Cross Reference
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. . . . . the time of great persecution soon coming upon them we presently witness in the world as being but a prelude to the big event?
ECT Why don't Christians seem to be concerned about . .
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Buzzword
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Several reasons, potentially:
1) They erroneously believe it's already happening, having been indoctrinated to hold an irrational victim complex and treat nonestablishment as persecution.
2) They read the "great persecution" as a historical event, referring only to the massacre of thousands of Christians by the Roman Empire.
3) We are following Paul's admonition to "not be anxious about anything," especially because we rely on Christ to use us to spread His love, and thus need fear no man's judgment.
1) They erroneously believe it's already happening, having been indoctrinated to hold an irrational victim complex and treat nonestablishment as persecution.
2) They read the "great persecution" as a historical event, referring only to the massacre of thousands of Christians by the Roman Empire.
3) We are following Paul's admonition to "not be anxious about anything," especially because we rely on Christ to use us to spread His love, and thus need fear no man's judgment.
Cross Reference
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I know of no one that is even the slightest bit alarmed about these being the end days and whether or not they are prepared for what is coming down the road.
revpete
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I take it that you mean Western, comfortable Christians. If you do than that's the answer
Pete
elohiym
Well-known member
Why do you claim their belief is erroneous?
elohiym
Well-known member
Where are you getting this idea of a "great persecution" to come? Scriptures, please.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
2 reasons :
1. In North America we are so abundantly blessed with natural provision that we are fat and lazy (spiritually). Of course, that is a broad generalization but when judgment begins at the House of the Lord, it probably won't leave many standing. We (again, as a people) think so many things are our "right" that if any of them are taken from us, we believe that whoever did it is a suspected Antichrist - forgetting that our experience is the exception to most of history. The churches that teach and believe that "In this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world" will be the best prepared for any serious trial.
2. And why should it be a concern when many (most?) Christians believe they aren't even going to be here for serious persecution or tribulation?
I think Corrie Ten Boom's bear repeating here...
Corrie Ten Boom said:
{From a 1974 letter}
And of course, it has gone beyond Africa and China now...
You likely can't see this, but I know lots of people who are alarmed about it, many for decades.
Cross Reference
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Do a cursory read Rev 12 and 13 and see what you come up with?
Be honest, leave aside whatever you have been taught to believe from commentaries or other denominational religious doctrine. Let it say what it says.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
It's troubling, but I've spent my life learning the end times would be as the days of Noah. No matter where anybody believes we are, it's always been clear the world will get worse, not better. I don't find something alarming scripture said would be, find it disgusting, pray for the persecuted and speak out where able, but alarming, the same scripture that tells us to trust the Lord and be anxious over nothing? In the same way, I've never understood this Christian view you get from many that we've just got to put a stop to RFID chips, that we've got to fight this New World Order they talk about, do things to prevent the end times. If that's, in fact, where it's going, into the apocalypse, which is on God's time, just what are you going to do about it? Thwart God?
HisServant
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Because MOST Christians around the world do not believe your eschatology....
And there is real work to be done by Christians instead of the fear and loathing that your eschatology promotes.
Cross Reference
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Buzzword
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Anyone who believes that a lack of government enforcement of their personal religion equals persecution of them is deluded at best, dangerously so at worst.
As Nikolai pointed out, these are the people who are free to worship and speak as they see fit, yet when the government protects the rights of others to worship and speak differently, they claim to be victims of persecution.
Though the church people who TRULY sicken me are those who DELIGHT in an escalation of suffering and atrocity across the world, having been convinced that such escalation means the return of Christ is faster-approaching.
This psychotic group has spawned many, many pieces of scum who advocate and attempt DELIBERATELY turning the world into a hellhole to try and push their deluded idea of God's agenda along faster.
An eschatology which pushes the idea that the world is on a downward spiral is the opposite of the Kingdom Christ preached.
The Spirit moves in the world, works THROUGH human history not in spite of it, and moves us TOWARD a better relationship with God, each other, and God's created universe, not against.
We are called to rely upon the Spirit and be renewed, and let His light so shine before men.
Not huddle in bunkers mumbling about the "tribulation" or "antichrist" or whichever current events some idiot said match up to the seven seals/trumpets/bowls/whatever.
Cross Reference
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And with that, man's willingness to righteousness is the key to the success of the Spirit? I agree.
"If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land. But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 1:19-20 (KJV)
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Just some clarification on my view since my post is being (indirectly) quoted.
