Why Do We Believe Paul?

[Prizebeatz1]

Was Jesus symbolically born ?

Did Jesus symbolically live for 33 years without sin?

Was Jesus symbolically crucified ?

Was Jesus symbolically in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights ?

Did Jesus symbolically resurrect from the dead ?

Was Jesus symbolically seen by the Apostles and eventually by over 500 others ?

The many whose sins are remitted are those who are born again by the Spirit of God.

Jesus blood shed for the remission of sin can only be interpreted symbolically if one is without the Spirit of God residing within them to teach them TRUTH.

Truths based in scripture remain true and philosophizing of those truths usually removes the truth from those truths.

Jesus shedding His blood can only be interpreted ONE way and that is that HE died for our sins just like HE taught His disciples.



Jesus dying for our sins is the "central theme " of ALL scripture.

Nope, the 4 Gospels teach clearly that Jesus shed His blood and died for our sins. If all we had of scripture was the 4 Gospels we ( those who have the Spirit of God living within them ) would KNOW and understand this central theme of Jesus' sacrificing for the sins of those that would place their faith in Him.

If we just read the just the 4 Gospels we ( those who have the Spirit of God ) would have a full understanding of Jesus sacrifice as payment for sin.

I suggest you get yourself out of the way of what you think scripture should say ,and let the scripture be understood as they are written without your input/output.

Stop the press for a moment. You're just as guilty as me with what you think scripture should say. Only you got your opinion from someone else so don't even go there. The literal interpretation dismisses the importance of the soul. What do you have that is more important than the source of infinite and eternal self-worth? Tell me right now. If you think you can justify living without true self-worth then you have been duped by the enemy. Lack of self-worth is a social problem and there is nothing that is going to fix it except the soul.

Also consider this. Doesn't the remission of sins imply judgment? Isn't judgment the downfall of mankind? Did Jesus succumb to this same downfall? Doesn't John 5:22 say "...the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son...?" If the Father and Son are one then the Son doesn't judge either. Why would he need to die for our sins if he doesn't judge us? It's preposterous.

Watch the slickness of the enemy as it unconsciously gets us to bite the forbidden fruit. It is depicted as a serpent for a reason. It is so unconscious that we are hardly aware of it. Yet it is the downfall of mankind. Adam and Eve bit the fruit and passed it down to us and we are still biting it. When will we quit? We can sit here and argue all day about the meaning of the dying for our sins and that is only going to further distract us from the higher meaning of the story of Jesus. We are one with God because of the soul. People harden their hearts against the soul because it challenges them to look deeper. If we hold to the literal translation then we are automatically buying into subjecting ourselves to judgement. In which case we've missed the moral of the story of the Garden and need to go back to basics.

 

[dodge]

Prizebeatz1;4835572]Stop the press for a moment. You're just as guilty as me with what you think scripture should say. Only you got your opinion from someone else so don't even go there.

YOU are not letting the scriptures say what they are saying YOU are putting your own spin on the scriptures, and you are wrong.

The literal interpretation dismisses the importance of the soul.

Wrong again !

Jas 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

What do you have that is more important than the source of infinite and eternal self-worth?

Forgiveness through Christ Jesus is the long answer, and "Jesus" is the short answer.

I am persuaded ( convinced ) that He ( God ) is able ( Sovereign ) to keep that ( My eternal soul ) which I have committed unto Him ( my eternity ) against that day( Judgement day ).

Tell me right now. If you think you can justify living without true self-worth then you have been duped by the enemy. Lack of self-worth is a social problem and there is nothing that is going to fix it except the soul.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. The only worth worth having is forgiveness in Jesus.

Self worth is like trying to carry water in a colander.

Also consider this. Doesn't the remission of sins imply judgment?

Wrong again:

Remission means REMOVAL of the penalty of sin.

Isn't judgment the downfall of mankind?

Wrong again:

Judgement is earned by humanity for disobeying God.

Did Jesus succumb to this same downfall?

NO:

For HE who knew no sin became sin for us that we might receive the righteousness in Christ Jesus.

Doesn't John 5:22 say "...the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son...?"

yES, BUT YOU HAVE NO CLUE OR UNDERSTANDING of what that means so read on.

