairs on the boogeyman's head?

but not the future but they don't even believe God knows what is knowable

Again, is something that cannot be known, knowable (self-contradictory)?

why would God who knows all need to find out anything?

Maybe you should spend some more time researching what it is open theists actually believe, because you don't seem to know.

open theist like to say God knows our thoughts but you don't even believe that.

This accusation is simply false, and runs counter to your argument against God being able to prophecy what men will do.

open theist make God in mans image

No, we don't. You should stop making this straw man.

 

[Derf]

I said the open theist god does not know the future

I'm not sure of your point here. Open theists say the same thing. The caveat is that open theists say God makes plans and fulfills His plans. In that sense (and in the sense of knowing how far earth will have traveled around the sun by this time tomorrow, if He doesn't intervene) God knows "the future". But "the future" is not something one can review like a movie. It's something that isn't, but will be. If it isn't, then God has no requirement to know what "it" is to maintain His omniscience.

I'm not quite as ready as JudgeRightly to say there are things God chooses not to know, but I understand why he says that--
[Jer 31:34 KJV] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
[Heb 8:12 KJV] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

I would suggest that it's a figure of speech to say God doesn't remember something that happened in the past. But it's a minor difference.

If Nineveh wasn't told of the coming punishment then they would not have repented which Jonah knew they would but the open theist god did not know

Agree. There are two possible future events, one where the Ninevites are destroyed and one where they continue to live. God told one outcome to the Ninevites, but the other one is what happened. If the destruction of Nineveh was never known by God to be what would happen, then He lied to them through Jonah. (Or the writer of the book of Jonah lied to us in telling us the story). If God thought the destruction of Nineveh was the future event, then He did not lie to Jonah or the Nineveh, but He proved He isn't omniscient about the future.

Neither of these logical results is something settled or open theists believe, but only open theism allows for the story of Jonah as written without demeaning God (or God's Word). If you have another way to look at it, please spell it out in whole sentences, as I would like to consider it.

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.

Tell me the names of the "men" and "they". If you can't, then the prophecy is a general one, and possibly a contingent one (though I doubt the latter). General prophecies are not so easy to pin down as to who they are talking about, so it can apply in different ways when the time comes. "They" might mean everyone on earth, or everyone in Israel, or everyone outside of Israel, or it might mean a select few (the leaders of a rebellion, perhaps).

did it prove the open theist God doesn't guess ?

You were the one that made the assertion, so you need to prove that He does, in the open theism model. My point was that there is no need to appeal to God guessing in open theism. However, in settled theism there is a need to show how God could be wrong about a prophecy. Do you have an answer? We'll consider your comments here:

Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .

You are making my point. Your view says that 1. God had to lie to Hezekiah to get Hezekiah to behave in a certain way. OR that 2. God didn't really know what was going to happen to Hezekiah. Which one do you choose?

you want the cart before the horse

You want the cart pulled by a horse already beaten to death.

this verse only trips up open theist , God already knew , Abraham on the other hand didn't hence the conversation that followed

Gen 18:21 I will go down and see if they have at all done according to the cry coming to Me. And if not, I will know.
...
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near and said, Is it so? Will You cut off the righteous with the wicked?
Gen 18:24 Perhaps there are fifty righteous within the city; is it so You will cut off and will not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones that are within it?

You can make that assertion, but it's baseless. Where in those verses does it say God knew how many righteous there were?

open theist say God knows all that is knowable but not the future but they don't even believe God knows what is knowable

why would God who knows all need to find out anything ?

This is the right question to ask. And the only answer I've seen that doesn't demean God is that God doesn't know what isn't true, and God is looking for people to repent before they are destroyed. The story of the Ninevites says that. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah says that.

If God gives a prophecy of destruction He's not telling the future, He's telling what the future will be if they don't repent. If the people repent, God is merciful--
[Jon 3:10 KJV] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.

open theist like to say God knows our thoughts but you don't even believe that.

