ECT Which Gospel Preached During the Tribulation Period?

[Jacob]

Even though Adam corrupted the human race by his unbelief and disobedience, does not invalidate the Law. Even though it is impossible for totally depraved sinners to obey God's Law, God still holds them responsible to do so.

It is not impossible to obey God. The Bible says it is not too difficult. You are misapplying a verse in the new testament that says if you are guilty in one point you are guilty of all. Why the new covenant? Read it... because the old covenant (the law) was broken. Who broke it?? Not God, the people.

This is another reason to infer that a Covenant of Works was established, otherwise the Law could have been waived or altered.

Huh? What are you talking about? You aren't making any sense. The Law is established by your Covenant of Works? Where do you come up with this stuff?

But because the Law was established through a legal contract ("Covenant") it is permanent.

The Covenant of Works is as permanent as the Covenant of Grace that saves souls.

Jesus fulfilled the Law, that is all I need to know. This means we don't need the Covenant of Works or the Covenant of Grace... we can see the accomplishment of Christ for our salvation. "even to the point of death on a cross".

It was necessary that the old Covenant be fulfilled and satisfied before a new Covenant between man and God could be established.

Jesus Christ has performed both Covenants as Mediator on behalf of His spiritual children.

Amazing grace . . . and the core of the gospel message.

God has done for us what we could never have done for ourselves. To the eternal glory of His name!

Nang

I understand we can't keep your covenant of works. But, I also understand we were never expected to. Because of this: it is not Biblical. Obedience to God is Biblical, while you say it is not and impossible.

 

[Nang]

There is a new covenant. Have you read the passages in Jeremiah and Hebrews yet? There you will learn what it is. The words "Covenant of Grace" are not used.

Do you deny that these passages reveal the saving grace of God?

We are to obey God's commands even today, and it is not lawkeeping for salvation either.

Agreed.

Loving God; His statutes; and desiring to conform to the image of Christ, are all fruits of the Holy Spirit and His anointing.

All of which are also fulfillments of the promises from God of divine Redemption.

Promises = Covenant

Promises of life through obedience that were kept according to the last Adam's sinless performance of the entire Law of God, first established between God and the first Adam in the garden. Romans 5:15-21

Jesus Christ incarnated to be the perfect Man, that Adam was not.

Nang

 

[Nang]

It is not impossible to obey God.

Because of the fall of Adam and the corruption of the human race that resulted, it is impossible for any natural sinner to obey God . . . sinlessly and perfectly . . . which the Law of God demands. (Matt. 5:18)

Jesus fulfilled the Law, that is all I need to know. This means we don't need the Covenant of Works or the Covenant of Grace... we can see the accomplishment of Christ for our salvation.

Well, to copy the Open Theists, I would say that salvation reestablishes a "relationship" between God and man. That "relationship" is not only loving . . . it is also legal. For you understand, I am sure, that God cannot enter into relationship with darkness, sin, or evil beings.

I understand we can't keep your covenant of works. But, I also understand we were never expected to.

This is a very important point, that needs to be brought to the fore.

A Christian should never preach "grace" at the expense of "human responsibility" else the gospel message can go to one extreme or the other.

Antinomianism (no "law") or Legalism (all "law") are both radical and unorthodox teachings.

God has saved sinners by His gift of grace, through faith in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, who as Mediator, not only provided the grace, but also met all demanded human responsibility as revealed in the moral laws of God.

Obedience to God is Biblical, while you say it is not and impossible.

Well, I have given this a good shot . . . but it is becoming obvious you are ignoring much of what I post, for I have never said it is impossible for men to obey God. I have only said it is impossible for men to obey God under the old Covenant of Works, rather than obeying God from the new spiritual heart provided under the new Covenant of Grace.

I hate repeating myself this much, so if you have any interest at all in Covenant Theology, or simply desire to persist in your denials in order to prove me wrong . . . you can always search the Internet or simply Google the terms I have used.

For these theological terms are historical, and confessional to the Protestant faith.


:wave:

Nang

 

[Jacob]

Do you deny that these passages reveal the saving grace of God?

I don't deny these passages. How is God's grace otherwise not saving?

Agreed.

Loving God; His statutes; and desiring to conform to the image of Christ, are all fruits of the Holy Spirit and His anointing.