If the Father and Son are one then the Son doesn't judge either.

Jesus also says I judge no man the words that I have spoken they will judge you.

Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Watch the slickness of the enemy as he unconsciously gets us to bite the forbidden fruit. It is so unconscious that we are hardly aware of it. Yet it is the downfall of mankind.

The down fall of any man is sinning against God.

Adam and Eve bit the fruit and passed it down to us and we are still biting it.

Adam and Eve passed no fruit they ate it. What they did pass down was our fallen nature ; another words, we are born with a sin nature.

When will we quit?

When we are transformed and changed into the image of Christ.

We can sit here and argue all day about the meaning of the dying for our sins and that is only going to further distract us from the higher meaning of the story of Jesus.

If you never accept that Jesus died for your sins and place your faith in His finished work you will not become a child of God.

We are one with God because of the soul. People harden their hearts against the soul because it challenges them to look deeper.

Philosophy will NEVER draw you closer to God it will drive you far far away from God. Your opinion nor philosophy does not negate the TRUTH of God.

If we hold to the literal translation then we are automatically buying into subjecting ourselves to judgement.

Wrong again:

If you hold to the literal translation you are BELIEVING that God loves you and that Jesus died to pay for your sins.

In which case we've missed the moral of the story of the Garden and need to go back to basics.

The moral of the story is that they , Adam and Eve, disobeyed God and fell from the lofty position they held, but God in His love for them provided a way and a covering and forgave them.

The moral for today is that if repent of your known sin, humble yourself before God ,and admit that you have sinned against Him,ask for His forgiveness, and place your faith in the "finished work of Jesus" , as the payment for YOUR sin, you will become a child of God.

 

[marhig]

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

That shows us that we are to obey the commandments of God and that it's not all done for us by Jesus.

Adam disobeyed God and he was cast out and he was denied the right to eat off the tree of life

And now we have to obey Gods commandments to have the right to eat off the tree of life again.

And Jesus came as a perfect example for us to follow. Through suffering he learned obedience, and the more we partake in the sufferings of Christ the more obedient to God we become and the stronger we become in the spirit.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

YOU are not letting the scriptures say what they are saying YOU are putting your own spin on the scriptures, and you are wrong.




Wrong again !

Jas 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



Forgiveness through Christ Jesus is the long answer, and Jesus is the short answer.





Self worth is like trying to carry water in a colander.




Wrong again:

Remission means REMOVAL of the penalty of sin.



Wrong again:

Judgement is earned by humanity for disobeying God.



NO:

For HE who knew no sin became sin for us that we might receive the righteousness in Christ Jesus.




Jesus also says I judge no man the words that I have spoken they will judge you.





Jesus also says I judge no man the words that I have spoken they will judge you.



The down fall of any man is sinning against God.




Adam and Eve passed no fruit they ate it. What they did pass down was our fallen nature ; another words, we are born with a sin nature.

When we are transformed and changed into the image of Christ.



When we are transformed and changed into the image of Christ.



If you never accept that Jesus died for your sins and place your faith in His finished work you will not become a child of God.



Philosophy will NEVER draw you closer to God it will drive you far far away from God. Your opinion nor philosophy does not negate the TRUTH of God.



Wrong again:

If you hold to the literal translation you are BELIEVING that God loves you and that Jesus died to pay for your sins.


In which case we've missed the moral of the story of the Garden and need to go back to basics.


The moral of the story is that they , Adam and Eve, disobeyed God and fell from the lofty position they held, but God in His love for them provided a way and a covering and forgave them.

The only problem is you can't do without those beliefs for one moment. You hold onto them because you think you are worthless without them. That is unconscious lack of self-worth staring you right in the face but you'd be too proud to admit it.

 

[dodge]

The only problem is you can't do without those beliefs for one moment. You hold onto them because you think you are worthless without them. That is unconscious lack of self-worth staring you right in the face but you'd be too proud to admit it.

Wrong again:

The truths of forgiveness ( through Jesus dying as payment for MY sins ) is what gives a person worth, and without those truths YOU are headed for an eternal hell. Not by opinion but God's decrees.


