Where Does The Bible Say...? (HOF thread)

[Aimiel]

The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Paul' s purpose here was to contrast the imperfect state of the church -- the period during which supernatural gifts were necessary for its instruction -- with the perfect state, when such means would no longer be needed.

If you believe that the Church is perfect, you should get out more.

The "perfect" which was to come is the perfect source of information in the mature church

No, it is perfection, and no less. We will be perfect in glorified bodies, when we have perfect knowledge of God, when we are able to see Him.

The verse has nothing to do with “perfect tongues� or anything about a language spoken before Babel.

It would seem that you're un-teachable.

Lets stick to facts and not assumptions. The law of Christ is the “perfect� law of liberty meaning it has no fallacies or failures.

What on earth leads you to that assumption?

It is the perfect guide for the church today.

Only because where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is Liberty. Without His Spirit, your type of 'knowledge' which is merely 'about' God, instead of Him, becomes merely religion.

Until it was complete in revelation, which happened with John receiving the Apocalypse of Jesus Christ at the Isle of Patmos about 98 A.D.

Much of that book, along with parts of Daniel, as well as others, are sealed parts of God's Mystery. When He reveals all of them, and declares His Mystery complete, then that which is Perfect will come.

After that there was no more revelation or prophesy to confirm with miracles.

Why do you assume that revelation or prophecy must be confirmed with miracles. Who told you that was what they were for?

Miracles died away with the deaths of the apostles who conveyed the gifts with there laying on of hands.

I guess you 'skimmed over' the part of The Bible where we're told that The Lord divides these gifts, severally, as He wills, not as the apostles lay hands, just like you seem to skim my replies to you.

Other Christians could not convey the gifts.

Why not? Because you believe that God had so much respect for the 12 apostles, that they were given 'special' anointing? Their anointing is available today. There are apostles today. There are prophets today. There are far more than 12 apostles named in The Bible. One of them was a woman.

Paul, who had the gift of knowledge, knew the gift were only for a short time and said, by revelation and inspirations: “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Again, prophecies have not yet ceased, neither have tongues; but you're beginning to make me wonder about knowledge (yours, anyway).

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

As I said, that which is Perfect is not yet come.

If you believe the gifts are needed mor than ever today then you don’t believe the Bible is all sufficient “for doctrine, for reproof, for correction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly furnished unto every good work (2 Tim. 3:16).

Liar. I believe that The Bible is Perfectly Profitable, and that we all ought to spend more time reading and meditating It; however, The Holy Ghost is The One Who was sent to teach us all things. He also was sent to show us things to come. I have had my life saved by Him countless times, and in many varied ways. The Lord would not be able to draw men unto Himself, unless His Spirit were in this world, convicting men of sin, righteousness and judgement.

What is the Bible unable to provide today that we need for knowledge and salvation?

Nothing. The Holy Spirit is able to give us The Lord's Will, after we are brought to Him, and ask Him for this Great Gift of His Presence inside of us.

The church is mature by the process of growth.

You call what you espouse, that The Holy Spirit cannot fill those whom He wishes to fill with His Presence 'growth?' I call it childish heresy. He is God. The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is Liberty. To believe that what you have read and learned is 'maturity' or 'growth' is laughable. He is alive. He is perfectly capable of doing as He wills, whether you believe in Him or not. You will never see Him, until you do believe, and I pray that you might change your mind, so that you can meet Him, before you come face-to-face with Him one day, and are asked, "Why did you persecute Me?" What are you afraid of? What do you have to hide?

Yes, it has made many mistakes, but Jesus said he would be with us until the end of the world (Matthew 28:20).

He is. He hasn't left us alone, He left us The Comforter. He has me in a very comfortable position, where I can see what my enemies are attempting, so that we can keep them out of my life. He also shares those things with me that which The Lord has prepared for me, in His Presence.

The Bible, properly interpreted, has made the church to grow in knowledge and faith.

No, it is still trying to learn to stand up on its hind legs. It has been beggarly and poor, lo these nearly 2,000 years, when God wants to give her all of her needs, according to His Riches in Glory.

Paul received the Holy Spirit at the hand of Christ as did the other apostles(Acts 2:4).

Not true. It was The Spirit of Christ Who met him. It is The Spirit of Christ Who spoke to Him upon the road to Damascus. That Same Spirit that is in me. On Straight St., Paul was not filled with The Holy Ghost by an apostle, nor by the 'Hand of Christ' as you presume. It was by a believer. The most powerful person on this earth. We are His Ambassadors to this place. We are to tell His Will and His Testimony to others. We are to officiate His Last Will and Testament. We are The Torchbearers, who carry His Presence to this dark and lost world, and who will, one day, kick down the very gates of hell.

