Theology Club: Why is it believed that all men are condemned from birth?

[Cross Reference]

throwing a few distraction pics to lighten the mood from all the many weighty and lofty discussions.

lol

I would like to read your views on this OP.

 

[Word based mystic]

condemned = lacking
condemned = insufficient even perishable
destined or judged for eternal change or destruction

 

[beloved57]

Those my Christ died for are born into this world as sinners, but not condemned! They are born Justified before God from all their sins based on the blood of Christ Rom 5:9 !

 

[Lighthouse]

As it is written:“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

-Romans 3:10-12

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
-Romans 5:12

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
-1 Corinthians 15:50

We are not born righteous, but rather unrighteous. This is why we are condemned from birth.

 

[Cross Reference]

As it is written:“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

-Romans 3:10-12

Only with regards to the context of what Paul was saying is that a true statement otherwise, having it apply on a unversal scale without qualitying it is grossly inaccurate.

We are not born righteous, but rather unrighteous. This is why we are condemned from birth.

We were born innocent/blameless. That is a fact easily supported by scripture.

 

[beloved57]

As it is written:“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

-Romans 3:10-12

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
-Romans 5:12

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
-1 Corinthians 15:50

We are not born righteous, but rather unrighteous. This is why we are condemned from birth.

Those my Christ died for are born righteous, they were made righteous by His obedience Rom 5:19! I don't know nothing about the Christ you believe in!

 

[Lighthouse]

Only with regards to the context of what Paul was saying is that a true statement otherwise, having it apply on a unversal scale without qualitying it is grossly inaccurate.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
-Psalm 51:5

“What is man, that he could be pure?
And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?”
-Job 15:14

We were born innocent/blameless. That is a fact easily supported by scripture.

Then support it.

 

[Ardima]

First, before I continue, I would like to apologize for completely skipping the post I am about to comment on.

And that day came and Adam died. Where is the implication of a decree in that?

And the day came and Adam died is my point. There is not one "warning" in the OT that God declares that doesn't come to pass. It is not strange to me that what the Eternal One says will surely come to pass.

But God [fore]knew and pre-planned for Adam's failure. .

Can you provide a scripture that says God preplanned for anything? I guarantee you will not find a single one that shows that God preplanned anything. God does not preplan for the possibility of sin. It is a mistake to limit God with foreknowledge by disassociating
from the attribute of omniscience. God did not preplan anything because the very concept of preplanning goes against the nature of God's omniscience.

1. It is a mistake to to believe God's warnings are decrees. It muddies the water of what He purposes for our understanding when doing so. In yellow is not a decree bur a warning that carries with it a penalty for doing so. It is not something for which God purposes but of His Holiness, can only abide by.

Whether it is a just a warning or a decree is of little l aittle importance. All that the Lord speaks will come to pass. the fact still remains

 

[Cross Reference]

First, before I continue, I would like to apologize for completely skipping the post I am about to comment on.
And the day came and Adam died is my point. There is not one "warning" in the OT that God declares that doesn't come to pass. It is not strange to me that what the Eternal One says will surely come to pass.

But your 'theme' in all this is that man doesn't have choice. Am I wrong in that?

Can you provide a scripture that says God preplanned for anything? I guarantee you will not find a single one that shows that God preplanned anything. God does not preplan for the possibility of sin. It is a mistake to limit God with foreknowledge by disassociating
from the attribute of omniscience. God did not preplan anything because the very concept of preplanning goes against the nature of God's omniscience.

What is God then given to do to bring about His intentions, just little let everything 'fall'/fail with no way to "rescue" it? Does that make sense to you? Why not first consider what God had in mind [SET IN HIMSELF] that, of necessity had to undergo a time of proving before He could claim success in the eyes of those watching? We must keep in mind Lucifers failure and how it came about God uses it to prove His reasoning for conducting His business on man's level of understanding without man initially realizing it. Read the scriptures with that in mind and see what you come up with __ "first the natural and then the spiritual" 1Cor. 15:46.

Whether it is a just a warning or a decree is of little l aittle importance. All that the Lord speaks will come to pass. the fact still remains

I well understand that.

This question should cut to the chase: Is a persons salvation by decree?

 

[Cross Reference]

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
-Psalm 51:5

David is saying he was "conceived in sin" __ not to be confused with being born.

“What is man, that he could be pure?
And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?”
-Job 15:14

"Could" or should, be righteous?

Then support it.

Support what? A man is born innocent/blameless? Why the need to suppport that truth when the Bible will given you understanding if you want it?

