Why would God need a hell?

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serpentdove

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In Rev. 22:17 the final message in scripture is the Holy Spirit and Christ saying that if you thirst you can take of the water of life " Freely."

"Re 22:17. Reply of the spiritual Church and John to Christ’s words (Rev 22:7, 12, 16).

the Spirit—in the churches and in the prophets.

the bride—not here called “wife,” as that title applies to her only when the full number constituting the Church shall have been completed. The invitation, “Come,” only holds good while the Church is still but an affianced Bride, and not the actually wedded wife. However, “Come” may rather be the prayer of the Spirit in the Church and in believers in reply to Christ’s “I come quickly,” crying, Even so, “Come” (Rev 22:7, 12); Rev 22:20 confirms this view. The whole question of your salvation hinges on this, that you be able to hear with joy Christ’s announcement, “I come,” and to reply, “Come” [BENGEL]. Come to fully glorify Thy Bride.

let him that heareth—that is, let him that heareth the Spirit and Bride saying to the Lord Jesus, “Come,” join the Bride as a true believer, become part of her, and so say with her to Jesus, “Come.” On “heareth” means “obeyeth”; for until one has obeyed the Gospel call, he cannot pray to Jesus “Come”; so “hear” is used, Rev 1:3; Jn 10:16. Let him that hears and obeys Jesus’ voice (Rev 22:16; Rev 1:3) join in praying “Come.” Compare Rev 6:1, 10; see on Rev 6:1. In the other view, which makes “Come” an invitation to sinners, this clause urges those who themselves hear savingly the invitation to address the same to others, as did Andrew and Philip after they themselves had heard and obeyed Jesus’ invitation, “Come.”

let him that is athirst come—As the Bride, the Church, prays to Jesus, “Come,” so she urges all whosoever thirst for participation in the full manifestation of redemption-glory at His coming to us, to COME in the meantime and drink of the living waters, which are the earnest of “the water of life pure as crystal … out of the throne of God of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1) in the regenerated heaven and earth.

And—so Syriac. But A, B, Vulgate, and Coptic omit “and.”

whosoever will—that is, is willing and desirous. There is a descending climax; Let him that heareth effectually and savingly Christ’s voice, pray individually, as the Bride, the Church, does collectively, “Come, Lord Jesus” (Rev 22:20). Let him who, though not yet having actually heard unto salvation, and so not yet able to join in the prayer, “Lord Jesus, come, “still thirsts for it, come to Christ. Whosoever is even willing, though his desires do not yet amount to positive thirsting, let him take the water of life freely, that is, gratuitously." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, pp. 604–605). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
 

Zeke

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"Wanting?" I suppose warmonger is the next accusation? I 'want' to deal with actuals instead of 'gut feelings' and bruised sentimentalities.

I can ONLY work with what is actually there, not a lot of fluff or overt emoting. Scripture alone must ever be the standard for us. For you Catholics? Tradition and authority is a triple-whammy.

Actuals according to historic assumption is the weak link in you're theological chain, that link of faith is based on a lot of factually missing pieces to the puzzle.

Which is easy to remedy when you introvert the stories Galatians 4:24-28, all those missing extroverted/historic pieces are found.

Luke 17:20-21 isn't that hard to grasp, so the only reason one couldn't, would be deceptive brain washing by religious hypnosis. Luke 19:9 is the symbolic of the inner revelation Galatians 1:12, ever have that happen Lon? how about Romans 8:15-16 ect....you have no power over that type of revelation Lon, no creed, ritual or book can make that happen John 3:8.

Then we have the I am educated and your not mantra, which is a political type diversion away from the simple meat of the message, the milk/literal no matter how much flavoring one adds the over all structure and percentage is still based on milk. Philippians 3:7-9, 2Cor 3:6.

Two metaphysical siblings within man becoming one is the teaching of scripture, not distinct historic physical siblings. The only separation is in behavioral states of mind, that are more or less in everyone depending on the mood, which is where 1Cor 13:1-13, Romans 8:15-16 comes into the theological ditch and pulls you out of the trance/death of the letter, Luke 9:54-55, Matt 11:11.
 

patrick jane

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I have used well over 600 scriptures in this thread, I keep count for people like you who like to accuse with no reason. If I can cherry pick that many scriptures, then the bible is a cherry tree.

you have not used "well over 600 scriptures" :rapture:
 

serpentdove

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In 1 Corinth. 12:6...This same God can work in all religions...

See:

One World Government/Religion :eek:linger:

"1 Co 12:6. operations—(Compare 1 Co 12:10).

same God … worketh—by His Spirit working (1 Co 12:11).

all in all—all of them (the “gifts”) in all the persons (who possess them).

