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Justified WHEN, though?
No one was ever justified before he/she believed the gospel. Remember: Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith, and not BEFORE faith.
Who Justifieth the Ungodly
- Thread starter beloved57
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Justified WHEN, though?
No one was ever justified before he/she believed the gospel. Remember: Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith, and not BEFORE faith.
beloved57
Well-known member
Justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ !
Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
We are justified by the faith of Christ, not by our faith in Christ, but by the faith and faithful obedience of Christ himself unto death as our Surety. Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
His obedience here does imply His faithfulness, adherence to His Covenant engagement, this obedience/faitfulness results in many being made righteous, or Justified. So we are first and foremost Justified by the faithfulness of Christ as stated in Gal 2:16 !
Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
We are justified by the faith of Christ, not by our faith in Christ, but by the faith and faithful obedience of Christ himself unto death as our Surety. Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
His obedience here does imply His faithfulness, adherence to His Covenant engagement, this obedience/faitfulness results in many being made righteous, or Justified. So we are first and foremost Justified by the faithfulness of Christ as stated in Gal 2:16 !
beloved57
Well-known member
When we understand that we are Justified before God by Christs faithful obedience, the faith of Christ, then we avoid the pitfall that has snared many, that is, if we are Justified before God because of our faith, whether it be natural faith, or regenerated faith, then we make Justification before God to be by what we do, instead of by what Christ did. To propose, or indicate in any means that our works, or even our faith/believing, had anything at all to do with making us righteous before God for justification is to deny the Gospel of Gods Grace entirely.
We know God justifies the wicked but we also know God does not justify the wicked alone but requires a response from the wicked before He is willing to justify them.
Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
James 2:23-25
King James Version
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
+++++++++++++++++++
Calvinists must assume God made Abraham believe and God made Rahab hide the spies, but the Bible does not teach that God makes humans do things as thought humans are incapable of doing anything of their own free will.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Posts 802, 803 did you understand the points I made with scripture ? Do you want to discuss them ?
beloved57
Well-known member
What does the words Faith of Christ mean ?
beloved57
Well-known member
Those who Christ died for cannot be condemned ! Because He was raised again for their Justification Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Also Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again[for our Justification], who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Also Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again[for our Justification], who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
You have your sack full of repetitive arguments that you are stuck on. Sadly, those arguments are contradicted by other scriptures you seem quite ignorant of.
beloved57
Well-known member
Are the elect Justified before God by the bare fact alone they are elect and Christ died for them ?
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Now in considering your reply, consider # 1 was the alone satisfaction made by Christ, be full satisfaction unto the Justice of God or not?
# 2 If Christs alone oblation satisfied Gods Justice of the elect, then that fact alone advocates their discharge acquittal.
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Now in considering your reply, consider # 1 was the alone satisfaction made by Christ, be full satisfaction unto the Justice of God or not?
# 2 If Christs alone oblation satisfied Gods Justice of the elect, then that fact alone advocates their discharge acquittal.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
We plead to the Lord, "Look not on our sin, but on the faith of Your Church." It's ongoing, not a wooden, literal once-for-all-time, even though it of course was Once, the One cross of Christ. He says, "Do this in memory of Me," and what does he mean? but to break bread (cf. Acts 2:42). In the breaking of bread we remember the One cross. "Do this in memory of Me." "Look not on our sin, but on the faith of Your Church," we say, I think because we are only saved by the cross by and or through and or in faith in Christ, and or the Gospel. But the point is, we recognize the cross of Christ in relation to our sin, which is ongoing, perhaps, for many. We are the ones who plead even deeper, "Look not on our sin, but on the faith of Your Church," we are the ones who deliver impassioned "LORD HAVE MERCY's and CHRIST HAVE MERCY's" and we are the ones who don't regard their own sin like how God views it. We don't act like we didn't sin before. We did sin, and a lot probably, in some ways. We don't ignore that, we know we are eternally forgiven, but we never forget who we were, who we are, in some sense. It gets a little psychologically epistemological at this point but for certain sin remains an open choice for all of us. Just because we are saved for all eternity does not justify not caring about whether or not you sin in your body.
beloved57
Well-known member
Col 2:14 shows that all the sin debts owed to Gods law and Justice against the elect have been blotted out the record books
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
So in the day of Judgment, they have nothing to fear as others who will be Judged out the books Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
So in the day of Judgment, they have nothing to fear as others who will be Judged out the books Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Salvation and condemnation, thank God, are not predicated on works. Nobody is saved solely by doing good works and nobody is condemned solely for doing bad works. Condemnation results from rejecting the light that is clearly revealed to the sinner by the Holy Spirit. Salvation results from receiving the light clearly revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
John 1
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
beloved57
Well-known member
So do you understand what Col 2:14 is stating about what occurred at the Cross for them Christ died? What happened to their sins that was against them ?Salvation and condemnation, thank God, are not predicated on works. Nobody is saved solely by doing good works and nobody is condemned solely for doing bad works. Condemnation results from rejecting the light that is clearly revealed to the sinner by the Holy Spirit. Salvation results from receiving the light clearly revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
John 1
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
beloved57
Well-known member
Christs death for them He died for, made an end to sin, which of course leaves them Justified. Lets look at a scripture that states this, and is the perfect complement to Col 2:14
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
He made an end of sins because they were nailed to His Cross and taken out of the way, never to come back again against them.
