Who are the Elect?

[Robert Pate]

Confusion reigns with you.

The 12 were preaching "the gospel" to Israel for YEARS before that day of Pentecost.

The gospel of the grace of God was given to PAUL AFTER that day of Pentecost. Paul calls this gospel MY GOSPEL for a reason.

You are AGAIN stooping to LYING about what I said. I did NOT "say that is was nothing". Dishonesty will not win you any points.

The gospel of the KINGDOM ... YES!! They did!

Irrelevant to this discussion.

The BODY OF CHRIST (i.e., the church which is His body) is NOT "the new testament church".

The new covenant is all about God's relationship with Israel.

The gospel of the KINGDOM... not the gospel of the grace of God that they had to learn later from PAUL.

And yet those signs and miracles ceased as Israel, as a whole, refused to believe the gospel of the KINGDOM.

You LIE once again. Not very "Christian" of you.

You said that the body of Christ is not the New Testament church. What is the New Testament church if it is not the body of Christ? One of the definitions of a church is, "A congregation of believers". Really, really, strange statement.

The Kingdom Gospel is the good news that the King has arrived. Wherever Jesus is at there is his kingdom.

Yes, you did say that Pentecost was nothing, when it was actually one of the most astounding events in the New Testament. The disciples had no understanding of what Jesus had accomplished in his life, death and resurrection until the day of Pentecost. They thought that Jesus was going to over throw the Romans and establish his Kingdom there in Jerusalem, Acts 1:6. It appears to me that you have never read the book of Acts.

 

[Ktoyou]

The Kingdom Gospel is the good news that the King has arrived.

Divide that.

 

[Robert Pate]

There are not two Gospels that save and justify. There is one Gospel that came into the world in two different ways. The Gospel that came into the world on the day of Pentecost was for the Jews. The Gospel that was given to Paul was for the Gentiles. Both Gospels had basically the same message. The message was.... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13.

Calling on the Lord to save you is an act of faith. It is apparent that salvation was by grace through faith on the day of Pentecost, just like it was in the Gospel that Paul received. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, even in the Old Testament era. All that believed in God's promise of a savior were saved and justified by faith, Romans 4:3. The patriarchs and prophets knew of God's promise of a savior and looked forward to when he would arrive. Isaiah described him very well, Isaiah 53:1-12.

They looked forward to seeing their savior, we look back to when he was here. We are all justified by faith. The Pharisees did not believe in justification by faith, they believed that they would be justified by the law, this is why Jesus was at odds with them, Matthew chapter 23. When Paul wrote, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20. It was like signing a declaration of war. Justification by faith alone is still very controversial. We are justified by faith alone, because we are justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26.

 

[Right Divider]

You said that the body of Christ is not the New Testament church. What is the New Testament church if it is not the body of Christ?

Why do think that there is only your possibility?
The new covenant is ALL about God's relationship with Israel. The church in Jerusalem, which the TWELVE apostles were part of, was all about ISRAEL... that is why there are TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

One of the definitions of a church is, "A congregation of believers". Really, really, strange statement.

The word "church" has a number of meanings. ONE is the one that you give here.
When Paul uses the phrase "the church which is His body", he is referring to the body of Christ which is distinct from the Israelite new covenant church (which has TWELVE apostles for a reason).

The Kingdom Gospel is the good news that the King has arrived. Wherever Jesus is at there is his kingdom.

That is only PART of the gospel of the kingdom. It's not the "gospel of the KING"... it's the gospel of the KINGDOM. A kingdom includes a King, but there is much more than that.

Yes, you did say that Pentecost was nothing,

I did NOT say that!
STOP LYING Robert.
It's very UNChristan.
STOP LYING.

when it was actually one of the most astounding events in the New Testament.

In many ways, yes it was astounding. But you focus so much on your false narrative that you miss much of what happened before, during and after.

The disciples had no understanding of what Jesus had accomplished in his life, death and resurrection until the day of Pentecost.

You keep saying this, but it's FALSE.
You have provided NO argument whatsoever to support this claim.
You just keeping repeating the claim. Stop repeating your opinion and start supporting your claim.

They thought that Jesus was going to over throw the Romans and establish his Kingdom there in Jerusalem, Acts 1:6.

Note that Jesus did NOT correct their understanding. He simply told them is was about timing.
Jesus WILL overthrow ALL governments and establish His Kingdom there in Jerusalem.

It appears to me that you have never read the book of Acts.

Hilarious one again. It is YOU that is quite ignorant of the ENTIRE book of Acts. It seems like you think that it only has 4 chapters.

Again, do you not understand why Matthias replaced Judas in Acts 1?

 

[Right Divider]

There are not two Gospels that save and justify.

There are many different "gospels" in the Bible. Gospel simply means "good news".
The gospel of the grace of God was not revealed until it was given to the apostle Paul.

There is one Gospel that came into the world in two different ways.

This should be a fun fairy tale.

The Gospel that came into the world on the day of Pentecost was for the Jews.

Oh. really... What is the name of THIS gospel?
Where can I find the introduction of THIS gospel in the Bible?

