Why Calvinism, Catholicism, Laws, Rules, Religion Will Not Justify

musterion

musterion

Well-known member
I stopped reading after your first point. I'm not going to argue with your ignorance or read it to you. But it is in there, in Paul's epistles. If you can't find where he tells us what I reported, that's not my problem
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
jsanford108 said:
1.) Where does Scripture say "true Christians were crucified with Him and raised anew?"

2.) So our flesh temps us? Nothing else? Job kind of disagrees. As do the Gospels (remember that time in the desert....)

3.) Persecution in the West is the lightest of examples. The East is full of examples of violent and malevolent persecution of Christians. Even in the West we are targets of violence (mainly from Islam). But we are also the target of theological persecution (examples abound of atheist and liberal attacks on freedom of speech and [Christian] religion).

4.) At this point, all other points you made, I disagree with. Such as "laws" being dismissed (which is in contradiction with Scripture), salvation by grace through faith without works (also contradictory to Scripture), etc. These points take us way off topic, onto other theological discussions. Granted, if these points were true, then the idea of Salvation being "free" would be more reasonable. However, since they contradict with Scripture, how can they be true? As I said, this veers off topic, however it does lay the foundation for doctrinal error.

The core here is unbased doctrine. If a doctrine is false, then the claims that arouse from it are shaky at best. A false doctrine can have truth in it. Evolutionary theory has valid concepts, such as adaptation. But the theory as a whole is false. Same for Pate's doctrine. Some concepts and facts can exist as truth, but as a whole it is false. A doctrine that disagrees with its "authoritative" source, is unsound and invalid.


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The Bible refutes almost everything that you have said. I noticed that you did not quote any scriptures to make your point. Can it be that you don't believe the Bible?

Refutal #1. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 1:20. Paul identified himself with the death of Christ.

Refutal #2. Paul said, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS" Ephesians 2:6. There are no laws or rules for Christians, they have been abolished. Christians are called to live by the Holy Spirit and faith.

Refutal #3. Concerning works. "But to him that does NO WORKS, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly (Jesus) his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Refutal #4, Concerning salvation as a free gift from God. "For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through faith: and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8.

I would recommend that you get into a good Bible study group.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
The Bible refutes almost everything that you have said. I noticed that you did not quote any scriptures to make your point. Can it be that you don't believe the Bible?

Refutal #1. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 1:20. Paul identified himself with the death of Christ.

Refutal #2. Paul said, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS" Ephesians 2:6. There are no laws or rules for Christians, they have been abolished. Christians are called to live by the Holy Spirit and faith.

Refutal #3. Concerning works. "But to him that does NO WORKS, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly (Jesus) his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Refutal #4, Concerning salvation as a free gift from God. "For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through faith: and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8.

I would recommend that you get into a good Bible study group.
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You deny that Christ death alone saved sinners He died for, so you don't believe the scripture!
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
beloved57 said:
You deny that Christ death alone saved sinners He died for, so you don't believe the scripture!
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There is NO scripture that says Christ only died for "Some Certain" persons" What it says is that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Do you enjoy trying to refute God's word?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You continue to make the same stupid accusations because that is all that you can do.

If you were a Christian you would be able to refute what I say. But you are not a Christian.
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Dont you believe that sinners Christ shed His Blood for are still lost ? Yes or No ?
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
beloved57 said:
Dont you believe that sinners Christ shed His Blood for are still lost ? Yes or No ?
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"God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Christ shed his blood for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. Therefore salvation is available to ALL MEN, 1 Timothy 2:4.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
"God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Christ shed his blood for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. Therefore salvation is available to ALL MEN, 1 Timothy 2:4.
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False teaching. You dont believe that Christ's Blood saved them it was shed for. Dont you believe sinners Christ died for shall yet perish ?
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
beloved57 said:
False teaching. You dont believe that Christ's Blood saved them it was shed for. Dont you believe sinners Christ died for shall yet perish ?
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And you will be one of them because you have not received God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8.
 