7. But—Though all the gifts flow from the one God, Lord, and Spirit, the “manifestation” by which the Spirit acts (as He is hidden in Himself), varies in each individual.

to every man—to each of the members of the Church severally.

to profit withal—with a view to the profit of the whole body." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 287). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
 

Lon

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Actuals according to historic assumption is the weak link in you're theological chain, that link of faith is based on a lot of factually missing pieces to the puzzle.
:think:
Explain rather, these verses *(just 5 passages):

1. Matthew 7:13-14

2. Matthew 7:21-23

3. Matthew 25:31-46

4. Luke 16:19-31;24

5. Revelation 20:11-15

Which is easy to remedy when you introvert the stories Galatians 4:24-28, all those missing extroverted/historic pieces are found.
The book of Galatians isn't talking about 'no Christianity' but 'no Judaizing.' You go further than the text.

Luke 17:20-21 isn't that hard to grasp, so the only reason one couldn't, would be deceptive brain washing by religious hypnosis.
Or just being wrong, read on to verse 25, the "Kingdom" is Jesus, not 'within you.' He was/is now to be in us, but you are misreading an odd new-age warping into this: "The Kingdom of God is in your midst!" is Jesus-with-them.



Luke 19:9 is the symbolic of the inner revelation Galatians 1:12, ever have that happen Lon?
You are playing fast and loose here with two scriptures. In the first, a sinner was repentant, you know, like the message we share with unbelievers about their sin and the need for a Savior and His righteousness? The second, Galatians 1:12 is specifically about how Jesus came to Paul and chose him to be an Apostle and so was unique. The only commonality is that both men came to salvation. Saul to Paul was the Pharisee. God in grace, saved him. Jesus reached out to Nicodemus as well. All caught up in religion and tradition aren't lost.
how about Romans 8:15-16 ect....you have no power over that type of revelation Lon, no creed, ritual or book can make that happen John 3:8.
:idunno: Nor would I want to. John 8:36

Then we have the I am educated and your not mantra, which is a political type diversion away from the simple meat of the message, the milk/literal no matter how much flavoring one adds the over all structure and percentage is still based on milk. Philippians 3:7-9, 2Cor 3:6.
Yet Paul does boast about them Philippians 3:4 2 Corinthians 12:6

Two metaphysical siblings within man becoming one is the teaching of scripture, not distinct historic physical siblings. The only separation is in behavioral states of mind, that are more or less in everyone depending on the mood, which is where 1Cor 13:1-13, Romans 8:15-16 comes into the theological ditch and pulls you out of the trance/death of the letter, Luke 9:54-55, Matt 11:11.
This kind of talk only confuses the issue. They were two physical siblings representing a spiritual truth.

I have no problem with you preaching the grace, mercy and love of God and applaud it, if it isn't a half-truth/half-lie. Jesus Christ is the Way Truth and Life and no man comes to the Father but through Him. Many of these TOL gurus deny salvation or a need for the Life death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:12 I've still no idea what you actually reject. You spend time on the U-rant book thread, then bad-mouth scriptures (??? not really sure, you rant about them killing or something I've never understood) and in the next post like this one, quote from it. In a nutshell, what do you reject? What of Christianity do you embrace? Can you spend a minute and do that for me in any clarity?
 
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serpentdove

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Why would God need a hell , when in 1 Corinth. 15:3 it states very clearly that Christ died for our sins.


"1 Co 15:3. I delivered unto you—A short creed, or summary of articles of faith, was probably even then existing; and a profession in accordance with it was required of candidates for baptism (Ac 8:37).

first of all—literally, “among the foremost points” (Heb 6:2). The atonement is, in Paul’s view, of primary importance.

which I … received—from Christ Himself by special revelation (compare 1 Co 11:23).

died for our sins—that is, to atone for them; for taking away our sins (1 Jn 3:5; compare Ga 1:4): “gave Himself for our sins” (Is 53:5; 2 Co 5:15; Tit 2:14). The “for” here does not, as in some passages, imply vicarious substitution, but “in behalf of” (Heb 5:3; 1 Pe 2:24). It does not, however, mean merely “on account of,” which is expressed by a different Greek word (Ro 4:25), (though in English Version translated similarly, “for”)." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, pp. 291–292). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
:think:


The book of Galatians isn't talking about 'no Christianity' but 'no Judaizing.' You go further than the text.

Or just being wrong, read on to verse 25, the Kingdom" is Jesus not 'within you.' He was/is now to be in us, but you are misreading an odd new-age warping into this: "The Kingdom of God is in your midst!" is Jesus with them.



Luke 19:9 is the symbolic of the inner revelation Galatians 1:12, ever have that happen Lon? how about Romans 8:15-16 ect....you have no power over that type of revelation Lon, no creed, ritual or book can make that happen John 3:8.

