Why Calvinist, Catholics, Others, Do NOT Have Saving Faith

[God's Truth]

Your link is about worshiping the pope by kissing his feet. The pope is not Jesus Christ even though he thinks that he is. He is just another sinner, a hypocrite sinner just like GT.

You have to obey Jesus. If you do not obey Jesus then how are you not a hypocrite.

 

[God's Truth]

Here is a link that explains your very question a little bit. And might even show a Pope himself saying what you are requesting.

https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8341114

Peace.

I want to debate you here. I don't want to go off to links.

 

[God's Truth]

I realize that you never claimed to be infallible.

My point was, that unless you are infallible...well, then so what if Catholics go against what you say?

In other words, what would make your interpretation better than any one else's?

Believe what is plainly written.

That is the point I was trying to make. I apologize for the confusion.

I can't give Scriptures for some of your claims because there is no Scripture for them.

It isn't the Scriptures I disagree with, it is your interpretation of them.

Here are two examples:

I cannot find a Scripture that says that everything that we need will be written down.

Acts 20:27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.

Acts 20:20
I did not shrink back from declaring anything that was helpful to you as I taught you publicly and from house to house,

If you can show me those Scriptures, I will have been corrected. That's ok. (Won't be the first time or last for me.)

Now that I showed you the scripture will you believe?

I already did that. Go back and look at your post #108. It's no biggie. Our conversation has covered a lot and it gets confusing. At least for me it does.

I didn’t say “worshiping kiss” was in the Bible. You are the one who said they kissed each other, and I said they did not kiss each other on the feet when they met.
You said the Bible doesn’t say they didn’t kiss each other on the feet. I said the Bible does not say they kissed each other on the feet.
The holy kiss isn’t a foot kiss.
It would not make any sense to say they GREETED each other with a holy foot kissing.

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry, no. I found Jesus' Church. The one that He founded in the 1st century. The one He said He would always be with.

Jesus’ body is the church. Your denomination is just that, a denomination and not the body of Christ.

Tell me, how can you be so sure that it isn't I who am after God's Truth and that you are the one after the teachings of men?

Because I go by the words of God and you go by the words of the Catholic pope.

You are guessing. You cannot know those things without claiming omniscience. You are wrong.

My mind, heart, soul, and strength...my every heartbeat and breath given to me by God...I try to offer right back to Him.

I fail. Miserably. But I try to do that nonetheless.

If you obey Jesus then you will not fail miserably.
As for you claiming that no one knows what is in another’s heart, Jesus says we can know.

Stop it. Now I have to post this, then go back and find the post where I stated that very thing before you did and then come back here and paste it in.

Jesus is the Church. I gave you scriptures that tell us plainly but you go against it.

See? No denial that in the Church, Jesus is the Head and we are the Body.

Why are you going against me for saying Jesus is the Church? That is scripture.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Your link is about worshiping the pope by kissing his feet. The pope is not Jesus Christ even though he thinks that he is. He is just another sinner, a hypocrite sinner just like GT.

The Pope "thinks" that he is Jesus Christ?

Oh, he does not. That is just ridiculous, Robert.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I want to debate you here. I don't want to go off to links.

Sometimes links can offer information in a shortcut fashion instead of typing it all out.

Sometimes they are a pain depending on the length of the article that might be found there.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Believe what is plainly written.

If it was that simple, there wouldn't be thousands of denominations. All Christians believe the Bible to be authoritative. We just don't agree on what the meaning of Scripture is.

That's why some groups baptize babies, others don't. Some say we can lose our salvation, others don't. Even our discussion about the meaning of the gates of hell proves this point.

Acts 20:27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.

Acts 20:20
I did not shrink back from declaring anything that was helpful to you as I taught you publicly and from house to house,

Now that I showed you the scripture will you believe?

Believe what? That everything we need was written down?

Of course not. Read those passages again. Neither one says anything about everything we need being written down.