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jsanford108

New member
Robert Pate said:
The Bible refutes almost everything that you have said. I noticed that you did not quote any scriptures to make your point. Can it be that you don't believe the Bible?

Refutal #1. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 1:20. Paul identified himself with the death of Christ.

Refutal #2. Paul said, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS" Ephesians 2:6. There are no laws or rules for Christians, they have been abolished. Christians are called to live by the Holy Spirit and faith.

Refutal #3. Concerning works. "But to him that does NO WORKS, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly (Jesus) his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Refutal #4, Concerning salvation as a free gift from God. "For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through faith: and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8.

I would recommend that you get into a good Bible study group.
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The verses you provide actually don't support what you said. You are claiming they support your claims, but they don't have the words and emphasis that you say they do.

1) No where does it say "True Christians" in the Bible. Sure, you use the quote of Paul in Galations, but that still doesn't prove Musterion's claim that it says "True Christians...." This is demonstrating how people place words into Scripture that do not exist therein. Also, is Paul not speaking of Baptism? I do believe he is.

2) So the law is abolished? Interesting. Especially given that Christ says otherwise. We see in John 14 that Christ says "those who keep my commandments and obey are the ones who love me." Christ also says "If you love me, keep my commandments." In three separate verses, in one chapter, Christ says "keep my commandments." What are commandments? Laws.

Also, in Matthew 5:17-20, Christ specifically says He did not come to abolish the law. So anyone claiming He did so is contradicting Scripture and Christ, Himself.

3) Concerning works, may be the easiest rebuttal. In Matthew 7, Christ speaks of fruits produced. Fruits are deeds/actions/works. Biblical Scholars the world over agree on this. In this passage, Christ says you will know them by their fruits. Aka, by their works. Now, granted, at this point I have used Christ and the Gospels as my source, rather than Paul. So in order to once again prove works as essential, examine James 2. James demonstrates that works are essential to salvation, as well.

4) My point on "salvation by grace through faith without works" was to demonstrate that this is a misquote. Once again, Musterion added words to the Scriptures to boost his argument being "biblical." The verse does say "salvation through faith," but it does not say "faith alone." No where does the phrase "faith alone" appear, except in James 2:24 (where it says "not by faith alone"). And of course salvation and grace are gifts of God. All things are. Life is a grace of God. Children, wives, husbands, family, freedoms are all gifts and graces of God. So the whole argument against me is kind of fruitless because it is rather silly. Of course salvation is a grace/gift. I never said it wasn't.

The reason I don't quote Scriptures more frequently is simple. I am secure in my faith, backed by sound doctrine. The Scriptures are where I derive my doctrine. I find those who quote Scripture extensively are insecure in doctrine. One ends up scrolling for five minutes before reaching their points; only to be greeted with mental gymnastics to prove their claim. A simple stating of Book, Chapter, and if needed, verse, is quite sufficient. Quoting is only necessary in discussions (as in this one) when accusations are alleged; and even then, quoting entire passages is just pretentious and obnoxious. I give credit where it is due, you never are guilty of this, which I appreciate. As demonstrated above, you quoted only what was necessary. So thank you.

Saying I don't believe in the Bible is rather silly and arrogant. It demonstrates an underestimating of your opponent. So rather than suggest a good Bible study to someone who utilizes logic while not overcompensating with Bible quotes (as some do), perhaps you should take your own advice. Maybe you could quote Christ more and arrive at sound, unbiased doctrines; based in Truth and Scripture.


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J

jsanford108

New member
musterion said:
I stopped reading after your first point. I'm not going to argue with your ignorance or read it to you. But it is in there, in Paul's epistles. If you can't find where he tells us what I reported, that's not my problem
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I wouldn't want to go against someone who was calling out hypocritical claims I made. Especially someone who utilized logic, reason, and Christ's teachings and words. If you need rebuttal points, Robert Pate made some good ones. I refuted them, but his points were decent and well formed.