All of which are also fulfillments of the promises from God of divine Redemption.

Promises = Covenant

Promises of life through obedience that were kept according to the last Adam's sinless performance of the entire Law of God, first established between God and the first Adam in the garden. Romans 5:15-21

Jesus Christ incarnated to be the perfect Man, that Adam was not.

Nang

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Jacob]

Because of the fall of Adam and the corruption of the human race that resulted, it is impossible for any natural sinner to obey God . . . sinlessly and perfectly . . . which the Law of God demands. (Matt. 5:18)

No one is perfect.

Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Etc.

Well, to copy the Open Theists, I would say that salvation reestablishes a "relationship" between God and man. That "relationship" is not only loving . . . it is also legal. For you understand, I am sure, that God cannot enter into relationship with darkness, sin, or evil beings.

Sin separates man from his Creator, God.

This is a very important point, that needs to be brought to the fore.

A Christian should never preach "grace" at the expense of "human responsibility" else the gospel message can go to one extreme or the other.

That's not the problem I'm seeing. I'm seeing your grace only works if works work for you so that works don't work. The problem is, when works are talked about negatively (not by works, not justified by works of the law, turn from your dead works, etc.), we are talking about salvation according to the law (Phil 3:9). But good works are to be considered as well. Works do not equate to Adam. They are found in Israel by Moses, but then only (I believe) does a concept of works develop. That is, dead works are not a part of the covenant, or any covenant for that matter, between God and man.

Antinomianism (no "law") or Legalism (all "law") are both radical and unorthodox teachings.

But one could argue, since I have made this statement before as well, that you are being responsive (bad) as opposed to presenting truth originally from God. You force people to legalism with a Covenant of Works, then then tell them antinomianism never works with your Covenant of Grace. That there is more grace the more obedient you are perhaps? Or that grace is so you are obedient and not lawless but you don't need that rediculous instruction from God in Adam or the Law or any other covenant with God? So that people say "grace grace, all I want is grace". Then they know they stand in grace, whether they really do or not, and then they are opposed to any good works, which they could never really do anyway to begin with.

God has saved sinners by His gift of grace, through faith in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, who as Mediator, not only provided the grace, but also met all demanded human responsibility as revealed in the moral laws of God.

You make doctrine of "moral laws" and "human responsibility". With broad application. If you are going to speak of law, why not speak of the law? If you are going to speak of responsibility (response-able), why is obedience or God's commands taboo because of your Covenant of Works?

Well, I have given this a good shot . . . but it is becoming obvious you are ignoring much of what I post, for I have never said it is impossible for men to obey God. I have only said it is impossible for men to obey God under the old Covenant of Works,

But there isn't an old covenant of works. There never was.

rather than obeying God from the new spiritual heart provided under the new Covenant of Grace.

I have no problem with God's grace, but you make your covenant of grace dependant upon your straw man of a covenant of works.

I hate repeating myself this much, so if you have any interest at all in Covenant Theology,

I grew up a dispensationalist and left for many reasons. I considered covenant theology, but if this is covenant theology, I don't want any part of it. You make Biblical misunderstanding doctrine. Because Genesis to Malachi is labeled by so many as "old covenant", you insist Adam was a part of the old covenant, which is Biblically wrong (please quote the relevant passage from Jeremiah to show you understand).

or simply desire to persist in your denials in order to prove me wrong . . . you can always search the Internet or simply Google the terms I have used.

For these theological terms are historical, and confessional to the Protestant faith.

Guess what? I'm not a protestant, hold to no confession, deny much of what is seen as historical by the catholic church, and I'm a Christian.

:wave:

Nang

You don't need theological terms to read the Bible. You want to explain the Bible a particular way, a doctrinal way, without allowing people to read it for themselves. Why can't we accept what is in the Bible? Why do we have to accept your doctrine?

 

[john w]

Neither R.C. Sproul nor Pink are the "source" for my doctrine. I posted these quotes so that you cannot accuse me of dreaming stuff up.

Actually, my source for belief in a Covenant of Works is confessional for the doctrine is included in the Westminster Confession of Faith. (Chapter VII)

And I have posted repeatedly that there is not a single human being who can keep the Covenant of Works, except the Man, Jesus Christ. He fulfilled all the Law and performed all the Covenant in our stead.