If anything, they say the opposite. They say "proclaim" and "declaring". That is oral teaching, not writing.

Sorry, but that does not support your claim that everything we need was written down because those passages simply do not say that. As a matter of fact, they say nothing at all about writing anything down.

I didn’t say “worshiping kiss” was in the Bible. You are the one who said they kissed each other, and I said they did not kiss each other on the feet when they met.

I believe you claimed that it was the "worshipping kiss that was rebuked". But the Bible doesn't say that.

So that is just your interpretation. That was my point.

And I never claimed that they kissed each other. That is not true.

There were two different points we were talking about at that time: bowing and kissing.

I never claimed that they kissed. If you look back at my posts you will see that that is not what I said.

What I showed from the Bible is that bowing as a sign of respect is acceptable, and greeting with a kiss is acceptable.

You said the Bible doesn’t say they didn’t kiss each other on the feet. I said the Bible does not say they kissed each other on the feet.
The holy kiss isn’t a foot kiss.
It would not make any sense to say they GREETED each other with a holy foot kissing.

The Bible doesn't say either way. You claimed that it was "the worshipping kiss that was rebuked"...but the Bible doesn't say that.

You are kindof hung up on a man-made custom of showing respect that isn't even a matter of doctrine.

You do know that no Catholic is required to kiss the Pope, right? It is just a practice and sign of respect. And today there is no feet kissing to be found.

But a Catholic who meets the Pope today is under no requirement to kiss the Pope at all.

So if some people want to as a sign of respect...so let them. And if some people do not want to...no biggie, they don't have to.

If you don't like it, well do not like it.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Jesus’ body is the church. Your denomination is just that, a denomination and not the body of Christ.

Actually, my Church existed in the 1st century prior to denominationalism. It is pre-denominational.

Because I go by the words of God and you go by the words of the Catholic pope.

Prove it.

And I have a question for you: Is there anybody in your church (I guess I don't even know if you belong to a church or not) who holds authority over you?

If you obey Jesus then you will not fail miserably.

Yeah. You are right. If I obeyed without giving in to temptations to sin, I would.

As for you claiming that no one knows what is in another’s heart, Jesus says we can know.

Where is that at again?

Jesus is the Church. I gave you scriptures that tell us plainly but you go against it.

Not true. Jesus is the Head of the Church as we are His body. I have stated that repeatedly. i have not gone against that at all.

Why are you going against me for saying Jesus is the Church? That is scripture.

I'm not and never have. All I have said is that Jesus is the Head and we are the Body. And that is what Scripture says.

In post #75 you said:

Hell is where spirits of many people go.

Jesus is the Church.

I responded in post #79 by saying:

Jesus is the Head of the Church. Christians are His body. He isn't the whole Church.

Scripture says in Colossians 1:18: " And he is the head of the body, the church; "

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I want to debate you here. I don't want to go off to links.

Will you answer some questions for me please that I have already asked but have gone unanswered?

1. How is Paul (or any Christian for that matter) praying for somebody NOT mediating? What is it if NOT mediating?

2. Does your church use incense as the prophecy in Malachi says?

3. Does anyone in your church hold authority over you?

Thanks.

 

[Robert Pate]

The Pope "thinks" that he is Jesus Christ?

Oh, he does not. That is just ridiculous, Robert.

Why does he sit on a throne like he is God?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Why does he sit on a throne like he is God?

Bishops shepherd from the "cathedral" which is taken from the word "cathedra" or "chair".

The "chair" represents the authority to teach.

Very similar to what Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 23:1-3.

It has nothing to do with anybody thinking that they are God and it is ridiculous for you to think that whoever sits on a throne must think they are God.

Jesus also said that His apostles would sit on thrones and judge in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30.

Do you think Jesus is telling us and them that they are God?

Nah.

Peace.

 

[Robert Pate]

Bishops shepherd from the "cathedral" which is taken from the word "cathedra" or "chair".

The "chair" represents the authority to teach.

Very similar to what Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 23:1-3.

