Where Does The Bible Say...? (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes All The Difference?

Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes All The Difference?

Originally posted by logos_x

You have turned baptism into a legalistic work that denies the very reason for that baptism.
Because of the remission of sins, accomplished in full by Jesus on the cross.
Baptism is our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and what He accomplished in it. We are not baptised to GET saved, we are baptised because we ARE saved.



Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The complete testament of Christ includes the works of Christ working through the body of Christ.


To make salvation contingent on baptism in water denies the doctrine of Christ, as though His work did not do anything except for those who get immersed in water. He died for the sins of the world. We get baptised when we believe that...not to appropriate it and make it so...but because it IS so, and we identify ourselves with that.
Baptismal regeneration doctrine is not what the Gospel says...in fact it turns it on it's head., enabling people to "own Jesus" more than others of like faith. Worse, because it has lead to the mistaken idea that all Christians need to do is compell people to be baptised...which lead to the forced baptism of Jews, etc.

Baptism is not a legalistic means to salvation. There isn't any legalistic means to salvation. The sooner you stop looking for one the better off you'll be.

This is my response to logos_x. Prior quotes have remained in order to assist understanding of the post.

logos_x says:

You have turned baptism into a legalistic work that denies the very reason for that baptism.

JustAChristian responds:
What is a “legalistic work?� What is you understanding baptism?

logos_x says:
Because of the remission of sins, accomplished in full by Jesus on the cross.

JustAChristian responds:
Now what does all that mean?

logos_x says:
Baptism is our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and what He accomplished in it.

JustAChristian responds:
And where does the Bible tell us that?

logos_x says
We are not baptised to GET saved, we are baptised because we ARE saved.

JustAChristian responds:
And where does the Bible tell us that?

quote:
and look for a path of miracles today in a church that has matured by the complete testament of Christ. When you deny the word of the Lord on these matters your deny God is more informative in salvation than you are. That us a dangerous area to be in.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


ogos_x says:
The complete testament of Christ includes the works of Christ working through the body of Christ.

JustAChristian responds:
I have no problems with this. The greater work that the church has done is to carry the gospel into all the world (Col. 1:23).

quote:
"Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.'"( 2 John 1:8-9).

logos_x says:
To make salvation contingent on baptism in water denies the doctrine of Christ,

JustAChristian responds:
Oh, really? Perhaps you could tell me how I have denied the doctrine of Christ. And while you are doing that would you give us an exegesis of Mark 16:16, Acts 2:28, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:27, and 1 Peter 3:21 which deal with the subject of baptism?

logos_x says:
as though His work did not do anything except for those who get immersed in water.

JustAChristian responds:
Who is the author of the gospel? Certainly not me. Where do I add to the message of Jesus Christ who gave us the command to be baptized?

logos_x says:
He died for the sins of the world. We get baptized when we believe that...not to appropriate it and make it so...but because it IS so, and we identify ourselves with that.

JustAChristian responds:
Then you say that you get SAVED while you are STILL FILTHY in your sins because baptism is God path of “washing away sins� in the blood of Christ? (Acts 22:16). We know that the whole of anything is the sum of its parts. Being born again consist of participating in the plan of salvation, the gospel (Romans 1:16). We are told that cleansing of sins comes when we obey, in form, the gospel(Romans 6:17). Since Paul says that cleansing only comes after obeying the form of burial of Christ in baptism, can you give us an clear and concise example of anyone in the New Testament that received forgiveness of sins prior to being immersed.

logos_x says:
Baptismal regeneration doctrine is not what the Gospel says

JustAChristian responds:
We are told to be born again “of water and of Spirit.� Give us an exegesis on that as well.

logos_x says:
...in fact it turns it on it's head., enabling people to "own Jesus" more than others of like faith.

JustAChristian responds:
Everyone has the same Bible, don’t they? Well, we have to consider the Mormons who have snuck another one in on us. But, doesn’t everyone have the same right to the same message of salvation (Col. 1:23). So what’s the problem?

logos_x says:
...Worse, because it has lead to the mistaken idea that all Christians need to do is compell people to be baptised...which lead to the forced baptism of Jews, etc.
Obedience to the gospel has always been the Will of God (Romans 1:16). The Gospel commands that we are to hear and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, to repent of sins, to confess Christ before man and to be baptized for the remission of sins. When we do these we can go our way rejoicing just as the Ethiopian eunuch: “And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.� (Acts 8:39).


logos_x says:
Baptism is not a legalistic means to salvation. There isn't any legalistic means to salvation. The sooner you stop looking for one the better off you'll be.