Thoughts aren't the same as actions. Just because you think about doing something, doesn't mean you are going to do that thing. God condemns both the coveting (10th commandment) as well as the actions (murder, stealing, adultery,...) that result from that coveting. If the thoughts and actions are exactly the same, why bother with the tenth commandment? Surely God was drawing a line in the sand that helps us to avoid the hurt we might exact on others, even if we've already hurt ourselves by the coveting.

bible does not say how God knows things

Then why do you claim that God knows the future because the future is settled? If it's not in the bible, then it must be that you have conceived of God a certain way in your own mind.

Thus when you say:

open theist make God in mans image

You are at least equally guilty.

 

[way 2 go]

Correct. Because the future does not exist.

However, do you think that because of that, God cannot bring about the future He desires?

the open theist God is guessing so there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes

Could you provide the scripture that says that Jonah knew prior to his going to Nineveh that Nineveh would repent?

Jonah 4:2

In NO WAY is God's prophecy "guessing."

the open theist God is guessing as he does not know the future.

Where was the condition given by God to Hezekiah that if he repented, God would allow him to live? Was there one?

Hezekiah didn't repent
2Ki 20:3 I pray, O Jehovah, remember now how I have walked before You in truth and with a sincere heart, and have done good in Your sight. And Hezekiah wept with a great weeping.

& the condition was on God
2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, What shall be the sign that Jehovah will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of Jehovah the third day?
...
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten steps. No, but let the shadow go backward ten steps.

We say that God CAN know anything that is knowable.

the open theist says God can know & the bible says God knows

1Jn_3:20 that if our heart accuses us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

We don't think God is a bureaucrat, keeping track of everything everywhere at all times, but that He can choose to retain information or forget it.

Mat 12:36 But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

Do you think it is logical to know something that cannot be known? For example, Can God know then number of hairs on the boogeyman's head?

Again, is something that cannot be known, knowable (self-contradictory)?

God knows they will not repent ,
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

the open theist says God is guessing & can't know if "they will not repent"

 

[JudgeRightly]

the open theist God is guessing

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

so there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes

Which is why I asked you this:

Do you think that God is incapable of bringing about the end result He desires?

You must not, because you would rather have God locked into Fate where He cannot do anything other than what has already been predetermined that He would do.

Jonah 4:2

I see why you would think that this verse would support your position, and I agree that it seems to, on it's face, say that Jonah knew that they would repent.

But I think you're taking it too woodenly literally, where the context doesn't require it.

Nineveh just showed Jonah up, big time, and Jonah's attitude was sour because of it. I think Jonah was just saying that He knew it was a possibility, not that he "knew" it in the absolute sense, that he had some sort of premonition that it would occur that they would repent. In other words, I think he was just angry (and the entire passage supports that) that Nineveh repented, and that it's something he said to try to justify himself, even though he was clearly in the wrong. Jonah's attitude seems to be the key focus of the story, and as far as I can tell, he never repented of his anger, as the book ends with God reprimanding him for his anger.

So, while I agree that that is an excellent verse to use, I would have to say that, unfortunately, it supports my position better than it does yours, simply because of the context.

Unfortunately, the Bible does not record his utterance of that claim to knowledge at the beginning of the book, so at this point, there's even the possibility (aside from what I said above) that Jonah was lying, and simply didn't want to admit he was wrong.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We won't know that for sure until we get to heaven.

the open theist God is guessing

:yawn:

Try making a different argument, because that straw man won't work.

as he does not know the future.

God is capable of bringing about the future He desires. That's what Open Theism says.

Hezekiah didn't repent

You're right, "repent" is the wrong word to use.

My point, however, is that Hezekiah begged God to change the outcome, and God was influenced by Hezekiah's pleading (which shows God is not "impassable") and spared Hezekiah's life.

What part of the following...

2Ki 20:3 I pray, O Jehovah, remember now how I have walked before You in truth and with a sincere heart, and have done good in Your sight. And Hezekiah wept with a great weeping.

