I didn't ask you about that
but
suicide is the only one
and
they may not have to repent
if
they do it after trying to reply to one of your posts
Who Posted?
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
I didn't ask you about that
but
suicide is the only one
and
they may not have to repent
if
they do it after trying to reply to one of your posts
Where I'd say that's an ecclesiastically myopic summation, conflating the schism with its larger efforts and ongoing examination of the Christian walk. Rather, in its foundation Protestantism was about separating itself from its perception of corruption and distortion within the Catholic church. You might be surprised to learn that once separated a great deal of what followed wasn't particularly concerned with that, certainly not in the modern incarnations.
I'll admit to being a bit of that in understanding your critique on the point. What is "an emotionally human faith"?
Jesus wept, man. Literally.
One of the few things I admired about the Protestant churches I became familiar with as an atheist, the Episcopal, Methodist, Church of Christ, Baptist (to a lesser extent) was how much of their resources were fixed on addressing human misery and need. Which seemed philosophically consistent with Christ's work among us and exhortations regarding.
Certainly in this type of environment and among zealots in general, whatever their faith, when confronted by one another.
And hardly a singularly Protestant problem.
So says, in essence and altering a few pronouns, every particular expression of our common faith to every other (excepting the Methodists, who would consider it rude). :think:
Well, you know what they say, one man's illegitimate child born out of wedlock from the adulterous scholasticism of her apostatic authoritarian vanity of dominion over Christ's Body on earth is another man's return to fundamental truths and principles.
lain:
Arsenios
Well-known member
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Finally!
We can be serious without being all that touchy!
I owe you a good belly laugh!
A.
Arsenios
Well-known member
MAYBE -
But you are not NEARLY as smelly!
Then WHY do you entertain contrary beliefs?
Relevance, mostly...
And some are loaded...
Most of mine are...
I hope not!
So as your REWARD, I will answer your question...
IF you do NOT repent of KNOWN UNCHRISTIAN BELIEFS, you will experience a departure of God's Grace in some degree, depending on you and God and your relationship... That Grace IS your Salvation... It is also your damnation, should you "go south"...
Better now?
Arsenios
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Arsenios
Well-known member
Dat be das BIRD!
It is one that wallows in (need I say?) human emotionality...
Jesus wept, man. Literally.
He did, after self-rebuke...
And when I see what is being discarded...
And what is being retained instead...
I weep too...
It is no substitute for the rest, which is discarded...
It is Martha Christianity - Nothing wrong with it...
Feed the homeless and shelter them, and the poor, and do all manner of social human services... All are good works... And all ignore Mary's Christianity, for "She has taken the better part, and it shall not be taken from her..." [Christ's words]...
And again: "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of Heaven..."
By their fruits shall ye know them...
The Orthodox fruits of last century and this one already is one of persecutions and martyrdoms...
These fruits are precious few outside Orthodoxy...
Over 40 million in Russia alone... And the hands of the Atheists...
Well, you know what they say, one man's illegitimate child born out of wedlock from the adulterous scholasticism of her apostatic authoritarian vanity of dominion over Christ's Body on earth is another man's return to fundamental truths and principles.
No question...
So the resolution is to be found in the uncontested witness of the Patristic Tradition of the Church from the Beginnings for 2000 years unchanging... And this witness is consistently found in the Eastern Orthodox Faith... The Oriental Orthodox are on al pages the same as we are, and the reason for our schism could very well be merey language/linguistic issues...
Latin Rome is now well outside the box... Their heresy that Peter is the Ruler of Christ's Body on earth is a very serious one...
Arsenios
Larry? Because if we have Larry you're only fighting for second place.
And what is evidence of that? Where is the line of demarcation between compassion and wallowing? Between comforting and wallowing?
Did he rebuke himself for weeping?
When I see people, fallible, weak, divided, divisive, uniting on the sovereignty of God, the message of the cross and the divinity of Christ I'm encouraged. I expect us to get a lot of it side ways. That's our nature. That we get the essentials right is a small miracle in itself and one to celebrate.
The foundation of our faith beyond the salvific is to witness, love and minister to others, our neighbors. As between that and the colder academic distinctions I say love and do.
Ignore what, specifically?
And you see feeding the hungry, witnessing to the heathen and comforting the afflicted as what else?
Sure. Men in love don't tend to have to tell you. Watch them and you'll see it. You'll also see them screw up horribly, but that's part of the human package.