JustAChristian responds:
It has never been successfully refuted that baptism brings us into divine relation to God. Being a part of the process of adoption, it is called a birth(John 3:5). The baptized Christian bears the name into which he is baptized(Romans 2:24 James 2:7).

It is arresting that you should say, and I quote "To make salvation contingent on baptism in water denies the doctrine of Christ", when Peter, the Apostle said, and I quote, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21). Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ" (Gal 3:27). It is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)


JustAChristian :angel:

 

[logos_x]

Water baptism is symbolic of baptism in the Spirit and fire that Jesus baptises us with.
Beyond that...yes, be baptized.
Be baptised because of the remission of sin.
And be baptised in Jesus name.

Absolutely!

This is not a greiveous commandment. If you are saved.

But don't try to make it sound like that if someone isn't baptised they aren't saved. That is not what the apostles were saying, and we shouldn't either.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This explains the symbology of baptism. It is a picture of how salvation works. It isn't what makes it work.

 

[JustAChristian]

Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Originally posted by logos_x

Water baptism is symbolic of baptism in the Spirit and fire that Jesus baptises us with.
Beyond that...yes, be baptized.
Be baptised because of the remission of sin.
And be baptised in Jesus name.

Absolutely!

This is not a greiveous commandment. If you are saved.

But don't try to make it sound like that if someone isn't baptised they aren't saved. That is not what the apostles were saying, and we shouldn't either.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This explains the symbology of baptism. It is a picture of how salvation works. It isn't what makes it work.

logos_x says...
Water baptism is symbolic of baptism in the Spirit and fire that Jesus baptises us with.

JustAChristian replies...
Such a warped understanding of the scriptures. How can you come up with that conclusion? Jesus never intended to baptize everyone with the Holy Spirit. Was the Pharisees and Sadducee baptized with the Holy Spirit? Was the Roman soilders that cast lots for His garments baptized with the Holy Spirit? John said that Jesus would baptize all flesh. At that time all flesh consisted of two classes of people; the Jews and the Gentiles. Where is it said that any one other than the Apostles (representing the Jewish class) and the household of Cornelius (representing the Gentile class) ever baptized with the Holy Spirit? Why can't you see this?!!!

logos_x says...
Beyond that...yes, be baptized.

JustAChristian responds saying...
...But why? For the remission of sins.(Luke 3:3; Acts 2:38). No sins are remitted without immersion into the death of Christ (Romans 6:3-5). Until one obeys from the heart "that form of doctrine": Hear the scriptures that Paul wrote to the Romans..." But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:17-18 AV)

logos_x says..
Be baptised because of the remission of sin.

JustAChristian responds saying...
Absolutely, but that is not baptism with the Holy Spirit. Cornelius was commanded to be immersed after his household had been overwhelmed with the Spirit. Why, because only in immersions do we obey Christ's burial and the washing away of sins (Romans 6:18; Acts 22:16).

logos_x says..
And be baptized in Jesus name. Absolutely!

JustAChristian responds saying...
I assume you mean by His authority.

logos_x says..
This is not a grievous commandment. If you are saved.

JustAChristian answers saying...
There can not be any salvation while one is still in sins but one is still in sins until they are remitted and washed away, and they can not be remitted and washed away until one is immersed for the remission of sins.

logos_x says..
But don't try to make it sound like that if someone isn't baptised they aren't saved. That is not what the apostles were saying, and we shouldn't either.

JustAChristian says...
Show us clearly that this is not what the apostles were not saying. Did they not preach what Jesus commissioned (Mark 16:16) into all the world? (Col. 1:23) Doesn't Peter clearly say that baptism saves? (1 Peter 3:21). Read these verses!

logos_x says..
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This explains the symbology of baptism. It is a picture of how salvation works. It isn't what makes it work.

JustAChristian responds saying...

Did you read these verses closely? They disprove your premise completely. And by the way, "Symbology" is not a word but I understand what you are trying to say. Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3) It is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27) The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17), and goes on to say that they were then made FREE from sins (6:18). Again I say, It is remarkable that you should say that the ceremony of baptism in itself does not save us when Peter, the Apostle said, and I quote, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21).