& the condition was on God
2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, What shall be the sign that Jehovah will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of Jehovah the third day?
...
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten steps. No, but let the shadow go backward ten steps.

... shows God following through with the original plan?

Or does it, in fact, show God deciding to change the outcome and allow Hezekiah to live, when God had stated quite clearly that he would die?

In other words, it boils down to whether you are calling God a liar.

If you are not, then the only logical answer is that God knew beforehand that Hezekiah would die, but then Hezekiah, upon hearing that, asked God to spare him, and so God, who is a merciful God, decided to heal Hezekiah, so that he would not die for another 15 years.

The ONLY OTHER OPTION is to say God intentionally lied to get Hezekiah to plead with Him to spare him. Which contradicts the fact that God does not lie.

the open theist says God can know & the bible says God knows

It also says God doesn't know certain things, and that He also learns things.

Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?

1Jn_3:20 that if our heart accuses us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

So, does that mean that men also know all things? Go back exactly one chapter, 1 John 2:20.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. - 1 John 2:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John2:20&version=NKJV

Mat 12:36 But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

What I said earlier, that God can choose what he knows and remembers, and can choose to forget things or retain them, fits that passage to a 'T.'

God knows they will not repent ,

AGREED! But He doesn't know WHO will not repent.

Just like He knew that Hezekiah would die soon, and told Him, in no uncertain terms, that he would die, along with a command to get his house in order.

But you seem to be forgetting something, and I just realized this after thinking about the portion of your post I'm currently replying to.

You seem to think in your mind that the decision by God to heal Hezekiah was made when He moved the shadow backwards. It wasn't.

The decision was made just after Hezekiah begged God to heal him. Isaiah didn't even have a chance to leave before God changed His mind.

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ”Then Isaiah said, “Take a lump of figs.” So they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What is the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the Lord the third day?”Then Isaiah said, “This is the sign to you from the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing which He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees or go backward ten degrees?”And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; no, but let the shadow go backward ten degrees.”So Isaiah the prophet cried out to the Lord, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz. - 2 Kings 20:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Kings20:1-11&version=NKJV1

Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

I think that, more likely than not, there will be some who do not repent. However, who those people are is not set in stone. Nor is that evidence that God knows the future (let alone exhaustively).

It simply means that such unrepentance will occur because of and in spite of God's actions. And that further supports my position, that God is capable of bringing about the future He desires, in spite of and even using those who hate Him.

The problem with your position is that it takes what the Bible says further than it should.

God doesn't know which people will not repent.

He knows, just like with Hezekiah before God chose to heal him, that some people will not repent. And because God the Father hasn't decided when the Son shall return yet, He simply cannot know specifics. But that DOES NOT MEAN that God cannot bring about that which He said would happen.

the open theist says God is guessing

Repeating your claim isn't going to make it come true.

and can't know if "they will not repent"

You were just shown exactly how God can know that some will not repent, yet not know the future.

At the risk of diluting my point, I have a question:

Did God know prior to His removal of him, that Saul would be included in the bloodline of Christ?

 

[Derf]

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.



Which is why I asked you this:

Do you think that God is incapable of bringing about the end result He desires?

You must not, because you would rather have God locked into Fate where He cannot do anything other than what has already been predetermined that He would do.



I see why you would think that this verse would support your position, and I agree that it seems to, on it's face, say that Jonah knew that they would repent.

But I think you're taking it too woodenly literally, where the context doesn't require it.

Nineveh just showed Jonah up, big time, and Jonah's attitude was sour because of it. I think Jonah was just saying that He knew it was a possibility, not that he "knew" it in the absolute sense, that he had some sort of premonition that it would occur that they would repent. In other words, I think he was just angry (and the entire passage supports that) that Nineveh repented, and that it's something he said to try to justify himself, even though he was clearly in the wrong. Jonah's attitude seems to be the key focus of the story, and as far as I can tell, he never repented of his anger, as the book ends with God reprimanding him for his anger.

