Why Stop At Birth?

[Stripe]

Okay, I admit my answer was dumb.

:shocked:

Let me give this another try.

:up:

I was attempting to differentiate between the carnal man who breaks the law, is punished and goes on with his life, and those who experience conviction of sin which leads to faith.

Generally when I speak about the law, I don't care how a man reacts to receiving justice, as long as he in fact receives justice.

Breaking the law and getting caught is not what leads us to Christ. Nor is the punishment, no matter how light or heavy.

I think you're still phrasing what you believe incorrectly. The law and punishment does point people to Christ. What it doesn't do is save.

Rather, it's that "aha" moment when we realize that lust itself is wrong. When we see our guilt in the eyes of God...not the eyes of any man. We don't have to get arrested by the police to have this "aha" moment Paul is speaking of here. "When the commandment came"....that is referring to that moment of conviction.

Right.

For the purposes of discussion, when I speak of the law, I only ever consider it the set of commandments that are applicable today. The discussion is best when couched in the rules governments have. Do their regulations meet God's standards? Are they good laws? If they are, they help teach that God is real. If they aren't, their societies will degrade.

 

[glorydaz]

:shocked:

:up:

Generally when I speak about the law, I don't care how a man reacts to receiving justice, as long as he in fact receives justice.

Then wouldn't justice require that all men be found guilty?

Otherwise, only those who get caught receive justice. :think:

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

I think you're still phrasing what you believe incorrectly. The law and punishment does point people to Christ. What it doesn't do is save.

True it doesn't save. But, how does it point people to Christ? Maybe if you gave me an example or two.

For the purposes of discussion, when I speak of the law, I only ever consider it the set of commandments that are applicable today. The discussion is best when couched in the rules governments have. Do their regulations meet God's standards? Are they good laws? If they are, they help teach that God is real. If they aren't, their societies will degrade.

That sounds good until you add the punishments God exacted from Israel. And the standards.....

God's standards were too high a bar for His own nation to keep, which is why He added the sacrifices and offerings...lest they all be put to death.

 

[Stripe]

Then wouldn't justice require that all men be found guilty?

No. Because we're only talking about the law: Do not murder, do not steal, etc.

People should only be found guilty of the law according to their actions that breach it.

Otherwise, only those who get caught receive justice.

That's all we're capable of.

You're talking about God's judgement. He looks at the heart and all will face Him. A government is not able to do that.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

The key in that passage is "before God."

True it doesn't save. But, how does it point people to Christ? Maybe if you gave me an example or two.

Do not murder and the death penalty
make sense only if we are created in the image of God. Have those in place and try to justify them without appealing to the divine. The best that can be done is: "Because I say so."

That sounds good until you add the punishments God exacted from Israel. And the standards.....

We aren't Israel.

God's standards were too high a bar for His own nation to keep, which is why He added the sacrifices and offerings...lest they all be put to death.

Governments today aren't expected to judge as God will; they can't anyway.

They are expected to do what they can, and are authorized and obligated to do.

 

[ok doser]

when it comes to rape, murder, child molestation, etc, fear of death or punishment is enough of a motivator to control behaviors

i don't really give a crap about sincere change that comes from the heart :idunno:

The only thing that will control those people is an armed citizen.

"those people"??? :freak:

those people are you and me, our children, our parents

we all have the seed of evil living in us, we all are prone to do evil

 

[glorydaz]

No. Because we're only talking about the law: Do not murder, do not steal, etc.

People should only be found guilty of the law according to their actions that breach it.

That's all we're capable of.

You're talking about God's judgement. He looks at the heart and all will face Him. A government is not able to do that.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

The key in that passage is "before God."

Do not murder and the death penalty
make sense only if we are created in the image of God. Have those in place and try to justify them without appealing to the divine. The best that can be done is: "Because I say so."

We aren't Israel.



Governments today aren't expected to judge as God will; they can't anyway.

They are expected to do what they can, and are authorized and obligated to do.

I can agree with you IF you're saying what I think you're saying.

We can quickly clear this up.

Do you believe people should be forced to marry if they have sex?
Do you believe homosexuals should be put to death?
Do you believe those who commit adultery should be subject to death?
Do you think perjury is a death penalty offence?

 

[glorydaz]

when it comes to rape, murder, child molestation, etc, fear of death or punishment is enough of a motivator to control behaviors

i don't really give a crap about sincere change that comes from the heart :idunno:

"those people"??? :freak:

those people are you and me, our children, our parents

Those people....murderers, rapists, and child molesters. Maybe you, but not me.

we all have the seed of evil living in us, we all are prone to do evil

Then shoot those dang "seeds" too.

And here doser wants to have his cake and eat it, too. :chuckle:

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. How can the law teach people that God is real?

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” - Romans 7:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7&version=NKJV

 

[glorydaz]

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” - Romans 7:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7&version=NKJV

And? I know the verse, but I don't see it as an answer to my question.

Don't forget....

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

Knowing the difference between right and wrong via our conscience does not convince people of the reality of God. We see evidence of that all around us. Atheists are often the most giving and "moral" people around...as they make themselves out to be gods.

Therefore, the law, itself, is not what leads people to God. It is only the conviction of sin that accomplishes that. And that is accomplished on an entirely different level than that of the flesh.

 

[JudgeRightly]

And? I know the verse, but I don't see it as an answer to my question.

Don't forget....

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

Knowing the difference between right and wrong via our conscience does not convince people of the reality of God. We see evidence of that all around us. Atheists are often the most giving and "moral" people around...as they make themselves out to be gods.

