Why would God need a hell?

[freelight]

Freedom of choice is not given in any of those verses; show me where it states that.

And in my view, its impossible to " Qualify yourself for the Kingdom."

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Also note, those evil doers where OUTSIDE of the heavenly city. They apparently were not permitted to enter in. All are judged according to their works. Now if there is a provisional grant of time given to these souls for their repentance, we don't know, but the text clearly shows that some are OUTSIDE the heavenly city, because of their works. The Spirit calls and makes available the waters of life to those who DESIRE it and CHOOSE to receive it. All thru-out the scriptures,...God honors freedom of choice, at least this is shown literally and figuratively thru-out the Bible.

All these passages support 'conditional immortality'.

You already know I'm against the traditional hell-concept and ECT (eternal conscious torment) doctrine. This leaves open 'conditional immortality' or 'universalism' of some kind. If souls can choose self-destruction, then God alone would know when a soul has reached a point of no return, and alone could judge the final demise or disintegration of that soul. In the meantime love will afford all the space and time available for one to choose life, since that is love's will,...but if individual free will is sovereign, and a soul could choose eternal death, then it would be so. Again we come back to the question of free will. The entire covenantal policy between God and Man in the Bible appears to be built upon willful co-operation and the choice to engage and uphold one's own part in the covenant. Freedom of choice, relational co-operation, willful consent, etc.

There appears to be a place 'outside' where souls who do not qualify or desire to be in heavenly concert with God exist for at least a time. Now if these souls continue in iniquity to the point of self-destruction, or are somehow by some miracle of grace, converted to love (and therefore saved), we can only speculate. Many passages in Revelation are not replete or detailed enough to let us know every particular point of certain conditional factors that may pertain to those have a share in the heavenly kingdom, or those who will remain outside of it.

 

[Mickiel]

Also note, those evil doers where OUTSIDE of the heavenly city. They apparently were not permitted to enter in. All are judged according to their works. Now if there is a provisional grant of time given to these souls for their repentance, we don't know, but the text clearly shows that some are OUTSIDE the heavenly city, because of their works. The Spirit calls and makes available the waters of life to those who DESIRE it and CHOOSE to receive it. All thru-out the scriptures,...God honors freedom of choice, at least this is shown literally and figuratively thru-out the Bible.

All these passages support 'conditional immortality'.

You already know I'm against the traditional hell-concept and ECT (eternal conscious torment) doctrine. This leaves open 'conditional immortality' or 'universalism' of some kind. If souls can choose self-destruction, then God alone would know when a soul has reached a point of no return, and alone could judge the final demise or disintegration of that soul. In the meantime love will afford all the space and time available for one to choose life, since that is love's will,...but if individual free will is sovereign, and a soul could choose eternal death, then it would be so. Again we come back to the question of free will. The entire covenantal policy between God and Man in the Bible appears to be built upon willful co-operation and the choice to engage and uphold one's own part in the covenant. Freedom of choice, relational co-operation, willful consent, etc.

There appears to be a place 'outside' where souls who do not qualify or desire to be in heavenly concert with God exist for at least a time. Now if these souls continue in iniquity to the point of self-destruction, or are somehow by some miracle of grace, converted to love (and therefore saved), we can only speculate. Many passages in Revelation are not replete or detailed enough to let us know every particular point of certain conditional factors that may pertain to those have a share in the heavenly kingdom, or those who will remain outside of it.

Well I think your getting the usage of " Outside the city" as a negative bad thing when it is not. In the Kingdom of God, the whole earth is the new world, not just " The city." The whole earth has been changed, and those outside of the city, are still IN the Kingdom of God. God will change the desire of all people, he will change every human consciousness; there will not be " Two different sets of people in the Kingdom of God." We all will be one. Isaiah 45:23 Every person will submit to God, not because of some choice, but because its God's will.

 

[serpentdove]

[John 12:47]

:yawn: Ad infinitum Eph 4:14

 

[serpentdove]

[Matt. 23:15]

:yawn: Ad infinitum Eph 4:14

 

[serpentdove]

People think God has no power to save a disobedient unbelieving mind; how wrong they are, God " Quickens" all things, 1 Tim. 6:13. That means God can " Arouse" any unbelieving mind and stimulate it to belief.

"1 Ti 6:13. quickeneth all things—that is, “maketh alive.” But the oldest manuscripts read, “preserveth alive”; as the same Greek means in Ac 7:19; compare Ne 9:6. He urges Timothy to faithfulness here by the present manifestation of God’s power in preserving all things, as in 1 Ti 6:14, by the future manifestation of God’s power at the appearing of Christ. The assurance that “eternal life,” 1 Ti 6:12, will be the result of “fighting the good fight,” rests on the fulness and power of Him who is the God of all life, present and to come." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 418). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell? Why would God need a religious creation in his plans? The future is not based human religious interpretation.