We were first killed by heathens and then Christendom started killing its own. No shortage of Catholic and Protestant martyrs. Shake an English tree and out they fall.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot did a great job of killing inside and outside of those lines.
What's your heresy to a Catholic and what's both your heresies to this or that Protestant? And so it goes. As for me, I look to the thief on the cross and the exhortations of Christ, the clarification of Paul and am content that while our humanity may forever divide the fallible Body, God will unify us in grace yet.
:e4e:
Levolor
New member
Amen.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Luther flipped Rome a Larry then...
Dispassion...
No - It was for NOT weeping...
Given those, then yes... But there is far, far more...
The seeking first of the Kingdom of Heaven... Addressing one's self to God in denial of self
As addressing one's self to the needs of the selves of others...
God Bless Ya, Bro...
Arsenios
:think: I don't see how that's possible. Dispassion is the buffer between compassion and overkill? Dispassion is an alternative. I don't read anything dispassionate in the Bible's depiction of God.
Are you struggling against my point or your own then?
I wrote: The foundation of our faith beyond the salvific is to witness, love and minister to others, our neighbors. As between that and the colder academic distinctions I say love and do.
Nothing more important. And I'll take John the Beloved and suggest, given how much of that division and condescension laden decoder ring dispute exists between the factions of Christendom maybe that more isn't so important, set against the central mission of each of us who have been given an unmerited grace.
I think loving, witnessing is doing that.
Everyone wants to suffer for God...no one wants to sing for him. :sigh:
I wrote: And you see feeding the hungry, witnessing to the heathen and comforting the afflicted as what else?
As acting in love, as Christ who indwells us and gives us the capacity to understand and act compels us.
And you as well. :e4e:
Arsenios
Well-known member
Self denial yields dispassion...
Obedience kills self will...
Paul said to obey those appointed over you...
As they must give account for your soul...
And for one in obedience to the Apostleship of Christ, being discipled by the Apostolic Church, it is an all out and direct assault on the passion-enbroiled old man of the soul trapped in his own sinful passions...
Worldly dispassion, and war against demonic powers operating in our own worldly flesh and thoughts, as we put on Christ...
For Him the scene was a cause for joy, because He could see what the others could not... And he rebuked this deep feeling... And Jesus wept with those weeping... Scripture does not tell us why... We just know that He wept...
God is more important... If we have the Kingdom of Heaven, these things will come according to God's direction... If not, then all our ministering and loving and witnessing are for nothing...
That is where the Latins ended up too - Being a social services ministry, in much or most of their efforts... Mother Theresa in India being the icon...
Seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven? It is the lesser part, which Martha had... Her sister had Christ, the greater part... Both are blessed... But there IS a greater and a lesser...
In your dreams! Exactly the reverse is true!
I think you are presuming the successful seeking of the Kingdom of Heaven already enacted FIRST...
Attaining God is the FIRST responsibility of a Christian...
ALL else follows...
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL...
And THEN...
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self...
Arsenios
I don't believe that either of those is the desire or suits the nature of God or His creation. We weren't built for strings, but for the work of love upon us, through and with us.
All right. How are you applying those to the subject?
Where I see a congregation of the grateful, of those who love as they were loved, who should forgive as they have been forgiven and who must call to men in the blindness of bondage out of joy and in hope.
I'm not at war in my person. I've surrendered to Christ. My imperfection is no mystery to God. He sees it daily, as He does my love. And those failures only increase my love and my desire for the good, because in them I remain His, forgiven not because of any merit on my part, but in mercy.
Well, it wasn't because he was dispassionate or happy. That much we can know.
God is the context, the foundation and the means. He's not being compared so what you're doing there isn't a fair answer and no rebuke.
Without God first we will not have any of it, to be sure. Who is arguing that point? We should have a talk with them.
As between you and John, I'll take John (meaning you no slight). And I think you do both the Catholics and myself a disservice born of a misguided pride when you reduce what they do and I'm saying in this fashion, make an act of love, an advancement of the good suspect or trivailized. I hope you repent of it at some point, but I'm not angry with you over it.
I'm content to serve the good as God allows me to see. A man who is in Christ has what God desires he have. I am content.
I've never heard a zealot who wasn't busy decrying the want of others, damning or separating with hard words or the odd gentle condescension. And it is no particular dream of mine.