Ask yourself what consitutes unrighteousness except to the thing that is unrighteous. Can baby do that? Does he have understanding of the law?

 

[Lighthouse]

David is saying he was "conceived in sin" __ not to be confused with being born.

"Could" or should, be righteous?

Support what? A man is born innocent/blameless? Why the need to suppport that truth when the Bible will given you understanding if you want it?

:doh:

Where, in Scripture, are we told that we are born blameless?

Ask yourself what consitutes unrighteousness except to the thing that is unrighteous. Can baby do that? Does he have understanding of the law?

Unrighteousness is the opposite of righteousness. God is righteous; we are not, without him. There is no act we can perform to make us either. We are not born righteous. God makes us righteous. Knowledge of the Law only shows us what we are. It does not make us that way.:nono:

 

[Cross Reference]

:doh:

Where, in Scripture, are we told that we are born blameless?


Unrighteousness is the opposite of righteousness. God is righteous; we are not, without him. There is no act we can perform to make us either. We are not born righteous. God makes us righteous. Knowledge of the Law only shows us what we are. It does not make us that way.:nono:

Quit playing with my words. Grow up. Get understanding. Read your Bible. Learn the elementary truths of it before stepping out to challenge anyone.

 

[Ardima]

But your 'theme' in all this is that man doesn't have choice. Am I wrong in that?

When we look at scripture as a whole we can get a complete view of God's plan. From beginning to end the focus of the Bible is the love of God toward mankind. The theme of the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Without the Gospel we would not truly know the love of God. If Adam was not given the command not to eat of the tree, there would have been no need for Christ to die and subsequently no way to truly know the love of God toward us. Where there is no law sin is not imputed. Without the knowledge of good and evil man couldn't truly worship God for who He is because there would be no contrast between our human nature and the Eternal Nature of God.

To anwer you question: my theme in all of this is the complete sovereignty of God.

What is God then given to do to bring about His intentions, just little let everything 'fall'/fail with no way to "rescue" it? Does that make sense to you? Why not first consider what God had in mind [SET IN HIMSELF] that, of necessity had to undergo a time of proving before He could claim success in the eyes of those watching? We must keep in mind Lucifers failure and how it came about God uses it to prove His reasoning for conducting His business on man's level of understanding without man initially realizing it. Read the scriptures with that in mind and see what you come up with __ "first the natural and then the spiritual" 1Cor. 15:46.

There isnt a "fall/failure" when it was God's plan from the beginning.

This question should cut to the chase: Is a persons salvation by decree?

You are thinking too small.

(1 Corinthians 15:22-23) For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ will all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order... The salvation of all men are secured in Christ. The "when and how" we believe is what He lets us decide...

 

[Stripe]

If using one word to define, please elaborate.

Condemn = Judged guilty of sin and sentenced.

In this use of the word condemn do we not need to know what it means and why it is assumed man is, from birth?

People are not condemned from birth.

 

[Cross Reference]

When we look at scripture as a whole we can get a complete view of God's plan. From beginning to end the focus of the Bible is the love of God toward mankind.

Love toward mankind that God should command him from the beginning? What is that all about?

The theme of the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, how so since that wasn't what it is was from the beginning?

W

ithout the Gospel we would not truly know the love of God.

Again and again, How so? Abraham was His friend. David was after His heart. Where is that is the gospel?

If Adam was not given the command not to eat of the tree, there would have been no need for Christ to die and subsequently no way to truly know the love of God toward us.

How so?

Where there is no law sin is not imputed. Without the knowledge of good and evil man couldn't truly worship God for who He is because there would be no contrast between our human nature and the Eternal Nature of God.

So, you say God intended Adam to fail? What would have happened had he obeyed God? He had a freewill to do so., and why couldn't the Word of God have been incarnated in Adam because of his obedience? That is how Jesus did it?

To anwer you question: my theme in all of this is the complete sovereignty of God.

In administering His sovereignty, God never violates Himself. What is His Character that confirms that except the visible life and death of Jesus Who demonstrated it that He could not alter?

There isnt a "fall/failure" when it was God's plan from the beginning.

Explain the plan that required Adam to fail with consequences for all mankind you claim He loved, had to wait 4000 yrs to be redeemed? What did God intend for Adam that he should have been but the "fall" guy for Jesus after having been promised the dominion over the whole world had he obeyed God?

You are thinking too small.

You aren't thinking at all.

(1 Corinthians 15:22-23) For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ will all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order... The salvation of all men are secured in Christ. The "when and how" we believe is what He lets us decide...

Yes, yes, I know all that __ you can't explain.

 

[Ardima]

Love toward mankind that God should command him from the beginning? What is that all about?

