Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal
- Thread starter Arthur Brain
- Start date
Gotcha's rarely work or apply with me. In this case, I'd made friend with the paste eater too.lain:
Hilariously precious video of a little girl with a major crush on celebrity Adam Levine, upon her finding out he's betrayed her and gone and gotten himself married, followed by her reaction to him upon actually meeting him.
How she'd related to the "object" of her affection in her precious little "heart" (mind) prior to meeting him, in contrast to how she does upon actually meeting him - her "ew" or "icky" moment - makes for a fascinating study in attraction and Object Relations Theory *.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3aAl92_VDE&app=desktop
__________________
* Object Relations Theory:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations_theory
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
:mmph:
Lon
Well-known member
I do understand this comes from your MAD perspective and that some MAD disagree with you over the matter. I can appreciate being told it was given for a different dispensation. Again thanks for your answer.
That's because my Mid-Acts Based Perspective is a much more advanced, a much more well rounded one.
Other than when I am dealing with MADs much more advanced then myself.
Most I have encountered over the years turn out to be mostly parroting various, long left unexamined understandings handed down to them in one manner or another.
JS often having been perhaps the most glaring example of that.
Though, to his credit, he has been one of the few, not so easily thin-skinned, whenever a thing is pointed out to him.
Nevertheless, I simply turn whatever results I encounter into an opportunity to learn something of use in my further understanding of one thing or another, anyway.
You get really good at seeing things others do not, as a result of this ever being willing to look for some sort of a silver lining in a failed exchange with such.
In short, your two wrongs don't make a right.
:chuckle:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Gotcha's rarely work or apply with me. In this case, I'd made friend with the paste eater too.
Well, wasn't meant to be a "gotcha" as such but it does reinforce the notion that people can simply be wired. I was about the same age when girls became a lot more interesting and attractive. Didn't know why but those attractions stayed and developed. They weren't chosen.
So you have concluded - from where you look out at such things.
There is such a thing as deciding on a course of direction at an unconscious level.
As with that precious three year old's "decision" to crush on an adult male.
Which is as much unconscious choice as previously "decided" on symbolic "objects" meanings formations and their attractions said crush is merely a further development of.
And right there on that couch, that precious little angel was busy, once more, further, unconsciously re-deciding what would now compel her from the point of that meeting, forward.
"And ever since that moment, that day, so long ago, I have always been compelled away from / towards...." such and so...
The formerly unconscious, now...conscious.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Concluded? Yes, I remember when I found the opposite sex attractive and it wasn't a conscious choice obviously. I'm recounting my own experience, one that obviously isn't going to apply to everyone else but often does so what's your point? Heck, I didn't "choose" to find the opposite sex attractive back as a kid or as an adult but that's where every attraction lay and continues to do for me. If you've got an actual point to make then spell it out.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I remember the first time I fell in 'love' with a boy, and he with me.
It was in third grade.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I remember the first time I fell in 'love' with a boy, and he with me.
It was in third grade.
I remember the time that I fell in "love" with a girl and it's very similar in terms of age etc apart from the trifling factor that she didn't feel the same way at all...
lain:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
So, you haven't really got a point at all then. If you wanna talk about the United Nations then be my guest but quit pretending you have some oh so salient observation here.
If it somehow hasn't been clear then I've made the point already that such attractions weren't formed on a conscious level...
Kit the Coyote
New member
So Culture Warrior posted this on his pet thread for me. Yep, I know but from even the worst sources useful information can be found.
The man is a licensed therapist that practices reparation therapy testifying against a conversion therapy law. I will admit, I like this guy, he is professional and feels he is genuinely helping people. This is the guy I'm talking about when I say if you think this therapy works you need to do the hard work science to prove it. If he would just take his program that he is so sure works and do the hard work to prove his science, it might provide an approved safe therapy for this. But alas, they haven't done it so far.
But what I really like about this guy is his professional honesty. If you pay careful attention to all the things he says he doesn't do in his practice, he pretty much outlines all the bad practices which are the reasons why these therapies should be restricted to minors. He is even honest enough to admit that most of the Christian based conversion therapy programs are crap. In his words: "a horrible pray away the gay spiritual shaming".
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I remember the time that I fell in "love" with a girl and it's very similar in terms of age etc apart from the trifling factor that she didn't feel the same way at all...
:rotfl:
Coming back to this... totally cracked me up. :chuckle:
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
1. At the personal: It was interesting to listen to him, but (his admission he was excitable notwithstanding) I don't think I could relax in a therapy session with him, he doesn't have a sense of calmness about him (sounds almost like an evangelist). Clients need to have a good rapport with their therapist and there will be those who will respond better to him than others, even very well. I know that. I just can tell I wouldn't be one of them.
2. At the professional: I looked him up and found a couple things to make me question. Here's a 2015 quote from him:
There’s really only one primary issue fueling this therapy ban,” he continued. “It’s not about harm, or therapy, or children. This is about the normalization of homosexuality, no matter how harm comes to children.