This is true, but I do believe that true believers are to expect persecution. Jesus promised it. The question you seem to be addressing is of those who have a persecution complex. That approach to Jesus' words is not the same as accepting persecution (when it comes) as part of following the Lord.
Not quite what I was after in this case. In fact, my point was more that we have gotten so used to freedom that we demand rights that even the Founding Father's recognized only came from God (which was why they didn't want government to be meddling in them). But there is also the issue of morality - which inevitably has to be based on some sort of broader moral foundation. In the case of the United States, it was (per the founding documents) broadly Christian. So when it comes to certain things that Christians view as wrong and immoral, it is a departure from the founding principles for people to demand the right to be allowed to do so.
My only point there is that there needs to be a distinction between real persecution and moral (and legal) treason on the part of the government. One does not (necessarily) equal the other.
But further (and more what I was trying to address) is the fact that we have started to think freedom from persecution is a right we can demand to be exempt from as given by God! Clearly, that is not a God-given right even though the Pilgrims came to this land to seek a place where they would worship free from persecution. That doesn't mean they whined and cried when they were persecuted.
I don't know that I've met anyone who actually delights in an escalation of persecution. There are many who are not willing to stop it because they know it means there is greater spiritual activity and that Christ's return is nearing - but I would never say anyone actually delights in the increase of persecution (unless they said so themselves). The problem there is assigning motive. Because one thing means the other, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person actually desires both - just that the one must come as a prerequisite to the other. Anyone who tries to increase ungodliness in order to hasten the Lord's return doesn't know scripture (and possibly even the Lord):
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Peter 3:11-12
While I certainly agree with the idea we aren't to be huddling in bunkers but being faithful in what we have been given, I would say things will progressively (maybe quickly) get worse. At least from an external perspective. It only means that there is a growing division between sheep and goats, the false and the true, the children of light and the children of darkness. In the end, Satan's being unbound means that God will allow unrestrained evil to have its time in the spotlight - after which it will be utterly judged. We - as you have said - simply need to be faithful to what we have been called to. If we are, we will be amazed at the Lord's provision.
This is true, but I do believe that true believers are to expect persecution. Jesus promised it. The question you seem to be addressing is of those who have a persecution complex. That approach to Jesus' words is not the same as accepting persecution (when it comes) as part of following the Lord.
Not quite what I was after in this case. In fact, my point was more that we have gotten so used to freedom that we demand rights that even the Founding Father's recognized only came from God (which was why they didn't want government to be meddling in them). But there is also the issue of morality - which inevitably has to be based on some sort of broader moral foundation. In the case of the United States, it was (per the founding documents) broadly Christian. So when it comes to certain things that Christians view as wrong and immoral, it is a departure from the founding principles for people to demand the right to be allowed to do so.
My only point there is that there needs to be a distinction between real persecution and moral (and legal) treason on the part of the government. One does not (necessarily) equal the other.
But further (and more what I was trying to address) is the fact that we have started to think freedom from persecution is a right we can demand to be exempt from as given by God! Clearly, that is not a God-given right even though the Pilgrims came to this land to seek a place where they would worship free from persecution. That doesn't mean they whined and cried when they were persecuted.
I don't know that I've met anyone who actually delights in an escalation of persecution. There are many who are not willing to stop it because they know it means there is greater spiritual activity and that Christ's return is nearing - but I would never say anyone actually delights in the increase of persecution (unless they said so themselves). The problem there is assigning motive. Because one thing means the other, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person actually desires both - just that the one must come as a prerequisite to the other. Anyone who tries to increase ungodliness in order to hasten the Lord's return doesn't know scripture (and possibly even the Lord):
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Peter 3:11-12
While I certainly agree with the idea we aren't to be huddling in bunkers but being faithful in what we have been given, I would say things will progressively (maybe quickly) get worse. At least from an external perspective. It only means that there is a growing division between sheep and goats, the false and the true, the children of light and the children of darkness. In the end, Satan's being unbound means that God will allow unrestrained evil to have its time in the spotlight - after which it will be utterly judged. We - as you have said - simply need to be faithful to what we have been called to. If we are, we will be amazed at the Lord's provision.
Cross Reference
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Getting used to freedom is the result of worshipping God.
HisServant
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I've been around enough dispy's to know its the truth.
Cross Reference
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I am not a "dispy". Hence, inquiry.
Talking about Corrie ten Boom, how quickly peaceful Christian Holland changed, just a few short months blew it all away.