 

[meshak]

Well I think your getting the usage of " Outside the city" as a negative bad thing when it is not. In the Kingdom of God, the whole earth is the new world, not just " The city." The whole earth has been changed, and those outside of the city, are still IN the Kingdom of God. God will change the desire of all people, he will change every human consciousness; there will not be " Two different sets of people in the Kingdom of God." We all will be one. Isaiah 45:23 Every person will submit to God, not because of some choice, but because its God's will.

You are preaching UR.

 

[Mickiel]

You are preaching UR.

I am not a preacher, but I totally agree with Universal reconciliation, yes. I think God is universal, his love is universal, his Joy is universal, his goodness is universal, his life is universal; I think it then makes sense that his gospel is universal.

 

[meshak]

I am not a preacher, but I totally agree with Universal reconciliation, yes. I think God is universal, his love is universal, his Joy is universal, his goodness is universal, his life is universal; I think it then makes sense that his gospel is universal.

thank you for admitting you are UR.

 

[Mickiel]

thank you for admitting you are UR.

I am not Ur, I just agree with them on Salvation being universal. I walk alone.

 

[meshak]

I am not Ur, I just agree with them on Salvation being universal. I walk alone.

No difference.

I think it is just decent thing to identify yourself as UR since you agree with them, to save everyone trying to figure where your comments are coming from.

blessings.

 

[Mickiel]

No difference.

I think it is just decent thing to identify yourself as UR since you agree with them, to save everyone trying to figure where your comments are coming from.

blessings.

I agree with them on salvation, I don't follow them as a group. I don't attend any of their churches. I am not a member of any of their sites. I am not UR, and if you can't understand that, its just your problem, I walk alone in my belief.

 

[meshak]

I agree with them on salvation, I don't follow them as a group. I don't attend any of their churches. I am not a member of any of their sites. I am not UR, and if you can't understand that, its just your problem, I walk alone in my belief.

You still hold on to the same kind of faith basically. You should be honest about it.

You see, your basic and fundamental belief is that everyone will be saved without following Jesus' teachings or commands.

Jesus says "for God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

If you don't trust Jesus' word, you should not call yourselves Christians.

I know UR claims they are Christians.

 

[Mickiel]

You still hold on to the same kind of faith basically. You should be honest about it.

You see, your basic and fundamental belief is that everyone will be saved without following Jesus' teachings or commands.

Jesus says "for God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

If you don't trust Jesus' word, you should not call yourselves Christians.

I know UR claims they are Christians.

I am not a Christian, I am not UR and I have no faith. And I really don't care that you have a need to brand me as something, or give me a label; I am nothing and I don't listen to any religion, nor do I associate with any group; I don't need to. I like walking alone.

 

[meshak]

I am not a Christian,

Ok, thanks.

So you are here to call Jesus a liar.

You have been quoting Jesus' word over and over, out of context.

 

[Mickiel]

Ok, thanks.

So you are here to call Jesus a liar.

You have been quoting Jesus' word over and over, out of context.

I like Jesus words, I just don't like how Christians interpret them. I don't like the way Christians insult others, like you saying I call Jesus a liar; that is an insult, I have never called Jesus a liar. But I know your going to keep insulting me, its the Christian way. And when I get tired of the insults, I'll ignore you.

 

[meshak]

I like Jesus words, I just don't like how Christians interpret them.

You dismiss many, many Jesus' clear word.

It is dishonest and despicable doing that at Jesus' expense..

 

[Mickiel]

You dismiss many, many Jesus' clear word.

It is dishonest and despicable doing that at Jesus' expense..

I don't agree with you, I don't dismiss anything Jesus said; I don't agree with how you understand Jesus, but I don't call you despicable. I don't visit any of your threads, I don't insult you I don't try to change you , we walk different paths;

Peace on your journey.

 

[Mickiel]

In Heb.7:25 Jesus is able to " Save to the uttermost"; you can't limit that kind of saving power; Jesus is going to help everybody. There will be no need for the Christian hell.

 

[serpentdove]

In Heb.7:25 Jesus is able to " Save to the uttermost"...There will be no need for the Christian hell.

"Heb 7:25. Wherefore—Greek, “Whence”; inasmuch as “He remaineth for ever.”

also—as a natural consequence flowing from the last, at the same time a new and higher thing [ALFORD].

save—His very name JESUS (Heb 7:22) meaning Saviour.

to the uttermost—altogether, perfectly, so that nothing should be wanting afterwards for ever [TITTMANN]. It means “in any wise,” “utterly,” in Lu 13:11.

come unto God—by faith." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 458). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.