 

[Lighthouse]

Aimiel-
Could you use a term, other than "Spirit-filled?" The Admins, and moderators of this board are filled with the Spirit. They are just evangelicals, and not charismatics. There is reason to believe that miracles are not as widespread as they were in the times of the early church, and Christ's ministry. And true miracles do not inspire faith. They may cause some to believe, but that is not faith, for it is based on empirical evidence. And without faith, the belief usually gives way to either denial, or hatred of God and His people.

*Well, with the exception of our good friend Nori.*

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Could you use a term, other than "Spirit-filled?" The Admins, and moderators of this board are filled with the Spirit.

You could do so if you want, but it wouldn't be Scriptural. In The Bible, the 'evidence' of Holy Spirit Baptism is described as speaking in tongues. Besides Nori, do you know of any of the admins who do so? I don't.

There is reason to believe that miracles are not as widespread as they were in the times of the early church, and Christ's ministry.

I would tend to agree, though the ministry of The Holy Spirit is not about miracles, only. He is completing His Mission Perfectly.

And true miracles do not inspire faith.

I would have to argue with that. I would say that it is a false sign or lying wonder, if faith is not increased, because that's just the way that God does things.

They may cause some to believe, but that is not faith, for it is based on empirical evidence. And without faith, the belief usually gives way to either denial, or hatred of God and His people.

I believe that God knows how to get the most faith (and mileage) out of His Miracle-Working Power. I also believe that in these last days, that His Desire for people to be saved, as we come to the time for the wedding, will cause Him to use whatever means necessary to compel people to come in to His Presence; and if that means they will only believe upon Him if they see a miracle, then miracle they shall see. That is what I believe. We're sent, and He sets the priorities, as well as performs the miracles, in our midst.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

Re: The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

Originally posted by Aimiel

If you believe that the Church is perfect, you should get out more.No, it is perfection, and no less. We will be perfect in glorified bodies, when we have perfect knowledge of God, when we are able to see Him. It would seem that you're un-teachable. What on earth leads you to that assumption?Only because where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is Liberty. Without His Spirit, your type of 'knowledge' which is merely 'about' God, instead of Him, becomes merely religion.Much of that book, along with parts of Daniel, as well as others, are sealed parts of God's Mystery. When He reveals all of them, and declares His Mystery complete, then that which is Perfect will come.Why do you assume that revelation or prophecy must be confirmed with miracles. Who told you that was what they were for?I guess you 'skimmed over' the part of The Bible where we're told that The Lord divides these gifts, severally, as He wills, not as the apostles lay hands, just like you seem to skim my replies to you.Why not? Because you believe that God had so much respect for the 12 apostles, that they were given 'special' anointing? Their anointing is available today. There are apostles today. There are prophets today. There are far more than 12 apostles named in The Bible. One of them was a woman.Again, prophecies have not yet ceased, neither have tongues; but you're beginning to make me wonder about knowledge (yours, anyway).As I said, that which is Perfect is not yet come.Liar. I believe that The Bible is Perfectly Profitable, and that we all ought to spend more time reading and meditating It; however, The Holy Ghost is The One Who was sent to teach us all things. He also was sent to show us things to come. I have had my life saved by Him countless times, and in many varied ways. The Lord would not be able to draw men unto Himself, unless His Spirit were in this world, convicting men of sin, righteousness and judgement. Nothing. The Holy Spirit is able to give us The Lord's Will, after we are brought to Him, and ask Him for this Great Gift of His Presence inside of us.You call what you espouse, that The Holy Spirit cannot fill those whom He wishes to fill with His Presence 'growth?' I call it childish heresy. He is God. The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is Liberty. To believe that what you have read and learned is 'maturity' or 'growth' is laughable. He is alive. He is perfectly capable of doing as He wills, whether you believe in Him or not. You will never see Him, until you do believe, and I pray that you might change your mind, so that you can meet Him, before you come face-to-face with Him one day, and are asked, "Why did you persecute Me?" What are you afraid of? What do you have to hide?He is. He hasn't left us alone, He left us The Comforter. He has me in a very comfortable position, where I can see what my enemies are attempting, so that we can keep them out of my life. He also shares those things with me that which The Lord has prepared for me, in His Presence.No, it is still trying to learn to stand up on its hind legs. It has been beggarly and poor, lo these nearly 2,000 years, when God wants to give her all of her needs, according to His Riches in Glory.Not true. It was The Spirit of Christ Who met him. It is The Spirit of Christ Who spoke to Him upon the road to Damascus. That Same Spirit that is in me. On Straight St., Paul was not filled with The Holy Ghost by an apostle, nor by the 'Hand of Christ' as you presume. It was by a believer. The most powerful person on this earth. We are His Ambassadors to this place. We are to tell His Will and His Testimony to others. We are to officiate His Last Will and Testament. We are The Torchbearers, who carry His Presence to this dark and lost world, and who will, one day, kick down the very gates of hell.