Also those for whom Christ made an end of sins for, brought to them an everlasting righteousness, which also covers them unto Justification!
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
He made an end of sins because they were nailed to His Cross and taken out of the way, never to come back again against them.
Also those for whom Christ made an end of sins for, brought to them an everlasting righteousness, which also covers them unto Justification!
Begging the question.
"Them whom Christ died for" refers to the entire world, not whatever you calvinists claim it means.
The phrase "for whom Christ died" occurs twice in the bible neither of which are used in the sense that b57 uses the phrase.
I love both passages for two reasons. Both passages are talking about our liberty in Christ and how we should be careful not to cause others to stumble because of our freedom and that therefore, even our freedom in Christ takes a back seat to considering others more highly than ourselves.
That's clearly the most important aspect of these two passages but since this has come up in the context of a conversation about Calvinism, I thought I'd just quote the passages here and ask people to imagine what it would be like trying to unravel what is being said from within a paradigm that says that everything that happens has been predestined, was set in place by God before time began and cannot have happened otherwise.
What mental gymnastics must the Calvinist perform while reading these passages?
"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food." - What?!!
What could that sentence possibly mean to a Calvinist?
What must it be like to believe that God made the world in such a way that every choice you make is an illusion? What does the Calvinist believe was God's motive in making a world where it only looks like everyone has a free will and where even they are incapable of talking about the world without using terms that make it sound like we do have a free will? Imagine having to go through life knowing that the majority of what you do, whether in thought, word or deed, is done in a manner that contradicts your doctrine in such a fundamental way!
Clete
I love both passages for two reasons. Both passages are talking about our liberty in Christ and how we should be careful not to cause others to stumble because of our freedom and that therefore, even our freedom in Christ takes a back seat to considering others more highly than ourselves.
That's clearly the most important aspect of these two passages but since this has come up in the context of a conversation about Calvinism, I thought I'd just quote the passages here and ask people to imagine what it would be like trying to unravel what is being said from within a paradigm that says that everything that happens has been predestined, was set in place by God before time began and cannot have happened otherwise.
Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
1 Corinthians 8:9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
What mental gymnastics must the Calvinist perform while reading these passages?
"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food." - What?!!
What could that sentence possibly mean to a Calvinist?
What must it be like to believe that God made the world in such a way that every choice you make is an illusion? What does the Calvinist believe was God's motive in making a world where it only looks like everyone has a free will and where even they are incapable of talking about the world without using terms that make it sound like we do have a free will? Imagine having to go through life knowing that the majority of what you do, whether in thought, word or deed, is done in a manner that contradicts your doctrine in such a fundamental way!
Clete
Well I guarantee you that most Calvinist preachers aren't doing Sunday school lessons or preaching sermons on passages like this, assuming they even know the passages exist!
Forget the congregation's awareness of them...
I think for most people, their brains just shut down when they sit in their pews on Sunday mornings. That's the only explanation I have for it.
Well, I think that's exactly right. They literally think that it isn't for them to understand, it's for them to believe - period. And that's if it ever occurs to them to notice the incongruity in the first place. Typically, at most, they think "I'm going to ask the Pastor about this after the service is over." and then after its over, there's a crowd around the pastor and they aren't really sure how to phrase the question in the first place and, besides all that, the lines at the restaurants are getting longer by the second and so the question can wait and then it never gets asked at all.
On the rare occasion that someone does ask the Calvinist pastor such a question, the answer will be even more contradictory than the contradiction being asked about and the pew sitter will go away at least as confused as when they asked the question but to sooth their anxiety, they will tell themselves that they're so lucky to have such a wise pastor who understands all this doctrinal stuff and how amazing God must be since He makes no sense whatsoever.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Where Gods Elect Justified before and by God while they were ungodly?
The mere fact alone they are Gods elect means they are Justified Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Even when the elect are in a unregenerate state dead in sins, and by nature, children of wrath as others Eph 2:3, they are yet still Gods elect and therefore Justified before God.
As long as a person is one of Gods elect nothing shall be laid to their charge by God!
An elect is an elect while in a lost state even as a sheep is a sheep while in a lost state Lk 15:4-6
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
The mere fact alone they are Gods elect means they are Justified Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Even when the elect are in a unregenerate state dead in sins, and by nature, children of wrath as others Eph 2:3, they are yet still Gods elect and therefore Justified before God.
As long as a person is one of Gods elect nothing shall be laid to their charge by God!
An elect is an elect while in a lost state even as a sheep is a sheep while in a lost state Lk 15:4-6
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
God justifieth the elect and offers to save lost people if they will only turn to Him in repentance from their sins.