ECT Who is saved?

[oatmeal]

Hi and here is what I believe !!

#1 , Before anyone can believe and be saved , Christ , He has to OPEN THE HEART as in Acts 16:14 !!

#2 , No one calls Jesus LORD EXCEPT by the HOLY SPIRIT , 1 Cor 12:3 !!

#3 Then Christ gives the FAITH TO BELIEVE !!

#4 When all acknowledge that He is LORD you have the Holy Spirit !!

#5 Then all are then BAPTIZO / PLACED into the Body of Christ , 1 Cor 12:13 !!

dan p

What does Romans 10:9-10 tell us?

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[DAN P]

What does Romans 10:9-10 tell us?

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Hi and this is what Rom 10:9 really means !!

That if you should confess with your mouth ( the ) Lord Jesus , and , should believe in your Heart that God raised Him from the dead , you will be saved !!

#1 , The first verb is If YOU SHALL CONFESS / HOMOLOGEO is in the Greek AOTIST TENSE ACTIVE VOICE and in the SUBJECTIVE MOOD !!

The AOTIST points back to the time that you confessed Him as Lord !!

The ACTIVE VOICE is when that person as the subject did that confession , in that point in Time !!

The SUBJECTIVE MOOD controls that verve until , when a person does his confession !!

#2 , The next 2 verbs , SHALL BELIEVE and HATH RAISED are also in the AORIST TENSE of a past action !!

#3 The last Greek word YOU WILL BE SAVED / SOZO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative Mood !!

Why the FUTURE TENSE , is because God has being SAVING people for the last 2000 years because we are still in the Dispensation of the Grace of God !!

The PASSIVE VOICE MEANS THAT IT IS God doing the SAVING and the INDICATIVE Mood means it is FACT !!

dan p

 

[oatmeal]

Hi and this is what Rom 10:9 really means !!

That if you should confess with your mouth ( the ) Lord Jesus , and , should believe in your Heart that God raised Him from the dead , you will be saved !!

#1 , The first verb is If YOU SHALL CONFESS / HOMOLOGEO is in the Greek AOTIST TENSE ACTIVE VOICE and in the SUBJECTIVE MOOD !!

The AOTIST points back to the time that you confessed Him as Lord !!

The ACTIVE VOICE is when that person as the subject did that confession , in that point in Time !!

The SUBJECTIVE MOOD controls that verve until , when a person does his confession !!

#2 , The next 2 verbs , SHALL BELIEVE and HATH RAISED are also in the AORIST TENSE of a past action !!

#3 The last Greek word YOU WILL BE SAVED / SOZO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative Mood !!

Why the FUTURE TENSE , is because God has being SAVING people for the last 2000 years because we are still in the Dispensation of the Grace of God !!

The PASSIVE VOICE MEANS THAT IT IS God doing the SAVING and the INDICATIVE Mood means it is FACT !!

dan p

Thank you expanding those verses.

Your work clearly indicates that there are no other conditions to be met in addition to the two listed in Romans 10:9

 

[Patrick Cronin]

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord.Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven.(Matthew 7:21) So 'confessing with the mouth' must also be accompanied by a transformation of behaviour and avoidance of evil thoughts and actions. That sounds ominously like 'good works'!

 

[oatmeal]

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord.Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven.(Matthew 7:21) So 'confessing with the mouth' must also be accompanied by a transformation of behaviour and avoidance of evil thoughts and actions. That sounds ominously like 'good works'!

That is very nice, but I am asking about being saved, not about entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Your verse speaks of saying "Lord, Lord".

Romans 10:9-10 has two, not just one, requirements,

1. Confess with your mouth the lord Jesus

2. Believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.

Only once a person is saved is he capable of doing the good works that God, not man, considers good works. Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Faither]

Romans 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who is saved?

What are the conditions that must be met to receive the gift of salvation?

Hi oatmeal ,

Thanks for this topic. I've just come back here after being away for the last 6 months .

You asked , who is saved ? But your question is being more about "how' we are saved .

You provided Rom 10:9-10 to support an understanding . An understanding held by most of the church world today . The problem isn't with confessing with our mouths , but "believing in our hearts" thats the big stumbling block .