Originally posted by JustAChristian

JAC: Paul' s purpose here was to contrast the imperfect state of the church -- the period during which supernatural gifts were necessary for its instruction -- with the perfect state, when such means would no longer be needed.
Aimiel states: If you believe that the Church is perfect, you should get out more.

JustAChristian responds: The church is perfect in the sense of having the complete revelation of Jesus Christ and every doctrine intended for its preservation. The Holy Spirit empowered the apostles to deliver the perfect truth of God and confirmed that truth with signs and miracles (Mark 16:20). Once revelation is proven true by signs and miracles it was not necessary to continue to confirm it. Once truth is established it remains truth.

JAC quote:
The "perfect" which was to come is the perfect source of information in the mature church

Aimiel states: No, it is perfection, and no less. We will be perfect in glorified bodies, when we have perfect knowledge of God, when we are able to see Him.

JustAChristian responds: I will post an extended answer on “perfect� as a next entry when I have posted this reply. Look for it in “Quick Reply.�

JAC quote:
The verse has nothing to do with ““perfect tongues�� or anything about a language spoken before Babel.

Aimiel states: It would seem that you're un-teachable.

JustAChristian responds: The Bible is not a mystery as so many want to teach and believe. God would not be just to give us a mystery and demand obedience to it at the same time leaving us to guess at it’s meaning.

JAC quote:
Lets stick to facts and not assumptions. The law of Christ is the ““perfect�� law of liberty meaning it has no fallacies or failures.

Aimiel states: What on earth leads you to that assumption?

JustAChristian responds: Understand the facts lead to only one conclusion. Do you believe Christ’s law has errors? Do you not believe it is complete?

JAC quote:
It is the perfect guide for the church today.

Aimiel states: Only because where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is Liberty. Without His Spirit, your type of 'knowledge' which is merely 'about' God, instead of Him, becomes merely religion.
JustAChristian responds: We do not need further revelation, as the Mormons and others teach, in order to be able to worship “in Spirit and in truth.� The Bible is complete and has been confirmed with signs and miracles. Once confirmed it needs no further confirmation.

JAC quote:
Until it was complete in revelation, which happened with John receiving the Apocalypse of Jesus Christ at the Isle of Patmos about 98 A.D.

Aimiel states: Much of that book, along with parts of Daniel, as well as others, are sealed parts of God's Mystery. When He reveals all of them, and declares His Mystery complete, then that which is Perfect will come.

JustAChristian responds: Yes, even Peter said there were parts of Paul’s writings which were hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16). However, proper study and interpretation goes a long way in knowing what is meant. Do you need some help in Daniel as well as others?

JAC quote:
After that there was no more revelation or prophesy to confirm with miracles.

Aimiel states: Why do you assume that revelation or prophecy must be confirmed with miracles. Who told you that was what they were for?


JustAChristian responds: Guess I read it in Mark 16:20?

JAC quote:
Miracles died away with the deaths of the apostles who conveyed the gifts with there laying on of hands.

Aimiel states: I guess you 'skimmed over' the part of The Bible where we're told that The Lord divides these gifts, severally, as He wills, not as the apostles lay hands, just like you seem to skim my replies to you.

JustAChristian responds: I’m just reading what the Bible says – reference is given to Acts 8:14-17 and Acts 19:1. By the way, it say the Holy Spirit divided severally as He will not the Lord (1 Cor. 12:11). However, I do find in Hebrews: “God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will? (Hebrews 2:4)


JAC quote:
Other Christians could not convey the gifts.

Aimiel states: Why not? Because you believe that God had so much respect for the 12 apostles, that they were given 'special' anointing? Their anointing is available today. There are apostles today. There are prophets today. There are far more than 12 apostles named in The Bible. One of them was a woman.

JustAChristian responds: I see where Peter speaks of specific qualification of succession of apostles after Judas Iscariot transgressed. This is seen in Acts chapter 1: “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.� (Acts 1:20-23) You will see specifically: “Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.� This is the only record and selection of succession. No women apostles here, and no mention of future succession by men or women apostles. Paul said he was an apostle born out of due time (1 Cor. 15:8), meaning his manner of being appointed an apostles was not like those in the beginning yet was approved of God for it was done by Christ. Appoints of other apostles, such as James in (Gal. 1:19) as some contend is perhaps too spurious to identify.