Nang

"He fulfilled all the Law and performed all the Covenant in our stead."-Nang

= Vicarious Law keeping=salvation is based upon the Lord Jesus Christ's obedience in life, as well as His death, burial, and resurrection. The confused world of "Reformed Theology has the Lord Jesus Christ on the wrong side of the cross. Members of the body of Christ do not find our righteousness in the law/'"works,'' or in the Lord Jesus Christ's keeping the law-we find our righteousness only because we are in Him, the risen Christ-2 Cor. 5:21. Our righteous standing, "the righteousness of God," is due to the fact that we have been united to the risen Christ, by faith, and He has become our righteousness-1 Cor. 1:30.

Chuck your "Actually, my source for belief in a Covenant of Works is confessional for the doctrine is included in the Westminster Confession of Faith. (Chapter VII)."

 

[Zeke]

No, this is the common misunderstanding.

The Law condemned.

The revelation of the promise of the Kingdom of God (in whatever point of time) was a matter of grace!

Nang

Show me where Christ taught Ephesians 2:8 before the cross.

 

[godrulz]

Jude 1:21 (KJV)

Are you looking for mercy? Do you have eternal life?

Please compare with Eph 2:4-5 (KJV)

Jude 1; Jude 24-25 Jesus saves and keeps us.

Jude was warning against apostasy/apostates and urged (just as Paul did elsewhere) to give attention to ourselves/our faith lest we run in vain or shipwreck it. Participles are used to show that we are to keep building, praying, keeping, expecting. Pauline believers also walk in the Spirit vs flesh and eagerly await His return when we shall see Him and be fully like Him (I Jn. 3:2). This is not self-salvation or perseverance by one's own efforts (that would contradict other passages), but it is about walking in the Spirit/light, in fellowship with Him vs drowning in the ways and cares of the world. We are nurtured in His love by a relationship with Him based on grace/faith, not self-righteousness/works.

Exegesis, not MAD, resolves your supposed contradictions (apart from MAD, most don't see your contradictions within the NT, Pauline or not). The rapture is the culmination of His mercy and grace for us as He fully redeems us into His presence. Paul also talked about His coming as motivation to continue on vs cease the faith. When we see Him, we will be with Him forever in His presence. This is an expectation that impacts our walk with God in the here and now.

Similar Pauline principles can be found, so take off your legalistic glasses for non-Pauline writing (usually clearer in non-KJV).

 

[godrulz]

Show me where Christ taught Ephesians 2:8 before the cross.

Jn. 3:16 is not about works (cf. Jn. 6:28-29 Jesus corrects workS and emphasizes worK...He is full of grace and truth Jn. 1...Jn. 1:12 is the same as Rom. 6:23).

 

[godrulz]

The two passages say opposite things.

Why should you look for mercy and eternal life if you already have it?

I Jn. 5:11-13 non-Pauline...present tense...we have eternal life now because we have the Son (Jn. 3:16).

The passages do not contradict if you reject arbitrary MAD.

 

[godrulz]

Which verse are you looking at? Your words are unintelligible to me.

He is teaching MAD, not Scripture.

 

[godrulz]

Read Acts 15, and all of Galatians. It'll take you 15 minutes.

It does not teach MAD. Try F.F. Bruce instead of Stam or Bullinger.

 

[Jacob]

He is teaching MAD, not Scripture.

I'll hear what he has to say about it, but he isn't providing the scripture and has a theme to point out which mimics Biblical passages.

 

[beloved57]

sproul comments:

The original covenant between God and humankind was a covenant of works. In this covenant, God required perfect and total obedience to His rule. He promised eternal life as the blessing of obedience,

This cannot be True, for God promised Eternal Life to Christ and His seed in Him, before the world began.

Titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

That God entered into a subsequent covenant with men in Adam, and that perfet obedience to it would be rewarded with eternal life is inconsitency with the Eternal God and overthrows the everlasting Covenant centered in Christ Jesus and His blood.

 

[beloved57]

More scripture Truth emphasizing the Gospel of the Kingdom ! -

More scripture Truth emphasizing the Gospel of the Kingdom ! -

Jesus preached and taught that salvation was monotheistic[Of the One God], and not synergistic [God and Man]:

Matt 19:

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Notice, Jesus did not say with God and man all things are possible, but with God alone all things related to salvation is possible.