Attaining God? I'm not sure how you mean it. It's the attaining perhaps. Do you mean by that accepting pardon, grace, repenting and inviting the sovereign indwelling of the spirit? I'd agree that's the thing the precedes what follows, which is the outflow of love and the fruit thereof.
Of course.
Of course. You can't love your neighbor or even yourself absent that foundation. I've never argued to the contrary.
Arsenios
Well-known member
I don't believe that either of those is the desire or suits the nature of God or His creation. We weren't built for strings, but for the work of love upon us, through and with us.
All right. How are you applying those to the subject?
Where I see a congregation of the grateful, of those who love as they were loved, who should forgive as they have been forgiven and who must call to men in the blindness of bondage out of joy and in hope.
I'm not at war in my person. I've surrendered to Christ. My imperfection is no mystery to God. He sees it daily, as He does my love. And those failures only increase my love and my desire for the good, because in them I remain His, forgiven not because of any merit on my part, but in mercy.
Well, it wasn't because he was dispassionate or happy. That much we can know.
God is the context, the foundation and the means. He's not being compared so what you're doing there isn't a fair answer and no rebuke.
Without God first we will not have any of it, to be sure. Who is arguing that point? We should have a talk with them.
As between you and John, I'll take John (meaning you no slight). And I think you do both the Catholics and myself a disservice born of a misguided pride when you reduce what they do and I'm saying in this fashion, make an act of love, an advancement of the good suspect or trivailized. I hope you repent of it at some point, but I'm not angry with you over it.
I'm content to serve the good as God allows me to see. A man who is in Christ has what God desires he have. I am content.
I've never heard a zealot who wasn't busy decrying the want of others, damning or separating with hard words or the odd gentle condescension. And it is no particular dream of mine.
Attaining God? I'm not sure how you mean it. It's the attaining perhaps. Do you mean by that accepting pardon, grace, repenting and inviting the sovereign indwelling of the spirit? I'd agree that's the thing the precedes what follows, which is the outflow of love and the fruit thereof.
Of course.
Of course. You can't love your neighbor or even yourself absent that foundation. I've never argued to the contrary.
Great post - Thank-you...
When John began his ministry baptizing in the wilderness, he said: "Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand..." He was announcing very good news, new news, for it had never been at hand before... And he went on to explain the One coming after him Who IS before him... That One IS the Kingdom of Heaven ON EARTH... He is God Incarnate IN THE FLESH, just as you and I are in the flesh, and in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, the members of His Body EAT His Body and Drink His Blood, or they have no Life in them...
And we are told of this Kingdom that it is suffering violence, as indeed Christ is and has continued to do... Christ on earth in the flesh IS the Kingdom of Heaven which we, the violent, are seizing by force... This is what I meant by seeking FIRST the Kingdom of Heaven, by attaining God...
Now Christ Ascended bodily into Heaven to sit at the Right Hand of the Most High, but He ALSO left His Body here on earth, in the Flesh, in the flesh of His Apostles and Disciples, for they, the Ekklesia of God, His Church as we call it in the west, ARE the Body of Christ WHO is Her Head...
THIS is the Household, the Ekonomia, of God's Plan for the Salvation of Man on earth, that man should be foreknown, preselected, and called by God, Who then gives him His righteousness in Baptism and sanctifies him, and when the time is full, glorifies the man forcing himself to attain the Kingdom of Heaven which is suffering violence... To attain Christ Himself, who so suffered for us...
To do so is to gain Salvation from God by His Holy Grace...
Now WHEN one falls away from this pursuit, in varying degrees, and turns instead to social services to the poor, that work is blessed, but it is not the better part... And this can be seen when serving the poor is the primary ministry... It is an essential ministry, please understand, but it is the secondary one behind repentance and gaining Christ within one's self...
And I think we agree pretty much - I happen to have an understanding of these matters that is somewhat foreign to yours... Your understanding centers on surrendering to Christ and serving the poor as opportunity presents itself, while mine centers on the forcing of denial of self in the attainment of the Kingdom of Heaven...
:e4e:
Arsenios
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Arsenios
Well-known member
yours is a good way to prepare for the priesthood
but
sooner or later you must deal with the real world
Arsenios
Well-known member
I am practicing by dealing with you, you dog!
Arsenios
soon you will be able to help me
Arsenios
Well-known member
I am NOT preparing for the priesthood, btw...
This is just plain ol' Orthodoxy 101...
Arsenios