Why I love divorce

Angel4Truth

Angel4Truth

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aikido7 said:
Where on earth do you get the theology of giving thanks for food makes it clean?
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1 Timothy 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
 
serpentdove

serpentdove

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Interplanner said:
So find something in Mt 19, ROm 7, I Cor 7, Heb 13 inconsistent with Prager.
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Prager is not a believer. :plain: His religion is work based (Jud 11 :burnlib:) not faith based (Eph 2:8-9). You won't be surprised to learn that he is a divorced person (Eph 5:25). :plain:
 
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H

HisServant

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aikido7 said:
I DID. You gave it already.

We need to show evidence for our claims with actual quotations from scripture and other ancient manuscripts. We just cannot give out some proof text without context and then confidently assert what it means without objective proof.

No one should be throwing out their personal theological conjectures. History is different than theology. Theology makes a meaning of historical events. For example, Jesus was crucified by Pilate. That is a historical FACT. Jesus died on the cross for humankind's sin--THAT is a theological conclusion from the facts.

All we have is the gospels themselves and some valuable contextual evidence from other ancient writings at the time. Scholars and serious readers have to admit that.

You have dismissed this literal evidence of mine as "heresay" without any proof or example whatsoever.

It looks to me like you have either been backed into a corner and don't want to admit it or you have no idea what "rightly dividing" the Bible and other ancient manuscripts entails. Or maybe even both.
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Rightly dividing is a term I absolutely hate because it has been used for so much evil.. and is still the cause of so much evil in the world.

Anyhow, it is obvious from the early writings that even the early Christians were not as certain about divorce as a few people are on this site.

I think the removal of the verses from the context of Jesus day is one of the main causes of people not wanting to actually research the 'why' of Jesus words. They just take what looks like a plain reading and say 'that's it'.

Then you have the even crazier people that believe in KJV-Onlyism which further removes the context and culture from the interpretation... afterall, to them the english words are perfectly translated and a study of the context is meaningless to them.

Then there is the issue that the verses that are used are Jesus directly speaking to non-christian Jews that were bound to their understanding of the Levitical law.. and he responded to them. We are not bound to the levitical law so is Christs response to those who were applicable to Christians?.. Personally, I do not think so because that would tie us to the Old Covenant law and we would be judged as Jews instead of Christians.

Anyhow, if you know your history of ancient Christianity, you would know that negative affects of the ascetics and stoics on a lot of their writings. Non-Christian Greek reasoning permeated and polluted the body very on.

Anyhow, I have not seen a single post in this thread that has actually taken a serious in-depth analysis from a 1st century point of view. I also feel that most people's simple translation of these verses are based upon what they want.. not what Christ wanted. There is a sizable group within Christianity that measure their comfort and righteousness solely on what they believe are Christian social norms.

Anyhow, that is really I all I have to say on this subject... the vast majority of so called Christians are unknowingly working for the evil one and they do not know it.
 
Shasta

Shasta

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God's Truth said:
Lol...Jesus does not say that.

Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
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I agree, and Jesus was not teaching "the law" here. He ignored their implicit demand to side with either the Rabbinical school of Shammai or Hillel in how He understood God's will for marriage. Instead He said, "it was not so from the beginning." He looked to a time before the law to the Creator who designed man. The institution of marriage was God's invention not man's and not any court no matter how "supreme" it may think itself to be. Divorce was made legal only to keep (particularly women) from being abandoned without legal rights and recourse.

When Paul wrote on the subject, he first acknowledged Jesus view of marriage calling it a "command." Then he added a provisio of his own which did not in any way undermine Jesus' original teaching.

10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband

11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
(1 Corinthians 7:10)

If peace was not possible a married couple could live separately but they would have to remain celibate. The only other alternative was reconciliation.

Personally I hate divorce. My mother has been divorced four times but married six (figure that out) nevertheless she got her life straightened out and is now married to a godly man. My father has been married four times. It seems our amoral culture has convinced Christians that divorce is not so bad, or, that it is better than staying married and unhappy. The maxim is "After all, doesn't God want me to be happy?" Well, the whole world wants to be happy. The Devil wants to be happy and one thing that makes him happy is divorce.

Divorce is devastating to adults and especially to children which is why the Father hates it. We Christians, to be in the image of God must come to see it the same way as He does.
 
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Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
HisServant said:
Rightly dividing is a term I absolutely hate because it has been used for so much evil.. and is still the cause of so much evil in the world.

Anyhow, it is obvious from the early writings that even the early Christians were not as certain about divorce as a few people are on this site.