So, while I agree that that is an excellent verse to use, I would have to say that, unfortunately, it supports my position better than it does yours, simply because of the context.

Unfortunately, the Bible does not record his utterance of that claim to knowledge at the beginning of the book, so at this point, there's even the possibility (aside from what I said above) that Jonah was lying, and simply didn't want to admit he was wrong.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We won't know that for sure until we get to heaven.



:yawn:

Try making a different argument, because that straw man won't work.



God is capable of bringing about the future He desires. That's what Open Theism says.



You're right, "repent" is the wrong word to use.

My point, however, is that Hezekiah begged God to change the outcome, and God was influenced by Hezekiah's pleading (which shows God is not "impassable") and spared Hezekiah's life.

What part of the following...



... shows God following through with the original plan?

Or does it, in fact, show God deciding to change the outcome and allow Hezekiah to live, when God had stated quite clearly that he would die?

In other words, it boils down to whether you are calling God a liar.

If you are not, then the only logical answer is that God knew beforehand that Hezekiah would die, but then Hezekiah, upon hearing that, asked God to spare him, and so God, who is a merciful God, decided to heal Hezekiah, so that he would not die for another 15 years.

The ONLY OTHER OPTION is to say God intentionally lied to get Hezekiah to plead with Him to spare him. Which contradicts the fact that God does not lie.



It also says God doesn't know certain things, and that He also learns things.

Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?



So, does that mean that men also know all things? Go back exactly one chapter, 1 John 2:20.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. - 1 John 2:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John2:20&version=NKJV



What I said earlier, that God can choose what he knows and remembers, and can choose to forget things or retain them, fits that passage to a 'T.'



AGREED! But He doesn't know WHO will not repent.

Just like He knew that Hezekiah would die soon, and told Him, in no uncertain terms, that he would die, along with a command to get his house in order.

But you seem to be forgetting something, and I just realized this after thinking about the portion of your post I'm currently replying to.

You seem to think in your mind that the decision by God to heal Hezekiah was made when He moved the shadow backwards. It wasn't.

The decision was made just after Hezekiah begged God to heal him. Isaiah didn't even have a chance to leave before God changed His mind.

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ”Then Isaiah said, “Take a lump of figs.” So they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What is the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the Lord the third day?”Then Isaiah said, “This is the sign to you from the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing which He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees or go backward ten degrees?”And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; no, but let the shadow go backward ten degrees.”So Isaiah the prophet cried out to the Lord, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz. - 2 Kings 20:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Kings20:1-11&version=NKJV1



I think that, more likely than not, there will be some who do not repent. However, who those people are is not set in stone. Nor is that evidence that God knows the future (let alone exhaustively).

It simply means that such unrepentance will occur because of and in spite of God's actions. And that further supports my position, that God is capable of bringing about the future He desires, in spite of and even using those who hate Him.

The problem with your position is that it takes what the Bible says further than it should.

God doesn't know which people will not repent.

He knows, just like with Hezekiah before God chose to heal him, that some people will not repent. And because God the Father hasn't decided when the Son shall return yet, He simply cannot know specifics. But that DOES NOT MEAN that God cannot bring about that which He said would happen.



Repeating your claim isn't going to make it come true.



You were just shown exactly how God can know that some will not repent, yet not know the future.

At the risk of diluting my point, I have a question:

Did God know prior to His removal of him, that Saul would be included in the bloodline of Christ?

Great post, JudgeRightly! Unfortunately, I have a feeling way 2 go will not understand your reference to King Saul.

 

[way 2 go]

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

Which is why I asked you this:

Do you think that God is incapable of bringing about the end result He desires?

You must not, because you would rather have God locked into Fate where He cannot do anything other than what has already been predetermined that He would do.

there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

You're right, "repent" is the wrong word to use.

If you are not, then the only logical answer is that God knew beforehand that Hezekiah would die, but then Hezekiah, upon hearing that, asked God to spare him, and so God, who is a merciful God, decided to heal Hezekiah, so that he would not die for another 15 years.