Yes ,it takes a whole lot of pride to admit that I have sinned against a Holy God and asked for His forgiveness and placed my faith in the finished work of Jesus for MY sins.

You have confused humility with pride.

 

[Lilstu]

Acts 9:22-25 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 But Saul [Paul] kept increasing in strength and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ.
23 When many days had elapsed, the Jews plotted together to do away with him, 24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were also watching the gates day and night so that they might put him to death; 25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a large basket.

2 Corinthians 11:32-33 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me, 33 and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.

Does it bother anyone that Paul tells this story two ways?

 

[marhig]

Yes , actually He did:

Mat 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Although I agree with you on many things, I see this differently.

l believe he's talking about us taking in all of his life that he's poured out and then us living it out and denying sin in our lives and following Jesus. And once we hear the word of God and believe in Jesus having faith we are forgiven of our past sins but then we are to strive to turn from sin.

Jesus denied his flesh and resisted sin overcoming Satan and this world, to bare witness to the truth, bringing us the word of God to save us once we believe and have faith.

1 Corinthians 11

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also*he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Eating and drinking unworthily is believing in God taking Christ in, and not living it out and obeying him. This makes us weak and sickly. If we eat his flesh and drink his blood, then we will show the lords death to he comes. Which is death to the flesh to and being alive in God.

If we take the life of Christ in, and we are truly washed in his blood, which is cleansed by his life, then we will be living it out and denying sin and Christ will be seen in us

Look at this

Hebrews 12

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin...

And look at the NIV version

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

If we have resist to the point of shedding our blood, does that mean we have to die on a cross?

Here they are being told that they have not yet resisted unto blood, meaning they are not living it out and striving to deny their sins.

The blood isn't natural blood, just like the seed isn't a natural seed and the water means the word of God, the blood is the life that Christ poured out, denying his will to do Gods will, and through his life we are saved.

John 18

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus didn't come to this world to die on the cross to save us. He came into this world to bare witness to the truth and when we are of the truth we hear his voice and believe in him, then through faith and by the grace of God we are saved.

 

[Lilstu]

One of the most inspirational passages in the Bible can be found in Deuteronomy chapter 30.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

The message of this passage is that the Law [Torah] is not too difficult to obey.

But this message does not “fit” with Paul’s anti-Law theology. So look at how Paul “reinvents” the message of Deuteronomy 30 to fit his heretical theology.
Romans 10:6-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;



PS I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice [Deut 30:19-20]

 

[marhig]

One of the most inspirational passages in the Bible can be found in Deuteronomy chapter 30.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

The message of this passage is that the Law [Torah] is not too difficult to obey.

But this message does not “fit” with Paul’s anti-Law theology. So look at how Paul “reinvents” the message of Deuteronomy 30 to fit his heretical theology.
Romans 10:6-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;



PS I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice [Deut 30:19-20]

I don't think Paul was anti law

Romans 3

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Right Divider]

According to Paul.

You are quite the religious zealot, just like the leaders of Israel in Jesus' day.

2Pet 3:15-16 (KJV)​

(3:15) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (3:16) As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. ​

It sounds like you're one of the unlearned and unstable. Good work.

 

[Lilstu]

I don't think Paul was anti law

Romans 3

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do I assume you observe the Law?

 

[Lilstu]

You are quite the religious zealot, just like the leaders of Israel in Jesus' day.

2Pet 3:15-16 (KJV)​

(3:15) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (3:16) As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. ​

It sounds like you're one of the unlearned and unstable. Good work.

I wouldn't put my faith in 2Peter....a book that many scholars say is spurious.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I wouldn't put my faith in 2Peter....a book that many scholars say is spurious.

Oh, so everybody ought to listen to your expertise in this area? What other books in the Bible would you have us ignore?

 

[Right Divider]

I wouldn't put my faith in 2Peter....a book that many scholars say is spurious.

So now you're deciding what is scripture or not? You've got a lot of nerve poking your nose into a Christian site and preaching your garbage.

Don't forget that the scholars of Israel nailed Jesus to a cross.