I think the removal of the verses from the context of Jesus day is one of the main causes of people not wanting to actually research the 'why' of Jesus words. They just take what looks like a plain reading and say 'that's it'.

Then you have the even crazier people that believe in KJV-Onlyism which further removes the context and culture from the interpretation... afterall, to them the english words are perfectly translated and a study of the context is meaningless to them.

Then there is the issue that the verses that are used are Jesus directly speaking to non-christian Jews that were bound to their understanding of the Levitical law.. and he responded to them. We are not bound to the levitical law so is Christs response to those who were applicable to Christians?.. Personally, I do not think so because that would tie us to the Old Covenant law and we would be judged as Jews instead of Christians.

Anyhow, if you know your history of ancient Christianity, you would know that negative affects of the ascetics and stoics on a lot of their writings. Non-Christian Greek reasoning permeated and polluted the body very on.

Anyhow, I have not seen a single post in this thread that has actually taken a serious in-depth analysis from a 1st century point of view. I also feel that most people's simple translation of these verses are based upon what they want.. not what Christ wanted. There is a sizable group within Christianity that measure their comfort and righteousness solely on what they believe are Christian social norms.

Anyhow, that is really I all I have to say on this subject... the vast majority of so called Christians are unknowingly working for the evil one and they do not know it.
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Jesus view of marriage, as I read it, is based on a "unity principle" ("the two becoming one") which refers to sexual intercourse. When two people marry and have sexual intercourse they become ONE. This unity remains intact even when they do not get along, even, in fact, when they separate or divorce. Because God still sees them as "one" with their divorced spouse, IF they marry and establish a new "unity" with a new spouse they have in the act of intercourse broken the older unity and, in effect, are guilty of adultery. It therefore follows that whoever marries them contributes to the dissolution of their previous unity and also commits adultery. Unless this simple principle is kept in mind Jesus teaching on marriage seems almost Talmudic in its complexity .

A lot of our misconceptions center around the modern concept that sex is something separate from the soul. It is, instead, an activity merely of the body rather like physical exercise. It is recreational, for personal pleasure and is naturally to be engaged in after any particularly successful date (if the media are to be believed). Our God does not see it that way, and in many ways some of our ancient forbears in the Faith saw it clearer than we do.

The Church Fathers had a hard time dealing with it, as do modern Pastors. However, they were less compromising than a lot of modern pastors (in my experience) who, in an effort to be compassionate will marry and ordain people who did not divorce for legitimate reasons (such as immorality) without even making inquiries. I have seen ministries ordain and send as their representatives people whom I happened to know were unrepentant adulterers. Of course, while those ministries probably knew their agent was divorced they may not have known the reasons. Would it have mattered to them? In most cases, I seriously doubt it.

Sometimes, though, the legal termination of a marriage is the only way to prevent violence to a spouse and/or the children. Marriage problems, separation, divorce and remarriage lead to animosity and even murder not to mention the cost in emotional damage. I often work with these families and see up close the effect it has.
 
H

HisServant

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The issue for me came down to which was the greater sin... and I believe I chose the best given the situation.

1.) Do I support the wife that turned her back on her family by paying her health insurance and $2000 a month for the rest of her life, thereby enabling her sinful behavior or do I turn it off.

2.) My church and lawyers told me that divorcing her (cutting off the source of her lifestyle) was the proper thing to do.

And I am totally prepared to be accountable for my actions.
 
H

HisServant

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Shasta said:
Jesus view of marriage, as I read it, is based on a "unity principle" ("the two becoming one") which refers to sexual intercourse. When two people marry and have sexual intercourse they become ONE. This unity remains intact even when they do not get along, even, in fact, when they separate or divorce. Because God still sees them as "one" with their divorced spouse, IF they marry and establish a new "unity" with a new spouse they have in the act of intercourse broken the older unity and, in effect, are guilty of adultery. It therefore follows that whoever marries them contributes to the dissolution of their previous unity and also commits adultery. Unless this simple principle is kept in mind Jesus teaching on marriage seems almost Talmudic in its complexity .

A lot of our misconceptions center around the modern concept that sex is something separate from the soul. It is, instead, an activity merely of the body rather like physical exercise. It is recreational, for personal pleasure and is naturally to be engaged in after any particularly successful date (if the media are to be believed). Our God does not see it that way, and in many ways some of our ancient forbears in the Faith saw it clearer than we do.