The ONLY OTHER OPTION is to say God intentionally lied to get Hezekiah to plead with Him to spare him. Which contradicts the fact that God does not lie.

is that the open theist position that God lied when God said Hezekiah would die ?
or
the open theist God was guessing Hezekiah would die ?

Or does it, in fact, show God deciding to change the outcome and allow Hezekiah to live, when God had stated quite clearly that he would die?

In other words, it boils down to whether you are calling God a liar.

God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .
you want the cart before the horse

Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?

Jesus is God

So, does that mean that men also know all things? Go back exactly one chapter, 1 John 2:20.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. - 1 John 2:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John2:20&version=NKJV

so are you trying to make God in mans image with those two verses

or

proving my point that it is God knows all things as it is from the Holy Spirit that they know all things 1 John 2:20

AGREED! But He doesn't know WHO will not repent.

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.

Just like He knew that Hezekiah would die soon, and told Him, in no uncertain terms, that he would die, along with a command to get his house in order.

But you seem to be forgetting something, and I just realized this after thinking about the portion of your post I'm currently replying to.

You seem to think in your mind that the decision by God to heal Hezekiah was made when He moved the shadow backwards. It wasn't.

no

I think that, more likely than not, there will be some who do not repent. However, who those people are is not set in stone. Nor is that evidence that God knows the future (let alone exhaustively).

God doesn't know which people will not repent.

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.

 

[JudgeRightly]

the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

Again, do you think God is incapable of bringing about the future He desires?

I think He is perfectly capable of doing so, without having to know the future.

is that the open theist position that God lied when God said Hezekiah would die?

That's what I've been trying to ask you the past couple of posts.

Do you think God lied when He told Hezekiah that he would die?

Because God was telling the truth Hezekiah was going to die, and then after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare him, God changed His mind about allowing him to die, and spared him.

Your position has God lying to Hezekiah to achieve the desired result, which was set in stone before the world began.

or the open theist God was guessing Hezekiah would die?

False dichotomy.

God knew Hezekiah was going to die based on his current (at the time) condition. God told the truth to Hezekiah that Hezekiah would die soon, and that he should get his house in order.

God CHANGED the outcome of his prophecy to Hezekiah (which was that he would die) after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare his life, and did so by healing Hezekiah, and all of this is possible because God is CAPABLE of intervening.

Your beliefs have you saying God lied to Hezekiah to achieve a preset result.

God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life

Where is your proof that God knew that He was going to extend his life?

Because if you read the story, all there is is God telling Hezekiah to get his house in order. You don't tell someone that if you're going to heal them.

And for what purpose would God do such a thing? If God knew the future, then He would know that Hezekiah would become exceedingly wicked for the remaining 15 years of his life.

Don't do evil that good may come of it?

God seems to be the one who breaks that rule the most according to your position!

and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

Also:
http://kgov.com/miracles

Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .
you want the cart before the horse

He needed to be told he was dying so that he would pray to live?

Who's putting the cart before the horse again? :dunce:

It also says God doesn't know certain things, and that He also learns things.

Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?

Jesus is God

I'm glad you think so too.

So then you would agree that when Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, not even the Son" (paraphrasing here), then that means that there are some things even God the Son doesn't know, correct?

with those two verses

There is only one verse in the portion you quoted.

so are you trying to make God in mans image

. . .

or

proving my point that it is God knows all things as it is from the Holy Spirit that they know all things 1 John 2:20

I'm trying to get you to realize that "knowing all things" is not exclusive to God, like you seem to think it is.

Do you think man is capable of knowing all things the way God knows all things?

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

at no repentance
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.

Which is more important to God? Prophecy? or Love?

no

Did God know prior to His removal of him, that Saul would be included in the bloodline of Christ?

In other words, was it a statement of fact? or was it a guess? Or was it a lie?