It seems to me that you are just wasting my time. You either understand what I am saying and just want to argue; or you refuse to see it

Again, how so since that wasn't what it is was from the beginning?

It wasn't? Jesus is the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. In the eyes of God it was like that BEFORE the beginning!!

Again and again, How so? Abraham was His friend. David was after His heart. Where is that is the gospel?

Your response does not make any sense. Why does Abraham or David have to be part of the Gospel?

How so?

Humans understand things by contrast. You only know what "hot" is because we have experienced "cold." This applies to every part of creation. We only understand the Love of God because we have experienced condemnation. If you cannot grasp this simple concept I am wasting my time and will go elsewhere.

So, you say God intended Adam to fail? What would have happened had he obeyed God? He had a freewill to do so., and why couldn't the Word of God have been incarnated in Adam because of his obedience? That is how Jesus did it?

There is no "what ifs" or "what would" with God. Hypothetical situations are only used to distract from the truth. Everything has happened he way it has because God planned it that way from the beginning. Something you cannot seem to grasp.

In administering His sovereignty, God never violates Himself. What is His Character that confirms that except the visible life and death of Jesus Who demonstrated it that He could not alter?

God is eternal; that is, exhaustively complete. If He could alter or violate Himself He would not be eternal by the very definition. You do not need the Bible to figure that out. Actually, the Bible is the only book that describes God as He must be; this is how we know the Bible is trust worthy.

Explain the plan that required Adam to fail with consequences for all mankind you claim He loved, had to wait 4000 yrs to be redeemed? What did God intend for Adam that he should have been but the "fall" guy for Jesus after having been promised the dominion over the whole world had he obeyed God?

When was Adam promised dominion over the whole earth? Adam was commanded to subdue the earth and rule over creation. I have explained the plan over and over. Do not waste my time arguing about things that you refuse to comprehend.

You aren't thinking at all.

So what you are saying is that I am wrong simply because you thing man has free will? The doctrine of free will is[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes, I know all that __ you can't explain.

I think that verse is pretty clear... I see it was a mistake to think that you would be willing to have a decent conversation. May God open your ears and your heart.

 

[Word based mystic]

quote from ardima " So what you are saying is that I am wrong simply because you thing man has free will? The doctrine of free will is"

you ignore much of scripture in order to affirm your calvin gospel.

your whole angle is looking through calvin eyes.

adam was given not (promised) dominion over the earth.
within the command to subdue came the ability and dominion.

the earth does not long for the manifestation of the sons of God for no reason.

you also quote "Humans understand things by contrast. You only know what "hot" is because we have experienced "cold." This applies to every part of creation. We only understand the Love of God because we have experienced condemnation"

that quote is pure speculation. kinda like we only conscious thought because at one time we once had no thoughts. lol
or
we only understand self awareness because we at one time were unaware.
lol

we only understand pain is bad because we can experience pleasure.
lol

we only understand life because at one time we did not exist and in that non existence we understood what that non existence meant.

you promote an occultic yin/yang goobley gock. balance and contrast baaahhh occult yin yang

no good without evil LOL

God needs an evil counterpart to exist lol
this contrast theory is really silly

 

[Cross Reference]

quote from ardima " So what you are saying is that I am wrong simply because you thing man has free will? The doctrine of free will is"

you ignore much of scripture in order to affirm your calvin gospel.

your whole angle is looking through calvin eyes.

adam was given not (promised) dominion over the earth.
within the command to subdue came the ability and dominion.

the earth does not long for the manifestation of the sons of God for no reason.

you also quote "Humans understand things by contrast. You only know what "hot" is because we have experienced "cold." This applies to every part of creation. We only understand the Love of God because we have experienced condemnation"

that quote is pure speculation. kinda like we only conscious thought because at one time we once had no thoughts. lol
or
we only understand self awareness because we at one time were unaware.
lol

we only understand pain is bad because we can experience pleasure.
lol

we only understand life because at one time we did not exist and in that non existence we understood what that non existence meant.

you promote an occultic yin/yang goobley gock. balance and contrast baaahhh occult yin yang

no good without evil LOL

God needs an evil counterpart to exist lol
this contrast theory is really silly

Thank you Wbm,

What more can I add or say the could possibly make more clear where the problem lies that was born from the embryonic fluid religious doctrinal error.

