Why Don't the Liberals Want a Wall?

[ok doser]

Barbarian observes:
Maybe the Indians should have put up a wall?

How'd that work out for the Chinese?

Yep. Wasn't even a speed bump. Today, in China, there are many millions of Mongols and Manchus, who found the wall to be no obstacle at all, and poured through, each conquering China in turn.



Total length 87 miles



It's a fence. Like the ones we have on the border.

And more effective because you can see what's going on, on the back of it. Wall wouldn't work.



Couple of hundred yards, maybe.

Ineffective walls:
Great Wall of China
13,000 miles

Maginot line
900 miles

Trump's wall
Maybe 900 miles, depending on Trump's story du jour.

You've rather handily undermined your own argument.

What is it that you think is "my argument"?


For example, do you think i was arguing that the mexicans will attack trump's wall with rail mounted big bertha artillery?

 

[Eeset]

What is it that you think is "my argument"?


For example, do you think i was arguing that the mexicans will attack trump's wall with rail mounted big bertha artillery?

Sounds about right.

 

[ok doser]

Sounds about right.

Those dirty mexicans! :sozo2:

 

[Town Heretic]

If the liberals in the Congress had not fought a border wall from the beginning it could be well on its way to be completed by now.

How'd they manage that? Haven't Republicans had both houses of Congress since before Obama left office?

In fact, the liberals care nothing about fixing the problem because during Obama's first term they had the votes to fix it anyway which they wanted and they did nothing. Why? Because the issue is a valuable political tool for their game of "identity" politics.

Or maybe the party was too divided and couldn't summon a majority that had a single vision for addressing it.

Obama had a majority for the first two years. Then it was split for the next four and then it was the Republicans from that point forward. So you could be legitimately outraged, if you feel you have to be, by the failure of that administration to solve the problem in the two year window it had the power to enact most of what it wanted. Or you could recognize that the Republicans have had the same time to do something and haven't managed it and share the wealth of that condemnation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How'd they manage that? Haven't Republicans had both houses of Congress since before Obama left office?

To pass a bill which Trump can sign 60 votes are necessary in the Senate. And Trump offered the Dems a good compromise involving DACA but the Dems aren't interested in solving the problem because they are totally dependent on Identity Politics.

Obama had a majority for the first two years.

They not only had the majority but they had the 60 votes so they could have passed any bill which they wanted. But they are dependent on their Identity Politics--and cheap labor!

An immigration bill will never get enacted unless the Republicans can somehow find a way to get 60 votes. And the Dems like it that way!

 

[The Barbarian]

What is it that you think is "my argument"?

That Trump's vanity wall would actually be effective.

For example, do you think i was arguing that the mexicans will attack trump's wall with rail mounted big bertha artillery?

If you have to make up stories to argue against instead of dealing with the subject at hand, isn't that a pretty good clue that you're not doing well? Wrong war, and wrong agency, too.

 

[The Barbarian]

Sod writes:

For example, do you think i was arguing that the mexicans will attack trump's wall with rail mounted big bertha artillery?

Sounds about right.

"Big Bertha" was the nickname of the howitzers used in WWI against French forts by German forces. Sod doesn't realize that the Maginot line failed for the same reason that Trump's wall would fail. The Germans just went around it through Belgium, just as illegal immigrants are largely coming in from Asia, bypassing the Rio Grande entirely.

Wasn't rail-mounted, of course. He's confused the howitzer named "Big Bertha"

by the Krupp factory, with rail mounted cannon, known as "Paris Guns."

 

[ok doser]

... illegal immigrants are largely coming in from Asia, bypassing the Rio Grande entirely.

wait - all these central americans and Mexicans that are being shown on the news every night are really coming in from asia? :noway:

 

[The Barbarian]

wait - all these central americans and Mexicans that are being shown on the news every night are really coming in from asia? :noway:

Turns out that reality has moved on. The biggest increase in illegal immigration is from Asia, coming into the West Coast.

Asians Now Outpace Mexicans In Terms of Undocumented Growth

Chinese, South Koreans, and Indians among the fastest-growing segments of undocumented immigrants.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...icans-in-terms-of-undocumented-growth/432603/

Hence the apt comparison to France's Maginot Line. Just as France was preparing to fight the last war, instead of the coming one, Trump is focused on the illegal immigration that's declining, while leaving us wide open to that which is now growing.