The words believe , believer , and believing are used 248 times in the NT. They translate the Greek word "pisteuo". Pisteuo is the verb form of the noun pistis , which is where our english word "Faith" comes from .

The problem is the English language has no word to translate pisteuo correctly. The words the English shold have had are faithe , faither , and faithing . Since those words were not available to the translators they used the words believe , believer , and believing .

With that said , the correct definition of "pisteuo" in the Vines Greek dictionary is "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender .

So Rom . 10:9-10 should read 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt continually surrender there lives to Him in thine heart and that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Theres a big difference between believing in thy heart and surrendering our lives to Him continually with every decision we make to support that surrender .

This surrendering of our life to Him only starts the opportunity to ultimately recieve the Grace deposit which is the Holy Spirit.

Did i communicate this ok ?

 

[DAN P]

Thank you expanding those verses.

Your work clearly indicates that there are no other conditions to be met in addition to the two listed in Romans 10:9

Hi and just to be sure , I believe that no one is saved WITH OUT CHRIST FIRST OPENING THE HEART B Acts 16:14 then Eph 2:8 Christ gives the FAITH to believe , THEN Rom 10:9 happens !!

dan p

 

[oatmeal]

Hi oatmeal ,

Thanks for this topic. I've just come back here after being away for the last 6 months .

You asked , who is saved ? But your question is being more about "how' we are saved .

You provided Rom 10:9-10 to support an understanding . An understanding held by most of the church world today . The problem isn't with confessing with our mouths , but "believing in our hearts" thats the big stumbling block .

The words believe , believer , and believing are used 248 times in the NT. They translate the Greek word "pisteuo". Pisteuo is the verb form of the noun pistis , which is where our english word "Faith" comes from .

The problem is the English language has no word to translate pisteuo correctly. The words the English shold have had are faithe , faither , and faithing . Since those words were not available to the translators they used the words believe , believer , and believing .

With that said , the correct definition of "pisteuo" in the Vines Greek dictionary is "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender .

So Rom . 10:9-10 should read 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt continually surrender there lives to Him in thine heart and that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Theres a big difference between believing in thy heart and surrendering our lives to Him continually with every decision we make to support that surrender .

This surrendering of our life to Him only starts the opportunity to ultimately recieve the Grace deposit which is the Holy Spirit.

Did i communicate this ok ?

Yes, to continue in the word is one of the characteristics of a disciple.

Can a person be saved and not be a disciple?

Doing the works to become a disciple is keep Jesus as lord and continuing to believe in that power that God used to raise him from the dead.

That would take more information from scripture than what is necessary to know and do to receive salvation.

Those who done Romans 10:9 are those who are saved.

In order to determine who is saved we must know how to be saved.

Yet, many people have met the requirements of Romans 10:9, yet still doubt, still wonder if they are saved.

 

[Faither]

Yes, to continue in the word is one of the characteristics of a disciple.

Can a person be saved and not be a disciple?

Doing the works to become a disciple is keep Jesus as lord and continuing to believe in that power that God used to raise him from the dead.

That would take more information from scripture than what is necessary to know and do to receive salvation.

Those who done Romans 10:9 are those who are saved.

In order to determine who is saved we must know how to be saved.

Yet, many people have met the requirements of Romans 10:9, yet still doubt, still wonder if they are saved.

I'll first make two bold statements and then try to explain why i've said them.

1) There is no such thing as "believing" well enough to be saved .

We as humans perform or fulfill hundreds of acts of Faith every hour . Faith or the act faithing (pisteuo) is an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidense . We fulfill 3 or 4 acts of Faith just getting out of bed in the morning .

NT Faith or faithing is a specific act , based upon a specific belief , and sustained by a specific confidense . The specific act is the continual surrendering of our lives to Christ , based upon the belief that He will accept the surrendered life , and sustained by making decisions that its His life now and not ours . This understanding of NT Faith that saves coincides with the Vines Greek dictionary definition of Pisteuo .

2) There is no such thing as doubting in your belief of Him that would cause one to loose their Salvation .