Wait, what? Does that fit with his testimony?
At the same link:
Pickup began experiencing same-sex attractions that lasted throughout much of his life. He later participated in authentic reparative therapy that he says helped saved his life. Today, Pickup is a licensed marriage and family therapist in California with extensive expertise in reparative therapy. He also serves on the board of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH).
What is NARTH?
The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), also known as the NARTH Institute, is a US organization that promotes conversion therapy, a series of discredited, dangerous and unethical regimens that purport to change the sexual orientation of people with same-sex attraction.
So... he's testifying against practices promoted by an organization for which he serves on the board?
Also, one of his questioners remarked on a blurring of the lines. Not ethically (I'm not insinuating that in the slightest) but I wonder about that too -perhaps in his professional emotional distance, considering how his clients' mental status and emotions might overlap with his own life experiences, and where might one end and the other begin?
Also I'm familiar with the therapies he listed: psychodynamics, C/B, EMDR (not too keen on the pschodynamics), but I have no idea what SPSS therapy is. SPSS is the behavioral statistics software program. Maybe I misunderstood him, but I went back and listened again and it still sounded like SPSS.
Lon
Well-known member
Right. I think one has to have a more basic understanding of MAD when discussing this with you. From your perspective, it makes sense. This is actually quite a big disagreement amidst MAD circles, however, from what I understand. If I'm reading you right, you are saying they aren't consistent at that point, but "Mid" Acts can be some chapter in the middle there perhaps :think: I'm always watching, not really much else I can do at that point, just pay attention. In Him -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Me too, but it wasn't sexual. That would only come years later. As you said, it took a certain age to even get that far. I'm fairly convinced the sexual desires are something to be steered later in life. At this point in our age, sexual would have been an 'ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!' We didn't want a girlfriend for that reason at all. At least I didn't. It was simply 'relating to girls' at that point. I think her name was Lisa or something. I was in kindergarten. My mom and grandma asked if I like a girl at school and I said "Lisa" or whatever her name was was. They asked if she knew and I said " no." They told me to go tell her. I really didn't want to, but at their bidding, the next time she was passing out papers I said "Lisa?" She said "what?" I said, "I love you." She said 'Shut up!' That was the end of "Lisa" or whatever her name was. Later I had a friend named Nikki. She was just a fun friend. One day I gave her a nickel to buy some candy as we walked home together. We'd walked home together for three years and often stopped at the store. She threw my nickel in the bushes, and that was the end of Nikki: She cost me a whole nickel!
There was no 'sexual' desire and I'd have been horrified at 'orientation' at that age regarding the matter. It was all, just as I'd said, role-playing and most likely from the pattern my parents had set. I very much believe broken homes are the cause of nearly all confusions.
Kit the Coyote
New member
I'm not an authority but I did notice that part his description sounded a bit like Dyanetics to me *laughs*
He still needs to do that hard work I talk about to prove his methods work. Until that happens I am still strongly on the ban against using these guys with minors.
It is not a matter of "not consistent at that point" as you put it.
Rather, any inconsistency at any point is actually an indicator of an overall inconsistency.
For example, I know many an advanced MAD.
We'll go on with one another about all sorts of Scripture based topics.
When, at some point, one or another relates what is obviously an inconsistency on their part.
Though that is very rare among advanced MADs, it does happen.
Its solving for is always the same: a consideration of the point that was expressed, but not on its own.
Rather, in light of this aspect over here that was not considered, and of this one over there, and these two here, and so on.
All of a sudden, a light bulb comes on, followed by an "oh wow, yeah, and also because of this other thing, and this other one - hah - thanks brother / sister."
I've also sat among a dozen or more Mid-Acts Pastor-Teachers, on one occasion or another, and observed this same kind of comparing notes with one another, and iron sharpening iron, and so on.
And then there are "MADs" who are not like that at all: who take anything said to or asked of them about one thing or another they might do well to rethink through, as some sort of an "out to get them."
That, and or they are simply not at the same, much more well-rounded level on things as a whole.
And most advanced MADs tend to rib one another a great deal.
Which does not go over very well with the more rigid, demon around every corner, types.
Which I find amusing.
Mid-Acts is systems thinking, Lon.
It is not just pieces of a thing. Rather, it is a wholistic way of looking at things - as a whole.
Where a thing is looked at from its whole.
The result being that one finds one is often able to solve for just about any question one might find oneself asking.
Often, the answer already making itself known from within the whole as a systems thinking, even as the question is being asked.
Which requires being very well-rounded. Which takes time, and years, and a sound means of modeling sound approaches on the spot.
I'll have to differ with what you are asserting as being any kind of an evidence against what I stated, Lon.
I'm not mad at you - just MAD.
:thumb:
Many systems end up sounding and or looking like one another at certain points.
Because the human issues are similar, and as a result, the approaches inspired, at those points.
If anything, any sound therapy is not only bound to end up a mix of approaches, but is bound to appear at times, like some other approach it may or may not actually incorporate the how to of.