 

[Lilstu]

James said to “abstain from things sacrificed to idols “

Acts 15:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
28"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

But Paul said….
Romans 14:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean

1 Corinthians 8:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

1 Corinthians 10:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)
25Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake;
26FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.
27If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake.

Paul thought it was OK to eat food sacrificed to idols.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I don't really think "Lilstu" will be around here too long? Sounds like some kind of Cultist with an agenda.

 

[patrick jane]

James said to “abstain from things sacrificed to idols “

Acts 15:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
28"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

But Paul said….
Romans 14:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean

1 Corinthians 8:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

1 Corinthians 10:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)
25Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake;
26FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.
27If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake.

Paul thought it was OK to eat food sacrificed to idols.

Liar

 

[dodge]

marhig;4835651]Although I agree with you on many things, I see this differently.

Hello marhig. I quoted that verse in response to this post:

Prizebeatz1;4834577] '. Jesus never really said he died for our sins.

I never gave my opinion on the verse as I felt it was self explanatory.

l believe he's talking about us taking in all of his life that he's poured out and then us living it out and denying sin in our lives and following Jesus. And once we hear the word of God and believe in Jesus having faith we are forgiven of our past sins but then we are to strive to turn from sin.

I agree that all who name the name of Jesus should follow Jesus' example and fight the good fight.
That does not mean that salvation is attained by obeying the law or through works.

The Apostle John taught:

For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves , it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast.

When they asked Jesus what works must we work to receive eternal life Jesus responded by saying this is the work of God that you believe on Him who God has sent. Notice Jesus answered the questions of works with a work i.e. believe in Him.

Jesus denied his flesh and resisted sin overcoming Satan and this world, to bare witness to the truth, bringing us the word of God to save us once we believe and have faith.

Amen, He did exactly that.

Notice though that Jesus' birth was different than ours. Mary was over shadowed by the Holy Spirit and Mary was with child. Jesus had no earthly father as His Father was God the Father.

Adam and Eve who were created without sin by God, and they sinned and disobeyed God.

Jesus the only begotten Son of God and never sinned and became the perfect sacrifice to pay our sin debt.

I am NOT making excuses for sin, but in our flesh Satan has direct access to our weaknesses, sadly.

The Apostle John addressed this by saying:
If we say that we have not sinned , we make Him a liar,and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:10

Then he says if we confess our sin God is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

1 Corinthians 11

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also*he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye,for as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Ok,I believe every word.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Again I believe every word.

Eating and drinking unworthily is believing in God taking Christ in, and not living it out and obeying him. This makes us weak and sickly. If we eat his flesh and drink his blood, then we will show the lords death to he comes. Which is death to the flesh to and being alive in God.

If we take the life of Christ in, and we are truly washed in his blood, which is cleansed by his life, then we will be living it out and denying sin and Christ will be seen in us

And as the Apostle John said we have a provision when we sin and fail:

Then he says ,"if we confess our sin God is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness". 1 John 1:9

Look at this

Hebrews 12

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin...

And look at the NIV version

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

If we have resist to the point of shedding our blood, does that mean we have to die on a cross?

Here they are being told that they have not yet resisted unto blood, meaning they are not living it out and striving to deny their sins.

The blood isn't natural blood, just like the seed isn't a natural seed and the water means the word of God, the blood is the life that Christ poured out, denying his will to do Gods will, and through his life we are saved.

Amen !

John 18

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus didn't come to this world to die on the cross to save us. He came into this world to bare witness to the truth and when we are of the truth we hear his voice and believe in him, then through faith and by the grace of God we are saved.

I believe it was both not either or.

God's righteousness had to be appeased because God will not look on sin as scripture teaches.Jesus came as a payment for our sins so we could receive the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

He came as a sacrifice to pay for our sins as scripture says.

Rom 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


Rom 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Jesus also bore witness to the truth.

 

[Lilstu]

I don't really think "Lilstu" will be around here too long? Sounds like some kind of Cultist with an agenda.

Do you feel threatened by those that disagree with you?
Would you rather banish those with a different view rather than weigh their views and make decisions based on evidence?

 

[Lilstu]

Liar

1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;