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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You are the one that denies that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

To deny that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.
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You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost, thus nullifying the Saving power of Christ blood! That is unbelief!
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
jsanford108 said:
The verses you provide actually don't support what you said. You are claiming they support your claims, but they don't have the words and emphasis that you say they do.

1) No where does it say "True Christians" in the Bible. Sure, you use the quote of Paul in Galations, but that still doesn't prove Musterion's claim that it says "True Christians...." This is demonstrating how people place words into Scripture that do not exist therein. Also, is Paul not speaking of Baptism? I do believe he is.

2) So the law is abolished? Interesting. Especially given that Christ says otherwise. We see in John 14 that Christ says "those who keep my commandments and obey are the ones who love me." Christ also says "If you love me, keep my commandments." In three separate verses, in one chapter, Christ says "keep my commandments." What are commandments? Laws.

Also, in Matthew 5:17-20, Christ specifically says He did not come to abolish the law. So anyone claiming He did so is contradicting Scripture and Christ, Himself.

3) Concerning works, may be the easiest rebuttal. In Matthew 7, Christ speaks of fruits produced. Fruits are deeds/actions/works. Biblical Scholars the world over agree on this. In this passage, Christ says you will know them by their fruits. Aka, by their works. Now, granted, at this point I have used Christ and the Gospels as my source, rather than Paul. So in order to once again prove works as essential, examine James 2. James demonstrates that works are essential to salvation, as well.

4) My point on "salvation by grace through faith without works" was to demonstrate that this is a misquote. Once again, Musterion added words to the Scriptures to boost his argument being "biblical." The verse does say "salvation through faith," but it does not say "faith alone." No where does the phrase "faith alone" appear, except in James 2:24 (where it says "not by faith alone"). And of course salvation and grace are gifts of God. All things are. Life is a grace of God. Children, wives, husbands, family, freedoms are all gifts and graces of God. So the whole argument against me is kind of fruitless because it is rather silly. Of course salvation is a grace/gift. I never said it wasn't.

The reason I don't quote Scriptures more frequently is simple. I am secure in my faith, backed by sound doctrine. The Scriptures are where I derive my doctrine. I find those who quote Scripture extensively are insecure in doctrine. One ends up scrolling for five minutes before reaching their points; only to be greeted with mental gymnastics to prove their claim. A simple stating of Book, Chapter, and if needed, verse, is quite sufficient. Quoting is only necessary in discussions (as in this one) when accusations are alleged; and even then, quoting entire passages is just pretentious and obnoxious. I give credit where it is due, you never are guilty of this, which I appreciate. As demonstrated above, you quoted only what was necessary. So thank you.

Saying I don't believe in the Bible is rather silly and arrogant. It demonstrates an underestimating of your opponent. So rather than suggest a good Bible study to someone who utilizes logic while not overcompensating with Bible quotes (as some do), perhaps you should take your own advice. Maybe you could quote Christ more and arrive at sound, unbiased doctrines; based in Truth and Scripture.


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Salvation is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone. The Bible does not say that, but it is implied. If salvation is not by faith alone then what is it? Man is a sinner he can do nothing to save himself. The only thing that God acknowledges in the Bible is faith, see the 11th chapter of Hebrews.

James was a Judaizer when he wrote the book of James. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses, Galatians 2:12. James sent men to spy on Peter to see if he was eating with Gentiles.

The law has been abolished. When Jesus fulfilled it, he abolished it. To be under the law is to be under judgment and condemnation, Galatians 3:10. Jesus's purpose was to fulfill the law and not to abolish it. A law that is fulfilled is abolished, Colossians 2:14.

Works are not essential for salvation, Romans 4:5. Works are the results of the indwelling Holy Spirit, Ephesians 2:10. We do good works not to be saved, but because we are saved.
 
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