" Doubting " is the fruit of the mistranslated word pisteuo into the NT . There is no word in the Greek for the English words believe , believer, and believing . The reason being the Greek language is as close to a perfect language the planet has . The Greeks simply did not acknowledge a state of being where one is only believing . They understand that a person is either moving closer to God "pisteuo" or they are moving away from God "Apisteuo". They do not acknowledge a nuetral state of being .

Now what makes it even more confusing , if you were to check what i'm telling you by Googling the english word "believe" to find the appropriate Greek word it would give you "pisteuo". The reason being is that the mistranslated word has been stamped back on the Greek word pisteuo so that the true meaning has been all but lost .

I know what i'm presenting to you is confusing . If you would ask some questions that come to mind i think i could explain it better.

 

[DAN P]

Hi .

This surrendering of our life to Him only starts the opportunity to ultimately recieve the Grace deposit which is the Holy Spirit.

Did i communicate this ok ?

Hi and a person is saved WHEN ??

You say a a continuing SURRENDER ?

What does that mean , if you do not do a CONTINUING SURRENDER ??

dan p

 

[Faither]

Hi and a person is saved WHEN ??

You say a a continuing SURRENDER ?

What does that mean , if you do not do a CONTINUING SURRENDER ??

dan p

Christ is formed in our hearts by Faith , "Faithing" ( a continual surrendering of ourselves to Him).

And thats only half of the definition of pisteuo used 248 times in the NT. The complete definition of pisteuo reads and i quote , "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender." (Vines )

Having been doing this for over 30 years and knowing what happens as the result , it's our daily decisions supporting the fact that our lives are His now and not ours , "a life inspired by such surrender .

So the application of Faithing "pisteuo' is two fold and continual . If we continue to surrender our lives to Him and make decisions supporting that surrender , that is "Pisteuo" moving towards God . If we do anything other than that, we are moving away from god , "Apisteuo."

This is how the relationship starts , is maintained , and completed until we wake up on the other side .

I realize most called out ones have tried to start their relationship with Christ on the mistranslated words believe , believer , and believing , i'm sorry for that . But don't shoot the messenger , be happy Christ has gotten this truth to you . Now there comes a responsibility with that knowledge.

If you want to ask more questions i think that would be a great way for me to expand on this Dan.

 

[DAN P]

Christ is formed in our hearts by Faith , "Faithing" ( a continual surrendering of ourselves to Him).

And thats only half of the definition of pisteuo used 248 times in the NT. The complete definition of pisteuo reads and i quote , "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender." (Vines )

Having been doing this for over 30 years and knowing what happens as the result , it's our daily decisions supporting the fact that our lives are His now and not ours , "a life inspired by such surrender .

So the application of Faithing "pisteuo' is two fold and continual . If we continue to surrender our lives to Him and make decisions supporting that surrender , that is "Pisteuo" moving towards God . If we do anything other than that, we are moving away from god , "Apisteuo."

This is how the relationship starts , is maintained , and completed until we wake up on the other side .

I realize most called out ones have tried to start their relationship with Christ on the mistranslated words believe , believer , and believing , i'm sorry for that . But don't shoot the messenger , be happy Christ has gotten this truth to you . Now there comes a responsibility with that knowledge.

If you want to ask more questions i think that would be a great way for me to expand on this Dan.

Hi and is there part of surrendering ?

Or is surrender , just one time surrender ?

And if a person quits surrendering , does that person , LOSE salvation ??

And is HOLINESS also LOST ??

Give verse where it is possible !!

dan p

 

[Faither]

Hi and is there part of surrendering ?

Or is surrender , just one time surrender ?

And if a person quits surrendering , does that person , LOSE salvation ??

And is HOLINESS also LOST ??

Give verse where it is possible !!

dan p

I've stated Faithing and or surrendering is continual . it starts , maintains , and completes the relationship here on earth.

The first surrender only starts the Salvation process or journey . This opportunity to start to faithe or surrender to Christ can only happen "if" we have been drawn by the Father to do so.

At the beginning stage of the Salvation journey we do not have been given the Grace deposit oor the Holy Spirit yet , so Christ and any of His Word or the promises there in are not ours yet. So you can't loose something you don't have.

There is alot to discuss if your willing , but if you don't understand what i'm presenting , lets stop and make sure were on the same page.