Salvation is totally out of the realm of mans control.

rom 9:

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This is Paul's version of what Jesus said in Matt 19:26

lk 1:

17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. cp eph 1:4

The word prepared is the greek word Kataskeuazo:

1. to furnish, equip, prepare, make ready
2. of one who makes anything ready for a person or thing
3. of builders, to construct, erect, with the included idea of adorning and equipping with all things necessary

The word also means ordain heb 9:6

But it is also in lk 1 17 in the perfect tense, meaning the preparing or ordaining took place once and for all in the past, with results into the present.

John Gill writes :

To make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

"The Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions read, "a perfect people"; and the Persic version, "all the people": not all the people of the Jews, but God's elect among them who from all eternity were "prepared", as a people in a covenant relation, as the portion of Christ, and as his spouse and bride, and as such, given to him; they were in electing grace, vessels of mercy, afore prepared for glory; and heaven, as a kingdom, was prepared for them from the foundation of the world: they were provided with all spiritual blessings, which were prepared for them, and bestowed on them in heavenly places, in Christ, before the foundation of the world; even all their grace, and all their glory; yea, even their good works are such, which God has foreordained, or fore prepared that they should walk in. Now, the work of John the Baptist, was "to make ready" this people, by pointing out to them, in a ministerial way, wherein their readiness lay, to meet the Lord, and be for ever with him in heaven; not in a civil, moral, or legal righteousness; or in outward humiliation for, and abstinence from sin; nor in a submission to Gospel ordinances, and in a mere profession of religion, and in an observance of a round of duties; but in justification by the righteousness of Christ, and in regeneration and sanctification, by his Spirit and grace; the one giving a right to, the other a meetness for the heavenly inheritance: and John; and so any other Gospel minister, may be said to make ready a people, in this sense; when they are the instruments of the regeneration and conversion of sinners, and of leading them to the righteousness of Christ, for their justification before God, and acceptance with him. "

I believe this is the right ideal, for this points back to a specific people who had been chosen in Christ from before the foundation eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

A people that shall hear these words Matt 25:

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In both instances where the word prepared is used in lk 1 17 and Matt 25:34 the word is in the perfect tense !

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

most don't see

Indeed.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I'll hear what he has to say about it, but he isn't providing the scripture and has a theme to point out which mimics Biblical passages.

I was trying to explain the gospel of uncircumcision to you.

Gal 2
7: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

And, where it came from

Gal 3
6: Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And, that it has very little to do with whether the hearers were circumcised or not.

1 Cor 7

18: Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


But rather that it is justification doctrine based on Abraham's justification BEFORE he was circumcised.


And, for godrulz, quit trying to discourage Untellectual from understanding my point. To this I say to you,

Acts 13
10: And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

 

[godrulz]

A verse about perverting the gospel should not be uses as a club in a dispensational view debate. Your MAD camp cannot even agree on the details. Denying MAD is not opposing the gospel (especially since we both affirm Paul, but I just reject your theoretical circ gospel that is not in existence after Paul anyway...moot point, not a salvific issue, so quit misapplying verses to fellow believers who reject STPisms).

 

[Zeke]

Jn. 3:16 is not about works (cf. Jn. 6:28-29 Jesus corrects workS and emphasizes worK...He is full of grace and truth Jn. 1...Jn. 1:12 is the same as Rom. 6:23).

The way He taught before the cross was under the OT, when ask what one must do to obtain eternal life He didn't mention the subsitutional work on the cross which was kept secret for reasons explained in 1Cor 2:7,8.
Instead He layed out the requirments of the law which He taught under, during the process of fulfilling it for those under its imputed sins Romans 15:8, John 17:4. Yet He had one more phase to fulfill which included the work on the cross, 2Cor 5:19.

 

[john w]

A verse about perverting the gospel should not be uses as a club in a dispensational view debate. Your MAD camp cannot even agree on the details. Denying MAD is not opposing the gospel (especially since we both affirm Paul, but I just reject your theoretical circ gospel that is not in existence after Paul anyway...moot point, not a salvific issue, so quit misapplying verses to fellow believers who reject STPisms).

Standard cliched, cotton candy response.