 

[way 2 go]

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

maybe you could try to refute it but

the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

Again, do you think God is incapable of bringing about the future He desires?

I think He is perfectly capable of doing so, without having to know the future.

you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

That's what I've been trying to ask you the past couple of posts.

Do you think God lied when He told Hezekiah that he would die?

Because God was telling the truth Hezekiah was going to die, and then after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare him, God changed His mind about allowing him to die, and spared him.

Your position has God lying to Hezekiah to achieve the desired result, which was set in stone before the world began.

Hezekiah was going to die

False dichotomy.

God knew Hezekiah was going to die based on his current (at the time) condition. God told the truth to Hezekiah that Hezekiah would die soon, and that he should get his house in order.

God CHANGED the outcome of his prophecy to Hezekiah (which was that he would die) after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare his life, and did so by healing Hezekiah, and all of this is possible because God is CAPABLE of intervening.

Your beliefs have you saying God lied to Hezekiah to achieve a preset result
Where is your proof that God knew that He was going to extend his life?

God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .
you want the cart before the horse

Because if you read the story, all there is is God telling Hezekiah to get his house in order. You don't tell someone that if you're going to heal them.

He needed to be told he was dying so that he would pray to live?

Who's putting the cart before the horse again? :dunce:

do you have evidence of him praying to live before he was told he was going to die ?

do you have evidence that had he not been told he was going to die he would have lived ?

And for what purpose would God do such a thing? If God knew the future, then He would know that Hezekiah would become exceedingly wicked for the remaining 15 years of his life.

Don't do evil that good may come of it?
God seems to be the one who breaks that rule the most according to your position!

God healed Hezekiah , are you calling that evil ?

God telling Hezekiah you are going to die ,are you calling that evil ?

So then you would agree that when Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, not even the Son" (paraphrasing here), then that means that there are some things even God the Son doesn't know, correct?

does God know ?

I'm trying to get you to realize that "knowing all things" is not exclusive to God, like you seem to think it is.

Do you think man is capable of knowing all things the way God knows all things?

you are trying to diminish God knows all things ( make God in mans image )
by comparing a verse where it says by the Holy spirit man knows all things

Argumentum ad nauseum

Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess no convincing argument against this so far

 

[JudgeRightly]

maybe you could try to refute it but

I have no obligation to refute a straw man used ad nauseum.

Make an argument worth refuting and I will address it.

the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

. . .

God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .
you want the cart before the horse

. . .

so to the open theist the prophecy is guess no convincing argument against this so far

I will not be responding to the above portions of your post, as they are simply you repeating your claims without supporting them after they have been addressed.

you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future

You have yet to show how knowing the future is a requirement for God.

but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes

Because you say so?

Are you claiming that God is incapable of accomplishing what He desires?

because the open theist God

God is the "open theist[sic] God"

We're talking about the same God here, W2G.

doesn't know the future.

Thankfully, God is capable of bringing about the future He desires without needing to know the future.

Hezekiah was going to die

You say that, but according to your position, Hezekiah was not going to die for another 15 years.

According to your position, Hezekiah was going to live, because God knew that he would pray to Him to spare his life, and God knew that because of that He would heal him.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either Hezekiah was going to die, or God lied to him to get him to pray to God to heal him.

Which is it, Way2Go? Because the latter turns God into a manipulative liar.

do you have evidence of him praying to live before he was told he was going to die ?

Huh?

What kind of an out of left field question is that?

The Bible says that God used Isaiah to tell Hezekiah he was going to die, and get his house in order, and in response to that, Hezekiah pleaded with God to heal him, and that it wasn't but moments later that God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he would be healed.

do you have evidence that had he not been told he was going to die he would have lived ?

God said that Hezekiah was going to die. What reason do you have to doubt Him?

If God says something will come to pass, if circumstances do not change, will that something come to pass?

God healed Hezekiah , are you calling that evil?

It was if God knew about the wicked things Hezekiah would do when God would heal him, because it would make God into a facilitator of evil.