 

[ok doser]

Turns out that reality has moved on.

yes, it's clearly given up on you


nice to see you admit it :thumb:

 

[ok doser]

...Trump's ... wall would actually be effective.

yes, it would :thumb:



not sure why some retards here insist that a wall isn't effective at keeping people on one side, especially when they're shown examples of walls that are effective at keeping people on one side


perhaps it's because they're retarded

 

[Clete]

Actually, a lot of the land is privately owned which is a major problem, particularly in Texas. Building Trump's wall will require one of the largest use of eminent domain in history. There is also the problem that we have treaty obligations that forbid building any barrier inside the floodplains of the Rio Grande which means a wall along there will have to be well inside the US border cutting off Texas farmers and landowners from a major watershed, ceding the Rio Grand to Mexico. In a part of the country where wars have been fought over water rights that will go over well.

All that may well be but it isn't relevant to the point I was making.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Sod points out that prison walls and the short Berlin wall were effective)

Barbarian explains:

Ineffective walls:
Great Wall of China
13,000 miles

Maginot line
900 miles

Trump's wall
Maybe 900 miles, depending on Trump's story du jour.

It would appear that you've rather handily undermined your own argument.

yes, it would...

not sure why some retards here insist that a wall isn't effective at keeping people on one side,

Ask the Chinese. Biggest and best wall in the world. Didn't work. The entire empire was conquered twice by Mongols and Manchus, who weren't in the least hampered by the wall.

especially when they're shown examples of walls that are effective at keeping people on one side

As you learned, walls longer than a few miles aren't so good at keeping people on one side. As you also learned, the Gaza "wall" is actually a fence. Why? Because fences work better; you can see what's on the other side.

Why would anyone think that a wall hundreds of miles long would work this time, when they've always failed before?

perhaps it's because they're retarded

Well, some of them, perhaps.

 

[ok doser]

(barbie admits that short walls are effective)

At what length does a wall become ineffective?

 

[The Barbarian]

At what length does a wall become ineffective?

Let's see...
Berlin wall (admittedly with sniper towers, lighting, barbed wire, etc.) was pretty effective, and went 87 miles.

Prison walls of maybe several hundred yards, again with lots of guard towers, barbed wire, etc. are pretty effective.

The Maginot Line at 800 or so miles, and the Great wall of China (also with lots of guard towers and forts) were completely ineffective.

The Gaza Fence, with lots of guards and observation towers (but no wall)works better than any of them.

Which would be more like Trump's wall?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Maybe the Indians should have put up a wall?

How'd that work out for the Chinese?

Yep. Wasn't even a speed bump. Today, in China, there are many millions of Mongols and Manchus, who found the wall to be no obstacle at all, and poured through, each conquering China in turn.

So what solution do you suggest?

 

[ok doser]

The Maginot Line

Not a wall

Trump's wall would be a cross between berlin and gaza, a physical barrier with lots of electronic monitoring and rapid border patrol response

Now, at what length does that become ineffective?

 

[ok doser]

So what solution do you suggest?

You should know, jerry, that barbie is severely mischaracterizing the effectiveness of the great wall of china

 

[The Barbarian]

You should know, jerry, that barbie is severely mischaracterizing the effectiveness of the great wall of china

Yeah, after they got it finished, they were only conquered twice. Three times, if you count the European overthrow of Chinese imperial authority in the 1800s.

 

[The Barbarian]

Not a wall

Yep. Walls reinforced with forts and gun emplacements. Much bigger and grander than Trump's wall. It failed. Like other long walls, it didn't work.

Trump's wall would be a cross between berlin and gaza,

As you might have realized, walls are more effective at keeping people in, than at keeping people out. But as you now realize, Gaza's fence (which is what we have mostly on the border) works better than a wall.

a physical barrier with lots of electronic monitoring and rapid border patrol response

We already have that. Almost all of the border has physical barriers with electronic monitoring and rapid border patrol response.

Border Patrol already employs a "digital wall" composed of about 8,000 cameras, which monitor the southern fence and ports of entry. Its resources also include more than 11,000 underground senors, 107 aircraft, eight drones, 175 mobile surveillance units and 84 boats.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/700-miles-fencing-us-mexico-border-exist/story?id=45045054

How's that working?

Now, at what length does that become ineffective?

Over a few hundred miles, based on our experience.