To rectify his thinking, Ardima needs a proper starting point for understanding the "why" of man's existence; God's ultimate intention for having brought him into existence.. Certainly, it was NOT for the purpose of redeeming him, which makes no sense at all. It was, however, for the purpose of making him the center piece of Himself, the Godhead; the bringing together of the 3 identities of the Godhead and summing them up in Divine human flesh. To have for Himself a vast family of sons birthed into existence by the very LIFE of Himself summed up in one "qualified" human being Who would then propagate it. This is what was in His Mind "from the beginning", in His foreknowledge, where He could foresee all of the failures born in hope that would of necessity, occur, but pre-planned for success.
See Gen 6:6 KJV; Rom 8:20-21 KJV.

God wanted His Mind summed up in the heart of man. To accomplish this, man needed a freewill. That is NOT arguable, freewill being part of the image of God, for which man was created that he be equipped to make choices that would reflect his ambition upon weighing his options for himself alone. There was no indwelling Divine vision, nor could be at this time of proving. Freedom to choose and the "ground rules" were as we read of them in the Genesis account. Let them say what the say that the remaining scriptures throughout the Bible, might serve to explain the account.

Why God wanted to share Himself in such a way, we don't know. However, it was His Will and His Ultimate sovereignty, bound by His Holy Character, that would accomplish it which was also summed up it in the "ground rules" between Himself and the angels given to watch it all unfold, i.e., God could NOT violate Himself __ the governing indeed, very existence, of all vast eternity was at stake.

. . . The first Adam, failed.

 

[Cross Reference]

It seems to me that you are just wasting my time. You either understand what I am saying and just want to argue; or you refuse to see it



It wasn't? Jesus is the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. In the eyes of God it was like that BEFORE the beginning!!

Your response does not make any sense. Why does Abraham or David have to be part of the Gospel?

Humans understand things by contrast. You only know what "hot" is because we have experienced "cold." This applies to every part of creation. We only understand the Love of God because we have experienced condemnation. If you cannot grasp this simple concept I am wasting my time and will go elsewhere.



There is no "what ifs" or "what would" with God. Hypothetical situations are only used to distract from the truth. Everything has happened he way it has because God planned it that way from the beginning. Something you cannot seem to grasp.



God is eternal; that is, exhaustively complete. If He could alter or violate Himself He would not be eternal by the very definition. You do not need the Bible to figure that out. Actually, the Bible is the only book that describes God as He must be; this is how we know the Bible is trust worthy.



When was Adam promised dominion over the whole earth? Adam was commanded to subdue the earth and rule over creation. I have explained the plan over and over. Do not waste my time arguing about things that you refuse to comprehend.



So what you are saying is that I am wrong simply because you thing man has free will? The doctrine of free will is


I think that verse is pretty clear... I see it was a mistake to think that you would be willing to have a decent conversation. May God open your ears and your heart.

Don't be so childish in your replies, son. No one knows it all __ not even me.

 

[Ardima]

quote from ardima " So what you are saying is that I am wrong simply because you thing man has free will? The doctrine of free will is"

you ignore much of scripture in order to affirm your calvin gospel.

your whole angle is looking through calvin eyes.

My whole angle is affirming the sovereignty of God. Calvinism views a god who will not save all men (which is His will) because of election. Arminianism views a god who cannot save all men because of free will. I view a God who not only wills all men yo be saved but will also perform His will.

adam was given not (promised) dominion over the earth.
within the command to subdue came the ability and dominion.

I do not see why you brought this up when it is exactly what I said...

the earth does not long for the manifestation of the sons of God for no reason.

Amen!

you also quote "Humans understand things by contrast. You only know what "hot" is because we have experienced "cold." This applies to every part of creation. We only understand the Love of God because we have experienced condemnation"

that quote is pure speculation. kinda like we only conscious thought because at one time we once had no thoughts. lol

We only have concious thoughts because we exist. We cannot claim that we do not think without confirming that we do. Your analogy is way off base.

or
we only understand self awareness because we at one time were unaware.
lol

Same thing here, you overexagerate the concept in order to make a mockery of it. Selfawareness isnt something you understand it is something you have.

we only understand pain is bad because we can experience pleasure.
lol

You have that backwards. We only know what pleasure is because we have experienced the lack of pleasure which we call "pain".

we only understand life because at one time we did not exist and in that non existence we understood what that non existence meant.

This one is just rediculous. Many things exist without life. Even you will exist when the life you have is gone. We can only know life and appreciate because we experience the lack of life which we call death.

you promote an occultic yin/yang goobley gock. balance and contrast baaahhh occult yin yang

no good without evil LOL

God needs an evil counterpart to exist lol
this contrast theory is really silly

Evil doesnt exist, neither does cold, etc. Those are just terms we use to discribe the lack of the positive. All you do is make yourself look uneducated...