The Gospel that was given to Paul was for the Gentiles. Both Gospels had basically the same message. The message was.... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13.

Which one of these gospels "saves and justifies"?

Calling on the Lord to save you is an act of faith.

Living by faith in not something that magically appeared in the book of Acts.

Hab 2:4 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:4) Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

It is apparent that salvation was by grace through faith on the day of Pentecost, just like it was in the Gospel that Paul received.

Instead of simply making declarations of what you believe... how about demonstrating it from the scripture?
If you think that the gospel that Paul uniquely received was already known, you are deceived.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith, even in the Old Testament era.

Yes, but it was not understood how God could forgive sins and be just in doing so.

All that believed in God's promise of a savior were saved and justified by faith, Romans 4:3.

Romans 4:3 is NOT about "God's promise of a savior". Read the SCRIPTURE about what God TOLD Abraham (i.e., what Abraham believed):

Gen 15:4-6 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:4) And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. (15:5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

The patriarchs and prophets knew of God's promise of a savior and looked forward to when he would arrive. Isaiah described him very well, Isaiah 53:1-12.

You, like most of Churchianity, are reading what we know NOW back into the scripture.
Also note that Isaiah is a LATE prophet.

They looked forward to seeing their savior, we look back to when he was here.

More fairy tale Churchianity. Stop repeating your OPINIONS and start making an ARGUMENT using some EVIDENCE and FACTS.

We are all justified by faith. The Pharisees did not believe in justification by faith, they believed that they would be justified by the law, this is why Jesus was at odds with them, Matthew chapter 23. When Paul wrote, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20. It was like signing a declaration of war. Justification by faith alone is still very controversial. We are justified by faith alone, because we are justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26.

Yes, this is true. But your "Pentecost" story is not.

P.S. These two cannot be identical:

Acts 3:21 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Rom 16:25-26 (AKJV/PCE)
(16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (16:26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[Robert Pate]

Pentecost is one of the most significant events in the New Testament.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit. This Gospel literally turned Jerusalem upside down. 8,000 Jews were immediately converted to Christ, tens of thousands followed. It was the Gospel that gave birth to the New Testament church. After Pentecost the apostles went everywhere preaching Jesus Christ. The book of Acts is called Acts because it is about the effect that the Gospel had on the apostles. Before Pentecost they were lowly disciples, probably hiding from the Pharisees that wanted to kill them, but when they heard the Gospel they became powerful preachers of the Gospel, Acts 4:13.

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf. When Jesus lived, we lived in him. All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are baptized into Christ. His life is our life, His death is our death, His resurrection is our resurrection, Romans 6:1-13. All that are trusting in Christ and his Gospel stand before God as justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. We are complete in him, Colossians 2:10. When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him.

Satan doesn't want you to hear the Gospel, because the Gospel is the doorway into heaven. In Jesus Christ we are justified, sanctified and redeemed, Corinthians 1:30. There is really no need for a religion. Religion is really an indication of the absence of faith. Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly. Beware of those that oppose the Gospel, there are many that don't believe the Gospel and will do anything to pervert it or discredit it, even deny that it came into the world on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Ktoyou]

The Gospel was the good news that God loved us enough to save us from ourselves.

 

[Right Divider]

Pentecost is one of the most significant events in the New Testament.

Pentecost was a LAWFULLY REQUIRED feast day for the nation of ISRAEL.

It is no more significant that God's choosing of Paul and and giving His gospel to Paul.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Which "gospel"? Please show US ALL from the SCRIPTURE exactly when and how this happened. Quit making baseless claims!

This Gospel literally turned Jerusalem upside down.

You are obsessed with your false narrative.

8,000 Jews were immediately converted to Christ, tens of thousands followed.

Why was it only Jews? Isn't the gospel of the grace of God for everyone without distinction of their human heritage.

It was the Gospel that gave birth to the New Testament church.

Again... stop giving OPINIONS and start making an ARGUMENT.

After Pentecost the apostles went everywhere preaching Jesus Christ.

Acts 11:19 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:19) ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

The book of Acts is called Acts because it is about the effect that the Gospel had on the apostles.

If you'd take the time to read the entire book of Acts, you'd find that it documents not ONLY the "day of Pentecost", but Israel's stubborn refusal to accept their kingdom and ends with their FALL.

Before Pentecost they were lowly disciples, probably hiding from the Pharisees that wanted to kill them, but when they heard the Gospel they became powerful preachers of the Gospel, Acts 4:13.

What about Acts 5-28?

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf. When Jesus lived, we lived in him. All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are baptized into Christ. His life is our life, His death is our death, His resurrection is our resurrection, Romans 6:1-13. All that are trusting in Christ and his Gospel stand before God as justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. We are complete in him, Colossians 2:10. When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him.

NOTE that you are quoting ONLY PAUL here. Paul came LATER.

Satan doesn't want you to hear the Gospel, because the Gospel is the doorway into heaven. In Jesus Christ we are justified, sanctified and redeemed, Corinthians 1:30. There is really no need for a religion. Religion is really an indication of the absence of faith. Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly. Beware of those that oppose the Gospel, there are many that don't believe the Gospel and will do anything to pervert it or discredit it, even deny that it came into the world on the day of Pentecost.