Are you sure you understand what true NT Faith and faithing are ? Faith and pistis are the noun , pisteuo is the verb and was mistranslated into the English because we have no verb form of Faith in the English language . The mistranslated words are believe , believer , and believing. The words we should have had for the translators are Faithe , faither , and faithing . Both the noun pistis and the verb pisteuo are used 248 times each.

The only verse that would apply to the very start of the Salvation journey would be Rom 8 :9 .

 

[oatmeal]

Hi oatmeal ,

Thanks for this topic. I've just come back here after being away for the last 6 months .

You asked , who is saved ? But your question is being more about "how' we are saved .

You provided Rom 10:9-10 to support an understanding . An understanding held by most of the church world today . The problem isn't with confessing with our mouths , but "believing in our hearts" thats the big stumbling block .

The words believe , believer , and believing are used 248 times in the NT. They translate the Greek word "pisteuo". Pisteuo is the verb form of the noun pistis , which is where our english word "Faith" comes from .

The problem is the English language has no word to translate pisteuo correctly. The words the English shold have had are faithe , faither , and faithing . Since those words were not available to the translators they used the words believe , believer , and believing .

With that said , the correct definition of "pisteuo" in the Vines Greek dictionary is "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender .

So Rom . 10:9-10 should read 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt continually surrender there lives to Him in thine heart and that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Theres a big difference between believing in thy heart and surrendering our lives to Him continually with every decision we make to support that surrender .

This surrendering of our life to Him only starts the opportunity to ultimately recieve the Grace deposit which is the Holy Spirit.

Did i communicate this ok ?

That definition you provide is useful.

I find that the word "believing" fits your definition.

If you are believing God's word, you are submitting yourself to God and His son.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

It says in Mark:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the Good News of God, and saying, 15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the Good News”.

This is what it boils down to, a person’s belief in the Good News, which is to believe Jesus is our Lord and Saviour in order for us to enter Heaven:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It’s our belief in Jesus that can save us but this is no guarantee we will receive the Holy Spirit:

Acts 19:2
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

If you wish to receive the Holy Spirit and deepen your relationship with Jesus and God the Father, thus ‘sealing’ your place in Heaven, you should also repent and be baptised:

Act 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent, and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, the three things we are commanded to do in order to receive the Holy Spirit are:

1. Believe in Jesus as our risen saviour.

2. Repent of our sins.

3. Get baptised.

After all, the first thing Jesus did in His ministry was to get baptised.

Therefore, Christians should do as He commanded by repenting of their sins and getting baptised in water, in the prayerful expectation of receiving the Holy Spirit:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water, and the Spirit”.

This is important because Christians can lose there faith:

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[Faither]

That definition you provide is useful.

I find that the word "believing" fits your definition.

If you are believing God's word, you are submitting yourself to God and His son.

Let me ask you this.

If "believing" Gods Word is the path to Salvation , what would those have done before Gods word was available to the masses around the 1500's ?

Gods Word can't be the object of Faith until we are accually His. Rom 8:9 The object of Faith and faithing is God Himself. Before the 1500th century it would have been hard for the Father to drawn someone to Christ through His Word , it wasn't available yet , at least not like today.

What would have always been available is the Father calling out someone to Christ , and that person responding not by "believing" alone , but by a complete and continual surrendering of their lives to Him.

Believing in Gods Word does not save anyone. Pisteuo or surrendering our lives to "God Himself" having that one on one secret relationship wit Him does. With or without His Word.

Gods Word and the promises there in only belong to those who have received the Grace deposit or the Holy Spirit . Rom 8:9 How do we recieve the Grace deposit ? Pisteuo = "A personal surrender to Him . and a life inspired by such surrender."

The mistranslation of Pisteuo has caused unbelievable damage .

 

[Faither]

Let me ask you this.

If "believing" Gods Word is the path to Salvation , what would those have done before Gods word was available to the masses around the 1500's ?

Gods Word can't be the object of Faith until we are accually His. Rom 8:9 The object of Faith and faithing is God Himself. Before the 1500th century it would have been hard for the Father to drawn someone to Christ through His Word , it wasn't available yet , at least not like today.

What would have always been available is the Father calling out someone to Christ , and that person responding not by "believing" alone , but by a complete and continual surrendering of their lives to Him.