It has nothing to do with anybody thinking that they are God and it is ridiculous for you to think that whoever sits on a throne must think they are God.

Jesus also said that His apostles would sit on thrones and judge in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30.

Do you think Jesus is telling us and them that they are God?

Nah.

Peace.

The purpose of the Catholic church is to try and make you like Christ through the works of the law. Instead of trusting in Christ they are trying to be like Christ. Transubstantiation is a joke and doesn't work. It it did Catholics would be holy. It is evident that Catholics are not holy, if anything they are unholy. The church is full of perverts and hypocrites.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The purpose of the Catholic church is to try and make you like Christ through the works of the law.

Simply not true.

But you have shown that your definition of "works of the law" includes anything and everything religious that anyone does so that would include things like: repentance, loving God and neighbor, forgiving others, keeping the 10 commandments, believing, and having faith...to name a few.

Yet Jesus commands us to do all of those things.

Instead of trusting in Christ they are trying to be like Christ.

Simply not true again.

Catholics trust in Christ and try to imitate Christ.

Just like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:1.

Transubstantiation is a joke and doesn't work.

Wrong again. Simply not true.

It it did Catholics would be holy. It is evident that Catholics are not holy, if anything they are unholy.

Becoming more holy is a process. It takes time for humans to do that.

And I would caution you against using such a broad brush.

Can you tell me what was "unholy" about Mother Theresa?

The church is full of perverts and hypocrites.

I will assume that you are speaking about the priest sex scandal.

Just so you know, less than 5% of Catholic priests have ever even been accused.

That leaves 95% of priests never even accused let alone found guilty.

That is a societal problem that is found all over the place in our world. It is not limited or especially high with the Catholic priesthood.

The Catholic priests just get lots of media coverage because the Catholic Church is fun to bash.

 

[God's Truth]

Sometimes links can offer information in a shortcut fashion instead of typing it all out.

Sometimes they are a pain depending on the length of the article that might be found there.

Put it in your own words, what is in your heart and mind concerning what you were taught from the Catholics.

 

[God's Truth]

Will you answer some questions for me please that I have already asked but have gone unanswered?

1. How is Paul (or any Christian for that matter) praying for somebody NOT mediating? What is it if NOT mediating?

2. Does your church use incense as the prophecy in Malachi says?

3. Does anyone in your church hold authority over you?

Thanks.

I have already answered your questions.

We are not to pray to anyone but to God.

God says there is only one mediator and it is Christ.

I belong to the body of Christ. I am part of the one and only Church.

The prayers of the saved are like incense.

That is the incense that matters.

What don't you get about the bronze snake being destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it?

Jesus holds authority over me.

You are the one who does not answer questions.

 

[God's Truth]

The purpose of the Catholic church is to try and make you like Christ through the works of the law. Instead of trusting in Christ they are trying to be like Christ. Transubstantiation is a joke and doesn't work. It it did Catholics would be holy. It is evident that Catholics are not holy, if anything they are unholy. The church is full of perverts and hypocrites.

You are wrong. The Catholic church does not go through the old law of works.

You say anything as if it were true.

We have to be like Christ, but you go against that every day all day.

You just went against trying to be like Christ when you do not realize God tells us to be like Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

If it was that simple, there wouldn't be thousands of denominations. All Christians believe the Bible to be authoritative. We just don't agree on what the meaning of Scripture is.

It is that simple.
Jesus says it is hid from the wise and learned and given to children.

That's why some groups baptize babies, others don't. Some say we can lose our salvation, others don't. Even our discussion about the meaning of the gates of hell proves this point.

Repent for following falseness and start believing and obeying what is written.

Do not lean to the left or to the right, do not add or subtract.

Acts 20:27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.

Acts 20:20
I did not shrink back from declaring anything that was helpful to you as I taught you publicly and from house to house,


Believe what? That everything we need was written down?

Of course not. Read those passages again. Neither one says anything about everything we need being written down.