JustAChristian :angel:

______________________________

The Bible says that baptism is the "answer of a good conscience before God". That is to say that in baptism, a person is appealing to God for a cleansed conscience and the answer comes from heaven cleansing the person of past sins. This is stated in Hebrews 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Jesus never intended to baptize everyone with the Holy Spirit.

Where do you get that idea?

Was the Pharisees and Sadducee baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Not unless they got saved.

Was the Roman soilders that cast lots for His garments baptized with the Holy Spirit?

We aren't told, but I would guess, "Yes." The reason being, he was given the same revelation that I was, by The Holy Ghost, that Jesus is The Son of God; and I like to think that God always finishes what He starts.

John said that Jesus would baptize all flesh.

Indeed, He will. That time has not yet come.

At that time all flesh consisted of two classes of people; the Jews and the Gentiles.

No, all flesh, upon whom The Holy Spirit will be poured upon, means all flesh. The mystery of God will be finished when this takes place.

Where is it said that any one other than the Apostles (representing the Jewish class) and the household of Cornelius (representing the Gentile class) ever baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Only The Father can baptize with The Holy Spirit.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Re: Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Ignore this entry.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Re: Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Originally posted by Aimiel

Where do you get that idea? Not unless they got saved.We aren't told, but I would guess, "Yes." The reason being, he was given the same revelation that I was, by The Holy Ghost, that Jesus is The Son of God; and I like to think that God always finishes what He starts.Indeed, He will. That time has not yet come.No, all flesh, upon whom The Holy Spirit will be poured upon, means all flesh. The mystery of God will be finished when this takes place.Only The Father can baptize with The Holy Spirit.

Where do you get that idea?

My New Testament shows only two cases of Holy Spirit baptism. The first case involved Jewish men called apostles of Christ and the second case involved a group of Gentiles called the household of Cornelius. Each situation is identified to be the same type of baptism. Since there are no other occasions of such we must conclude that "all flesh" included only these two groups, one Jewish and one Gentile. If you can find a similar third occasion exactly like these two events you have a case. Let me know if you find one.

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

The Most Misunderstood Person In The Bible!

The Most Misunderstood Person In The Bible!

Yes, we need to study the subject of the Holy Spirit again. The most misunderstood person in the Bible, I believe, is the Holy Spirit. First, I want you to understand for sure that the Holy Spirit is a person. He is not an "it" or a "thing", He is a person of Deity, and is called the Holy Ghost in the King James Version (Mt. 3:11), and "Spirit" in the first letter to Timothy (1 Tim 4:1). We see him called "the Spirit of God" in (1 Cor 6:11). Likewise he is called the "Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). Each name depicts a characteristic at the time expressed, and should not be construed to be different Spirits. The American Standard and other translations almost exclusively use the term "Spirit" instead of "Ghost" which I am told is an old English term for guest, as a guest we would have at our homes. The Holy Ghost would then be a guest within us as we are or become the temple of the Holy Ghost ( 1 Cor. 6:19)
.
As a Spirit person, he has the ability to do things that a person, as we know it, can do. Among these is the ability to know, "...even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11). He can know because He has a mind, "And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit..."( Rom. 8:27). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit did things as He wished. He had the ability to dispense various gifts as He willed" (1 Cor 12: 4-11). He has the characteristic of love (Rom. 15:30). The Bible says that " the Spirit speaketh expressly. He spoke on one occasion to Philip the evangelist (Act 8:29).He bears witness. Jesus, on one occasion said that "...he shall testify of me" (Jn.15:26). He has the ability to intercede in prayer for us, for the Bible says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself (himself; the better translation), maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom.26). Some hold that the Holy Spirit is but a force, but let me further assure you that He is not just a force, but a person that can be grieved (Eph 4:30). People try to deceive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:30). He can be blasphemed (Mk 3:29), and He may be insulted (Heb. 10:29). These are things which a force cannot do or receive.

The Bible speaks of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit,� and a lot of misunderstanding comes for a lack of proper study on this subject. John the Baptist, on an occasion addressed an audience saying "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Mt. 3:11) We see in the Bible, that the Apostles on the first Pentecost after Christ's resurrection, (Acts 2:1-4), and the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-47) were the only ones to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the agent in cleansing or salvation but the servant of God in effecting the work of God through the Word of God. Today, there is but one baptism, in water for the remission of sin for us to obey (Acts 2:38; 10: 47; Eph 4:4-5).