Therefore, the law, itself, is not what leads people to God. It is only the conviction of sin that accomplishes that. And that is accomplished on an entirely different level than that of the flesh.

Those without God reject concepts such as sin.

The law is used to show that sin is real, and not just some made up thing, and that the only way out of the eternal punishment is God, even if one still suffers the temporal punishment.

 

[glorydaz]

Those without God reject concepts such as sin.

They don't reject the concept of wrong and right.

The law is used to show that sin is real, and not just some made up thing, and that the only way out of the eternal punishment is God, even if one still suffers the temporal punishment.

But, I thought we were talking about Law and the government.

Knowing it's wrong to rob a bank because the money doesn't belong to me, and knowing I would be punished for robbing a bank has nothing to do with God. It's simply crime and punishment here in this world of flesh.

 

[JudgeRightly]

They don't reject the concept of wrong and right.

No, but they do reject that it's an objective standard, asserting that it's arbitrary, or something that society decided upon.

But, I thought we were talking about Law and the government.

We are.

Knowing it's wrong to rob a bank because the money doesn't belong to me, and knowing I would be punished for robbing a bank has nothing to do with God. It's simply crime and punishment here in this world of flesh.

Sure it does.

If God did not exist, then there would be no such thing as an objective standard for right and wrong.

God is the standard. By saying there is no God, then those who reject Him can do whatever they please without fear of consequences.

 

[glorydaz]

No, but they do reject that it's an objective standard, asserting that it's arbitrary, or something that society decided upon.

Yes, some do. Many do not, however.

Right and wrong are indelibly written in the conscience of all men.

Whether they recognize there is a God who created us that way is a different matter.

We are.

Good, it's not so easy to look at the law from the eyes of the world, is it? :chuckle:

Sure it does.

If God did not exist, then there would be no such thing as an objective standard for right and wrong.

God is the standard. By saying there is no God, then those who reject Him can do whatever they please without fear of consequences.

That's true enough, but knowing that and convincing people of that are two different things.

 

[ok doser]

Those people....murderers, rapists, and child molesters. Maybe you...

definitely me - i have had murder in my heart often

, but not me.

:shut:

And here doser wants to have his cake and eat it, too. :chuckle:

i don't understand what you're saying here

 

[ok doser]

Right and wrong are indelibly written in the conscience of all men.

is adultery right or wrong?

is homosexuality right or wrong?

 

[Arthur Brain]

And? I know the verse, but I don't see it as an answer to my question.

Don't forget....

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

Knowing the difference between right and wrong via our conscience does not convince people of the reality of God. We see evidence of that all around us. Atheists are often the most giving and "moral" people around...as they make themselves out to be gods.

Therefore, the law, itself, is not what leads people to God. It is only the conviction of sin that accomplishes that. And that is accomplished on an entirely different level than that of the flesh.

Hmm, I don't see how you're equating atheism with people making themselves out to be gods to be fair, certainly those who are reasonable at any rate. Most I know just see themselves as part of a circle of life and try to make the best of it without a belief in an afterlife or deity. They're just unconvinced that a god exists although aside from the more "anti theist" variety, they're not adamant about it. I'm reminded of Alwight (sadly passed now I think) and his being accused of hating God by aCW. He had no rancour and was absolutely honest about his lack of belief but he didn't rule the possibility out or would be averse to it. Most atheists (and people in general) would be averse to the kinds of laws that are advocated on this thread however.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Those without God reject concepts such as sin.

The law is used to show that sin is real, and not just some made up thing, and that the only way out of the eternal punishment is God, even if one still suffers the temporal punishment.

People who aren't "religious" may not see right and wrong in terms of "sin" but most recognize that the taking of life, cruelty etc isn't moral.

Your latter is just your personal take on what law is there for as you can no more prove "eternal hell" is real than you can your own subjective take on it. How is that supposed to convince people that God is real?

 

[glorydaz]

Hmm, I don't see how you're equating atheism with people making themselves out to be gods to be fair, certainly those who are reasonable at any rate. Most I know just see themselves as part of a circle of life and try to make the best of it without a belief in an afterlife or deity. They're just unconvinced that a god exists although aside from the more "anti theist" variety, they're not adamant about it. I'm reminded of Alwight (sadly passed now I think) and his being accused of hating God by aCW. He had no rancour and was absolutely honest about his lack of belief but he didn't rule the possibility out or would be averse to it. Most atheists (and people in general) would be averse to the kinds of laws that are advocated on this thread however.

I say that in the sense that they see no higher power than man.

Top of the evolutionary chain or that sort of thing.

 

[ok doser]

... to convince people that God is real?

all men know God is real :sigh:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

those who choose to reject Him are without excuse for the damnation they face

 

[Arthur Brain]

I say that in the sense that they see no higher power than man.

Top of the evolutionary chain or that sort of thing.

Well, there's no doubting that man is at the top of the "food chain" no matter what one's beliefs but most people I know who doubt that there's a god aren't doing so out of ego is all. The kind of stuff proposed on here would likely make them even more cynical more than anything.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No, but they do reject that it's an objective standard, asserting that it's arbitrary, or something that society decided upon.



We are.



Sure it does.

If God did not exist, then there would be no such thing as an objective standard for right and wrong.

God is the standard. By saying there is no God, then those who reject Him can do whatever they please without fear of consequences.

Do you need a belief in God not to be cruel to someone? To not murder someone? To not steal from your neighbour for fear of something that might happen to you in an afterlife? If the only reason you don't act to the detriment of your fellow man is out of fear of consequence then there's nothing moral about that JR.