Poor, poor Robert... accusing those who TELL THE TRUTH of lying.

Stop being a dishonest poster here RP.

 

[Robert Pate]

What happened on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem over 2,000 years ago, was one of the most amazing and miraculous events in the history of the world. God was making it known to all that his Son Jesus Christ was the savior of the world and that by faith in him and his Gospel one could be born again and have eternal life. 8,000 Jews heard about the "Wonderful works of God" Acts 2:11 and became Christians. Those that were there on the day of Pentecost could not believe or understand what was happening. They all heard the Gospel in their own language, Acts 2:6-13. Some said, "These men are full of new wine" Acts 2:13. It was the Gospel that gave birth to the New Testament church. Nothing was the same after Pentecost.

R.D. said that, "Pentecost was nothing" I went back and tried to find where he said that, but it had been deleted. R.D also said that my narrative concerning Pentecost was false, post #25. This is very unfortunate that someone who professes to be a Christian can be so spiritually blind. J.R. seems to approve of everything that R.D. says.

I became a member of this Forum around 2010 and then I left because of all of the insults and name calling. I Joined Theology Forums and was there for about 2 years and just recently returned to TOL. I don't expect to be here very long. There used to be some very sound Christians on this Forum, but they are not here anymore. I think that I know why. It appears to me that this Forum is dying, I think that I know why.

 

[Right Divider]

What happened on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem over 2,000 years ago, was one of the most amazing and miraculous events in the history of the world. God was making it known to all that his Son Jesus Christ was the savior of the world and that by faith in him and his Gospel one could be born again and have eternal life. 8,000 Jews heard about the "Wonderful works of God" Acts 2:11 and became Christians. Those that were there on the day of Pentecost could not believe or understand what was happening. They all heard the Gospel in their own language, Acts 2:6-13. Some said, "These men are full of new wine" Acts 2:13. It was the Gospel that gave birth to the New Testament church. Nothing was the same after Pentecost.

You have YET to provide support for this claim.
You constantly give us your OPINION... but never an actual ARGUMENT with supporting EVIDENCE.

R.D. said that, "Pentecost was nothing"

Robert Pate is a habitual LIAR. I said NO SUCH THING.

I went back and tried to find where he said that, but it had been deleted.

You are LYING again Robert Pate...I have NOT deleted any posts in this thread.
Robert Pate is a HABITUAL LIAR.

R.D also said that my narrative concerning Pentecost was false, post #25.

That is correct... your narrative is FALSE and you continually LIE in your effort to NOT prove anything.

This is very unfortunate that someone who professes to be a Christian can be so spiritually blind.

RP is the BLIND ONE... stop LYING Robert.

J.R. seems to approve of everything that R.D. says.

That's because JR knows that I'm correct and that you are WRONG.

I became a member of this Forum around 2010 and then I left because of all of the insults and name calling.

It's NOT an insult to tell you that you are confused and incorrect.

I Joined Theology Forums and was there for about 2 years and just recently returned to TOL. I don't expect to be here very long. There used to be some very sound Christians on this Forum, but they are not here anymore. I think that I know why. It appears to me that this Forum is dying, I think that I know why.

People like Robert Pate are petty and shallow. They will NOT address any issues presented to them. They simply keep babbling on with their false stories.

• ADDRESS the ISSUES given to you.
• ANSWER the questions posed to you.
• PROVIDE some Biblical EVIDENCE of the CLAIMS that you make.

Instead of crying about your treatment, earn some respect by being HONEST for a change.

 

[JudgeRightly]

R.D. said that, "Pentecost was nothing"

Please quote him saying this, Robert.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I went back and tried to find where he said that, but it had been deleted.

There are no deleted posts in this thread. I would know because I'm able see posts that are deleted by the users.

 

[Robert Pate]

I no longer want to be associated with this Forum. Please take my name off of the membership list.

 

[Right Divider]

I no longer want to be associated with this Forum. Please take my name off of the membership list.

It's really too bad that you choose to leave as a documented liar.
An honest dialog with you would have been nice.

 

[Ktoyou]

Too bad Robert never learned anything

 

[Right Divider]

Too bad Robert never learned anything

I am always honestly sad when people will not engage, at all, in a discussion and then run off crying.
If they would actually listen to what others are saying and address the issues given to them, it would be good for everyone.

 

[Puppet]

I'm chosen!
Beats me how.
Now, it is the way it is.

 

[Puppet]

I don't think you should assert any person is not a Christian. I've never claimed that you're not a Christian. I think you are a poor theologian mainly because you refuse to listen to others. Try to learn from members here and if you do not think they understand scripture, then you are on the wrong forum.

If a person becomes a Christian on Jan 15th, 2035, then why not say he is saved and move on?
Some positive thinking doesn't really work.
Wishful thinking.
Only the unregenerate wants another person not to be saved so he or she can steal their heavenly treasures they want find in the bottomless pit.