What do you know about “Fire Baptism?� One commenting of this subject says, ““Many learned commentators regard the expression "in fire" as a mere amplification of the spiritual baptism added to express the purging and purifying effects of that baptism, but the context forbids this, for, in Mt 3:10, casting the unfruitful trees into the fire represents the punishment of the wicked, and, in Mt 3:12 the burning of the chaff with fire does the same, and consequently the baptizing in fire of the intervening verse must, according to the force of the context have the same reference. True, the expression "he will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and with fire," does not separate the persons addressed into two parties, and, if the context is disregarded, might be understood as meaning that the same persons were to be baptized in both; yet the context must not be disregarded, and it clearly separates them.� (J.W. McGarvey).

JustAChristian

 

[Aimiel]

JaC, you Truly have a Form of Godliness, but Deny The Power Thereof

JaC, you Truly have a Form of Godliness, but Deny The Power Thereof

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Jesus said, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

There were many instances of people being baptized in The Holy Ghost in The Bible:

1. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

2. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

3. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

4. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

5. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

One time, The Bible mentions that people were filled with The Holy Ghost, even before they were water-baptized:

6. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

7. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

8. And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. ...And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

JustaChristian, you prohibit others from entering The Kingdom and you don't even enter in, yourself. That's hypocracy, in its worst form.

But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience

Why is it that you insist that the way into the holiest of all was made manifest, but is no longer manifest?

The Holy Spirit is not a 'subject' to be studied; He is The Gift of God's Presence, and Our God is An All-Consuming Fire. He is Who we are baptized with: Holy Fire.

 

[greatdivide46]

Re: Re: Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Re: Re: Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us...

Originally posted by JustAChristian

My New Testament shows only two cases of Holy Spirit baptism. The first case involved Jewish men called apostles of Christ and the second case involved a group of Gentiles called the household of Cornelius. Each situation is identified to be the same type of baptism. Since there are no other occasions of such we must conclude that "all flesh" included only these two groups, one Jewish and one Gentile. If you can find a similar third occasion exactly like these two events you have a case. Let me know if you find one.

JustAChristian

What about the Samaritans in Acts 8? And how about the disciples of John in Acts 19? Were these not also cases of Holy Spirit baptism? I really don't know, I'm just asking.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: JaC, you Truly have a Form of Godliness, but Deny The Power Thereof

Re: JaC, you Truly have a Form of Godliness, but Deny The Power Thereof

Originally posted by Aimiel

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Jesus said, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

There were many instances of people being baptized in The Holy Ghost in The Bible:

1. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

2. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

3. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

4. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

5. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

One time, The Bible mentions that people were filled with The Holy Ghost, even before they were water-baptized:

6. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

7. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

8. And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. ...And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

JustaChristian, you prohibit others from entering The Kingdom and you don't even enter in, yourself. That's hypocracy, in its worst form.

But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience

Why is it that you insist that the way into the holiest of all was made manifest, but is no longer manifest?

The Holy Spirit is not a 'subject' to be studied; He is The Gift of God's Presence, and Our God is An All-Consuming Fire. He is Who we are baptized with: Holy Fire.

Aimiel,

Don't you see this one point?...

Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?

Paul asked the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19 if they had received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes as an indwelling after one believes. They had not been baptized with the baptism of the New Covenant (Matthew 28:18-20). Paul and the other apostles could not lay hands on anyone who was not properly baptized (Acts 8:14-17). The laying on of hands of an apostles was essential to receive the power to speak with tongues and do other signs. Anyway, the tongues were natural languages as explained in Acts 2 not the esthetic utterances one hears in the Pentecostal camps. When you find a third baptism with the Holy Spirit (not a laying on of hands of the apostles for I know there were many of these instances) then come back to me to show me I need to repent of my stance.

In the mean time, I will be away for a week or so in the hospital having knee surgery so I will not be able to respond prior to the 1stof the Month of November or so.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Aimiel]

I'll tell you what, since you don't believe there is Baptism in The Holy Spirit, I'll just leave you in the dark, since that is what you have chosen.