Then we have the I am educated and your not mantra, which is a political type diversion away from the simple meat of the message, the milk/literal no matter how much flavoring one adds the over all structure and percentage is still based on milk. Philippians 3:7-9, 2Cor 3:6.

Two metaphysical siblings within man becoming one is the teaching of scripture, not distinct historic physical siblings. The only separation is in behavioral states of mind, that are more or less in everyone depending on the mood, which is where 1Cor 13:1-13, Romans 8:15-16 comes into the theological ditch and pulls you out of the trance/death of the letter, Luke 9:54-55, Matt 11:11.
[/QUOTE]

The only time the message is time stamped is when it happens within you Galatians 1:12, 1Cor 3:16 and that wasn't introduced or invented by Jesus or the apostles.
All those verses you presented pertain to those who look outwardly walking by literal observations of flesh and blood, blinded by their religion and tradition that make void the spiritual intent/pearls hidden in field which is you, Jonah crying out from the belly/theres your hell Lon under the will of the of the beast, Romans seven!

You're the anti christian who is stuck in labels created by men who want to control minds, warped justice with a warped judgement created on paper for you're minds consumption.
 

serpentdove

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Can you explain to us the righteousness behind the Christian theology of eternal hell? What's right about it?...
"If you hit your neighbor, you might be arrested and go to jail for a while. If you hit the President, you will be arrested and go to jail for a longer while. ...If you offend a holy God (Re 18:5, Nu 15:30; Ps 74:18), your punishment is rightfully eternal (Geraci). See: My God Would Never Send me to Hell..." Full text: Eternal torment or Annihilation? What happens to the Wicked
 

Mickiel

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you have not used "well over 600 scriptures" :rapture:



The scripture count at this point in thread, is 681. The count increases when I post a link that gives 50 scriptures, or 30 scriptures, I add those. And I have only done that about three times. I hold no interest in lying about the amount of scriptures I use, because I increased the amount I plan on using to 1,000.

And believe me, I will use more than that if I have to.
 

serpentdove

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"Luke 9:56...For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

"The Son of Man Rejected by Humankind (9:51–19:27)

9:51–56 Some “Bad Samaritans.” Knowing his death was near, Jesus “resolutely set out for Jerusalem” (9:51). His arrival there is recorded in 19:28. The events and teachings of 9:51–19:27 may not all have occurred on this final journey. Many of these events and teachings are reported only by Luke. Mark covers this final journey in just one chapter (Mark 10).

When poorly received by a village of Samaria, the disciples showed their prejudice by urging Jesus to destroy the village (9:51–54). Without commenting on the worthiness of those particular Samaritans, Jesus noted that he had come to save life, not destroy it." Willmington, H. L. (1997). Willmington’s Bible handbook (pp. 586–587). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
 

Mickiel

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You're the anti christian who is stuck in labels created by men who want to control minds, warped justice with a warped judgement created on paper for you're minds consumption.[/QUOTE]


I like this because I consider eternal hell torment as warped as one could get; but look at how the Christian mind is going for it. Now, I know they think its scripture, many of their hearts are not trying to be evil or anything like that, its merely a seduction or mistranslation of scripture, and a failure to understand how God will do his punishing; because he will punish.

Only 2 Pet. 2:4 speaks in an eternal sense for punishing. Lets look at that;, " For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." Some translations render an eternal sense to this, and some don't. I even doubt that God will punish demons forever, chained away in some cast off place. I say that doubt, because my study of God puts his mind as ultra reasoning, what kind of reason or sense does it make for God to keep something he does not like, around for all eternity? It makes no sense whatever, not when he could simply " Will them out of existence!"

Because the verse gives impression that the angels once existed as good angels, which I disagree with; they were created evil from their conception, they do what they were created to do, when their use is up, then dismantle them. Why punish them for doing what they were conceived to do? I don't believe a spirit being can willfully change their nature and " Go bad', or go off and turn from good to evil, I don't believe that.

And I don't believe that the justice of God is warped. God is not some kind of " Ego maniac being", who gets mad if you don't believe in him or obey him. Because he understands WHY people don't believe and he knows he can change that at any time he pleases. A change in human nature that causes an unbeliever to become a believer, is NOT done by human will and decision, its PUT into the human by God! Eph. 2:8 is totally ignored, " For by grace you have been saved,( its nothing your self will decided, its not a thing you put in your own mind), its not OF YOURSELVES, it was a given gift!" Christianity thinks its a self willed decision, I disagree with that.
 

serpentdove

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If you don't mind, again Jesus in Luke 11:44...


:eek:linger: "Lk 11:44 greetings—(See on Mt 23:7–10).