The Church Fathers had a hard time dealing with it, as do modern Pastors. However, they were less compromising than a lot of modern pastors (in my experience) who, in an effort to be compassionate will marry and ordain people who did not divorce for legitimate reasons (such as immorality) without even making inquiries. I have seen ministries ordain and send as their representatives people whom I happened to know were unrepentant adulterers. Of course, while those ministries probably knew their agent was divorced they may not have known the reasons. Would it have mattered to them? In most cases, I seriously doubt it.

Sometimes, though, the legal termination of a marriage is the only way to prevent violence to a spouse and/or the children. Marriage problems, separation, divorce and remarriage lead to animosity and even murder not to mention the cost in emotional damage. I often work with these families and see up close the effect it has.
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This tired argument.... Men were allowed multiple wives back then and most early christian men were polygamists.

Hence the requirement that an elder only have ONE wife. Every Jewish patriarch had multiple wives too. So the two become one is kind of a stupid example to use... and soul angle.. seriously?

Trying to apply your 21st century world view as the framework for interpreting what Jesus and the Apostles said back there is doomed to failure.

I assume you are a women.. correct?
 
PneumaPsucheSoma

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
HisServant said:
Rightly dividing is a term I absolutely hate because it has been used for so much evil.. and is still the cause of so much evil in the world.

Anyhow, it is obvious from the early writings that even the early Christians were not as certain about divorce as a few people are on this site.

I think the removal of the verses from the context of Jesus day is one of the main causes of people not wanting to actually research the 'why' of Jesus words. They just take what looks like a plain reading and say 'that's it'.

Then you have the even crazier people that believe in KJV-Onlyism which further removes the context and culture from the interpretation... afterall, to them the english words are perfectly translated and a study of the context is meaningless to them.

Then there is the issue that the verses that are used are Jesus directly speaking to non-christian Jews that were bound to their understanding of the Levitical law.. and he responded to them. We are not bound to the levitical law so is Christs response to those who were applicable to Christians?.. Personally, I do not think so because that would tie us to the Old Covenant law and we would be judged as Jews instead of Christians.

Anyhow, if you know your history of ancient Christianity, you would know that negative affects of the ascetics and stoics on a lot of their writings. Non-Christian Greek reasoning permeated and polluted the body very on.

Anyhow, I have not seen a single post in this thread that has actually taken a serious in-depth analysis from a 1st century point of view. I also feel that most people's simple translation of these verses are based upon what they want.. not what Christ wanted. There is a sizable group within Christianity that measure their comfort and righteousness solely on what they believe are Christian social norms.

Anyhow, that is really I all I have to say on this subject... the vast majority of so called Christians are unknowingly working for the evil one and they do not know it.
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I'm not sure why you continue to converse with them, especially after being open and vulnerable with very personal information.

Leave them to their ignorance and folly. Love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for it, which you seem to have the heart for doing by God's grace anyway.

Do NOT allow any hint of condemnation from the lies and accusations, especially from those who are ignorant to truth from a nominal gloss reading of the text to adhere to false tradition.

You have not put away a wife without a writ. Neither you nor she are made an adulterer/adulteress (though it appears she may be by act) from an incomplete divorce.

You are the husband of one wife. And you (and she) are espoused to your husband... Jesus Christ, the Righteous. Be Him to her and forget all the dead and false dogma of others' ignorance.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
HisServant said:
Its not a 'hard' teaching.... its an error in your teaching and you will be held accountable for it one day.

We are not in bondage based on our bad choices... and God does not support is in our bad choices.

Christ died to give us freedom from people like you who truly do not understand what Christ called us to do.



The above contradicts the bondage you preach... you are a millstone around people's necks and anyone that follows you will drown along with you...
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Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


Matthew 5:32 NASB
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.



Tell me, why is she an adulterer if HER HUSBAND DIVORCED HER?

Why is the person who marries her an adulterer?

You are going against God's Truth.
 
H

HisServant

New member
PneumaPsucheSoma-

Thanks for your support... these issues are extremely difficult and its really hard dealing with people that refuse to do their homework.
 
H

HisServant

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God's Truth said:
Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


Matthew 5:32 NASB
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.



Tell me, why is she an adulterer if HER HUSBAND DIVORCED HER?

Why is the person who marries her an adulterer?

You are going against God's Truth.
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Because marriage and divorce was very different back them... its too bad you refuse to acknowledge that.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
HisServant said:
Husbands are told to love... wives are told to submit. So they are not interchangable.

What do you do if you have a wife that is intent on doing her own thing and submit to the authority of her husband... and you have had both sets of parents and the church involved in it for many a year... yet she refuses to submit?

Basically she has proven herself to be a non-christian and you should not be unequally yoked.
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You live as a single eunuch.


Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
 
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