Are you not aware of how arrogant Hezekiah became?

God telling Hezekiah you are going to die ,are you calling that evil?

lain:

does God know?

Know what?

The point is that if Jesus is God (as you and I both believe He is), Jesus not knowing something precludes Him from woodenly literally knowing all things, because that's one thing He doesn't know.

you are trying to diminish God knows all things

No, I'm trying to get you to realize that "knows all things" does NOT mean omniscience.

( make God in mans image )

This is a non-sequitur.

And on the contrary, you're putting God in a box that says He must know everything, past, present, and future.

Whereas the Bible says that God learns, grows in wisdom, is able to put away things from His memory and,

by comparing a verse where it says by the Holy spirit man knows all things

Man is incapable of woodenly literally knowing all things, even with the Holy Spirit's help.

"All things," woodenly literally, are not knowable, because there are some things that are not knowable (for example, the number of hairs on the boogeyman's head).

Therefore, "knows all things" must be a figure of speech that should not be taken woodenly literally, as you do.

 

[Derf]

you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

Let me spell out what you have just said:
"God needs to know to future in order to know what He (God) is going to do, and whether it will be successful."
That makes God dependent on something He doesn't control--the future. Instead "the future" is in control of God. You've just turned God into Zeus, who is subject to "The Fates".

If the future is fixed, then God can know the future, but can't CHANGE the future, else it wouldn't be fixed. So, once again, God is subject to what happens in the future--God is not "God Most High", but "God Almost High".

Hezekiah was going to die

God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life

These statements from you are Open Theist statements, both of them.
If Hezekiah "was" going to die, it implies that the future has changed, or is at least changeable.
If God was going to extend Hezekiah's life, that means Hezekiah's lifespan was "x", and God was going to make it "x + y" ("x" and "y" both being positive numbers). Since the end of life in BOTH cases was in the future, you are saying that God is changing the future.

You are a closet Open Theist.

Don't feel bad about this. Many supposed traditional theists are actually closet open theists. Ask Mr Religion was, though he didn't admit it.

and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
had he not been told he would have died .

You've said this before, and I'm surprised you bring it back up again. You are saying that the only way God could save Hezekiah was for God to lie. But Hezekiah didn't really need saving, since he wasn't really going to die--unless you're an open theist.

I'll add you to my "closet open theist" list.

 

[way 2 go]

Let me spell out what you have just said:
"God needs to know to future in order to know what He (God) is going to do, and whether it will be successful."
That makes God dependent on something He doesn't control--the future. Instead "the future" is in control of God. You've just turned God into Zeus, who is subject to "The Fates".

If the future is fixed, then God can know the future, but can't CHANGE the future, else it wouldn't be fixed. So, once again, God is subject to what happens in the future--God is not "God Most High", but "God Almost High".

Did God need foreknowledge to know Hezekiah was going to die. no
Did God need foreknowledge to keep Hezekiah alive 15 more years . no

your Hezekiah verses are about whether or not the future is settled


God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
and open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish and they may or may not repent.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

These statements from you are Open Theist statements, both of them.
If Hezekiah "was" going to die, it implies that the future has changed, or is at least changeable.
If God was going to extend Hezekiah's life, that means Hezekiah's lifespan was "x", and God was going to make it "x + y" ("x" and "y" both being positive numbers). Since the end of life in BOTH cases was in the future, you are saying that God is changing the future.

You are a closet Open Theist.

Don't feel bad about this. Many supposed traditional theists are actually closet open theists. Ask Mr Religion was, though he didn't admit it.


You've said this before, and I'm surprised you bring it back up again. You are saying that the only way God could save Hezekiah was for God to lie. But Hezekiah didn't really need saving, since he wasn't really going to die--unless you're an open theist.

I'll add you to my "closet open theist" list.

post #9

open theism teaches God guesses

open theism accuses calvinism of having a god that is a stone idol
while
open theism has a god created in mans image

sorry I do not agree with open theism or calvinism