44. appear not, &c.—As one might unconsciously walk over a grave concealed from view, and thus contract ceremonial defilement, so the plausible exterior of the Pharisees kept people from perceiving the pollution they contracted from coming in contact with such corrupt characters. (See Ps 5:9; Ro 3:13; a different illustration from Mt 23:27).

46. burdens grievous, &c.—referring not so much to the irksomeness of the legal rites (though they were irksome, Ac 15:10), as to the heartless rigor with which they were enforced, and by men of shameless inconsistency.

47, 48. ye build, &c.—Out of pretended respect and honor, they repaired and beautified the sepulchres of the prophets, and with whining hypocrisy said, “If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets,” while all the time they “were witnesses to themselves that they were the children of them that killed the prophets” (Mt 23:29, 30); convicting themselves daily of as exact a resemblance in spirit and character to the very classes over whose deeds they pretended to mourn, as child to parent." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, pp. 110–111). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
 

Mickiel

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You hear people talk about how to exegete scripture, but it can be so simple, yet a religious mindset that has been crowed with years of traditional deception, simply cannot do it. In example, look at the simplicity in this;

Matt. 6:10, again and again Jesus, " Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done." Here Jesus teaches that God's will, is going to get done. Plus, its Jesus prayer to the Father that his will be done; it got answered. But religion does not believe that, the followers of God don't believe his will be done; because his will is greater than their belief systems. Put Matt. 6:10 with 2:pet. 3:9, " The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us ward, not " WILLING" that ANY should perish but ALL come to repentance!"

Its God's expressed WILL that all men be saved, and Jesus prayed that God's will be done! The religious people, the followers of God, do not believe that God answered Jesus prayer! I do! I certainly believe that God's will is being done. His will is that none perish; there will be no eternal death or punishing for humans.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Insanity is what it is......

Insanity is what it is......

Theological induced psychosis is the hardest to break through to, generational worship is passed down through religious/traditional institutions that turn them into political like loyalist no matter how absurd the platform, they will campaign for it.

Sad but true. The injustice of their concept of 'hellfire' magnifies the absurdity of it all, plus the insanity which warps a sense of true justice to the point of self-torture and eternal fatalism. Life is what you make of it, be it heavenly or hellish, and every soul is conditioned by the law of karma (action - sequence - consequence). The law of responsibility is wholly fair and each reap what they sow thereby. The law of progress also sees that all suffering and pain can lead to corrective measures and reformation, and all potentials ultimately tend toward their fulfilment. To keep souls forever in a state of eternal stagnation and suffering is illogical to love and antithetical to life. To assume 'God' is behind such is doubly incredulous.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Ah, so "I personally don't like it" is your only mantra and objection then. Gotcha. If you were God, I'd worry. A limited finite fallen creature? :nono:


No, as my commentaries before prove, the concept of ECT is illogical, insane and unjust on many levels. It violates reason and morality, and is objectionable on principle alone. Its a fantasy of superstitious and warped minds to assume God will impose eternal suffering and punishment to no end on any sentient being.
 
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Zeke

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Sad but true. The injustice of their concept of 'hellfire' magnifies the absurdity of it all, plus the insanity which warps a sense of true justice to the point of self-torture and eternal fatalism. Life is what you make of it, be it heavenly or hellish, and every soul is conditioned by the law of karma (action - sequence - consequence). The law of responsibility is wholly fair and each reap what they sow thereby. The law of progress also sees that all suffering and pain can lead to corrective measures and reformation, and all potentials ultimately tend toward their fulfilment. To keep souls forever in a state of eternal stagnation and suffering is illogical to love and antithetical to life. To assume 'God' is behind such is doubly incredulous.

Transcendence is forbidden knowledge, and for good reason seeing it frees the mind from the worlds mental slave markets that buy and sell Doctrinally drugged Souls through paper stocks and bonds.
 

Mickiel

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No, as my commentaries before prove, the concept of ECT is illogical, insane and unjust on many levels. It violates reason and morality, and is objectable on principle alone. Its a fantasy of superstitious and warped minds to assume God will impose eternal suffering and punishment to no end on any sentient being.

I agree so much; its like some believers in God seem to think his principles include a trace of extreme merciless content. I don't think their minds are able to totally comprehend just how long forever is. They don't seem to get that an eternity of punishing would surpass how old the universe itself is; that's over 13.7 million years! Their concept of hell would be 999 billion more times than that, on into infinity! But in some cases, the Christian mindset is totally seared; some of them actually think the universe is only 7,000 years old.

You can get through to a mindset like that. The truth has taken on a far different meaning to that kind of mentality. It rips the true principles of God apart, and gives God a character than is more human than divine. But they don't care about that, they care more for their doctrines, and their religion. Something " Other Than" the truth has been birthed.
 
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