Believing in Gods Word does not save anyone. Pisteuo or surrendering our lives to "God Himself" having that one on one secret relationship wit Him does. With or without His Word.

Gods Word and the promises there in only belong to those who have received the Grace deposit or the Holy Spirit . Rom 8:9 How do we recieve the Grace deposit ? Pisteuo = "A personal surrender to Him . and a life inspired by such surrender."

The mistranslation of Pisteuo has caused unbelievable damage .

Oatmeal if your willing lets start at the beginning of the Salvation process or journey and have a great discussion about it. I'll put my understandings on the table to be tested and if your comfortable you can do the same .

Here we are at the start of the Salvation journey. 1) The first thing that must happen is we must be called or drawn to Christ by the Father .

2) At this beginning stage we are described by Rom 8:9 , where we do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet.

Are you in agreement so far ?

 

[Faither]

It says in Mark:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the Good News of God, and saying, 15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the Good News”.

This is what it boils down to, a person’s belief in the Good News, which is to believe Jesus is our Lord and Saviour in order for us to enter Heaven:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It’s our belief in Jesus that can save us but this is no guarantee we will receive the Holy Spirit:

Acts 19:2
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

If you wish to receive the Holy Spirit and deepen your relationship with Jesus and God the Father, thus ‘sealing’ your place in Heaven, you should also repent and be baptised:

Act 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent, and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, the three things we are commanded to do in order to receive the Holy Spirit are:

1. Believe in Jesus as our risen saviour.

2. Repent of our sins.

3. Get baptised.

After all, the first thing Jesus did in His ministry was to get baptised.

Therefore, Christians should do as He commanded by repenting of their sins and getting baptised in water, in the prayerful expectation of receiving the Holy Spirit:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water, and the Spirit”.

This is important because Christians can lose there faith:

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Hi watchman , if your willing respond to my request on post #37 .

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Hi watchman , if your willing respond to my request on post #37 .

Yes I'm sort of willing, because although I have the answer it most likely will not be accepted and no one likes rejection. This is because is involves reincarnation and only about 10% of Christians believe in this so most will automatically reject any such idea. If you wish to know more just say the word or I'll be wasting both our time.

 

[DAN P]

I've stated Faithing and or surrendering is continual . it starts , maintains , and completes the relationship here on earth.

The first surrender only starts the Salvation process or journey . This opportunity to start to faithe or surrender to Christ can only happen "if" we have been drawn by the Father to do so.

At the beginning stage of the Salvation journey we do not have been given the Grace deposit oor the Holy Spirit yet , so Christ and any of His Word or the promises there in are not ours yet. So you can't loose something you don't have.

There is alot to discuss if your willing , but if you don't understand what i'm presenting , lets stop and make sure were on the same page.

Are you sure you understand what true NT Faith and faithing are ? Faith and pistis are the noun , pisteuo is the verb and was mistranslated into the English because we have no verb form of Faith in the English language . The mistranslated words are believe , believer , and believing. The words we should have had for the translators are Faithe , faither , and faithing . Both the noun pistis and the verb pisteuo are used 248 times each.

The only verse that would apply to the very start of the Salvation journey would be Rom 8 :9 .[/QUOTE



Hi and Rom 10:9 says , But IF should confess with your mouth (the ) Lord Jesus , and should believe in your heart that God rauised Him from ( the ) dead , you will be saved !!

#1 , All have to confess !!

#2 , Shall believe !!

#3 , That God raised Jesus from the dead !!

#4 Thou SHALL BE SAVED !!

#5 The first verb is THOU SHALL CONFESS is in the Greek AOTIST TENSE and ACTIVE VOICE a in the SUBJECTIVE MOOD !!

#6 The first verb is controlled by the SUBJECTIVE MOOD which means that not everyone will confess Jesus as LORD !!

No one can be saved as 1 Cor 12:3 says NO ONE IS ABLE TO SAY Lord Jesus EXCEPT BY Holy Spirit and it is done by the GIFT of Faith as written in Eph 2:8 !!

When anyone confesses that He is Lord , it means He is your Master and Lord and without the Holy Spirit NO ONE CAN BE SAVED !!

dan p