If anything, they say the opposite. They say "proclaim" and "declaring". That is oral teaching, not writing.

Sorry, but that does not support your claim that everything we need was written down because those passages simply do not say that. As a matter of fact, they say nothing at all about writing anything down.

I believe you claimed that it was the "worshipping kiss that was rebuked". But the Bible doesn't say that.

So that is just your interpretation. That was my point.

And I never claimed that they kissed each other. That is not true.

There were two different points we were talking about at that time: bowing and kissing.

I never claimed that they kissed. If you look back at my posts you will see that that is not what I said.

You said they greeted each other with a holy kiss, you then went on to argue that it does not say it was not a holy kiss on the feet.

What I showed from the Bible is that bowing as a sign of respect is acceptable, and greeting with a kiss is acceptable..
It would not make any sense to say they GREETED each other with a holy foot kissing.
The Bible doesn't say either way. You claimed that it was "the worshipping kiss that was rebuked"...but the Bible doesn't say that.

You are kindof hung up on a man-made custom of showing respect that isn't even a matter of doctrine.

You do know that no Catholic is required to kiss the Pope, right? It is just a practice and sign of respect. And today there is no feet kissing to be found.

What don’t you get that your pope is a sinner and not preaching and teaching things from God?

What don’t you get that your Catholic pope does NOT tell anyone to stop bowing to him and kissing his feet?

What don’t you get that not all Catholics having to bow to him does NOT mean your pope is not doing wrong?

Just your pope calling himself a ‘pope’ is a sin against God.

Your pope even allows himself to be called ‘holy father’. That name is what Jesus called His Father in heaven. It should make you cringe to hear your leader called that.

 

[God's Truth]

Actually, my Church existed in the 1st century prior to denominationalism. It is pre-denominational.

No, your church is a denomination, and what it teaches shows that it is apostate.


320 Wax Candles introduced in church.

375 Veneration of angels and dead saints.

394 The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted.

431 The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, "Mother of God", as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus

500 Priests began to dress differently from the laity

526 Extreme Unction

593 The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great

600 The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ. The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1st Corinthians 14:9).

600 The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church


(Matthew 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)
610 The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas

This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory 1, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his successor, Boniface III, first assumed title "pope."

Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Luke 22:24-26; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; 1st Corinthians 3:11).

Note: Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that "there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

...and many more.

Prove it.

That is what I am doing; I am proving it to you.

And I have a question for you: Is there anybody in your church (I guess I don't even know if you belong to a church or not) who holds authority over you?

I am in the only true Church, the body of Christ, and Christ Jesus has authority.

Yeah. You are right. If I obeyed without giving in to temptations to sin, I would.

You will not have power to do that if you do not obey Jesus. The Catholic denomination teaches you to do things against God.

Where is that at again?

Jesus says what comes out of the mouth is an overflow from the heart.

Not true. Jesus is the Head of the Church as we are His body. I have stated that repeatedly. i have not gone against that at all.

The scriptures say his body is the Church.

I'm not and never have. All I have said is that Jesus is the Head and we are the Body. And that is what Scripture says.

We are part of his body. His body is the Church.

 

[Robert Pate]

You are wrong. The Catholic church does not go through the old law of works.

You say anything as if it were true.

We have to be like Christ, but you go against that every day all day.

You just went against trying to be like Christ when you do not realize God tells us to be like Christ.

The biblical emphasis is not to be like Christ. The biblical emphasis is to be "In Christ".

You cannot be like Christ as long as you are here on this earth in your Adamic body. Following laws and rules or eating wafers and grape juice will not make you like Christ. What it will make you is a hypocrite, this is why Paul referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

 

[God's Truth]

The biblical emphasis is not to be like Christ. The biblical emphasis is to be "In Christ".

So ignorant and a failure to obey.

As for being transformed, when you have Jesus' teachings in your mind, you are being transformed with these righteous commands to think about and act upon.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

2 Corinthians 2:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.