JAC quote:
Paul, who had the gift of knowledge, knew the gift were only for a short time and said, by revelation and inspirations: ““Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Aimiel states: Again, prophecies have not yet ceased, neither have tongues; but you're beginning to make me wonder about knowledge (yours, anyway).

JustAChristian responds: A lot of comedy but no proof text. Search out my proofs that I have given you.

JAC quote:
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Aimiel states: As I said, that which is Perfect is not yet come.

JustAChristian responds: Only in your mind. Check my article in the Quick Reply for an answer on this.

JAC quote:
If you believe the gifts are needed mor than ever today then you don’’t believe the Bible is all sufficient ““for doctrine, for reproof, for correction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly furnished unto every good work (2 Tim. 3:16).

Aimiel states: Liar. I believe that The Bible is Perfectly Profitable, and that we all ought to spend more time reading and meditating It; however, The Holy Ghost is The One Who was sent to teach us all things. He also was sent to show us things to come. I have had my life saved by Him countless times, and in many varied ways. The Lord would not be able to draw men unto Himself, unless His Spirit were in this world, convicting men of sin, righteousness and judgement.

JustAChristian responds: You call me a liar, but you can not prove that I am lying. How then can you call me a liar? Let me ask you, can’t the Bible teach us all things now that it is complete (perfect)? Can we not see things to come through reading the complete revelation of God the Bible? How can you be sure that the Holy Spirit did the saving? Was that an assignment from Christ to cause people to be saved from harm? Is not the word complete and able to convict men of sin not that the Holy Spirit has guided the inspiration of the written word? What can the Spirit do today that the Bible can not also do?

JAC quote:
What is the Bible unable to provide today that we need for knowledge and salvation?

Aimiel states: Nothing. The Holy Spirit is able to give us The Lord's Will, after we are brought to Him, and ask Him for this Great Gift of His Presence inside of us.

JustAChristian responds: Is not the Bible the complete Will of God? Will not the Holy Spirit automatically indwell all saved ? (Acts 2:38; Rom 8:9).

JAC quote:
The church is mature by the process of growth.

Aimiel states: You call what you espouse, that The Holy Spirit cannot fill those whom He wishes to fill with His Presence 'growth?' I call it childish heresy. He is God. The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is Liberty. To believe that what you have read and learned is 'maturity' or 'growth' is laughable. He is alive. He is perfectly capable of doing as He wills, whether you believe in Him or not. You will never see Him, until you do believe, and I pray that you might change your mind, so that you can meet Him, before you come face-to-face with Him one day, and are asked, "Why did you persecute Me?" What are you afraid of? What do you have to hide?

JustAChristian responds: Yes, we are told to “be filled with the Spirit� but how is that done? Jesus said, “the words I have spoken they are spirit and they are life� (John 6:63). A Christian takes in the word into his or her heart and is then filled daily with the Spirit. The Spirit does not act independently of the written word.

JAC quote:
Yes, it has made many mistakes, but Jesus said he would be with us until the end of the world (Matthew 28:20).

Aimiel states: He is. He hasn't left us alone, He left us The Comforter. He has me in a very comfortable position, where I can see what my enemies are attempting, so that we can keep them out of my life. He also shares those things with me that which The Lord has prepared for me, in His Presence.

JustAChristian responds: The Comforter had a task, and we know it. Tasks become completed when the requirements are accomplished. The Comforter completed His task when He guided the apostles and prophets in writing the infallible Word the Bible. Today, His work in that realm is finished.

JAC quote:
The Bible, properly interpreted, has made the church to grow in knowledge and faith.

Aimiel states: No, it is still trying to learn to stand up on its hind legs. It has been beggarly and poor, lo these nearly 2,000 years, when God wants to give her all of her needs, according to His Riches in Glory.

JustAChristian responds: Men make mistakes in matters of judgement and willfully misinterpret the Bible for their own interest. This is what has made denominations over the years. The church that follows the New Testament without including doctrines and commandments of men will be a complete church and will be well pleasing with Christ. The Holy Spirit has finished His work.

JAC quote:
Paul received the Holy Spirit at the hand of Christ as did the other apostles(Acts 2:4).

Aimiel states: Not true. It was The Spirit of Christ Who met him. It is The Spirit of Christ Who spoke to Him upon the road to Damascus. That Same Spirit that is in me. On Straight St., Paul was not filled with The Holy Ghost by an apostle, nor by the 'Hand of Christ' as you presume. It was by a believer. The most powerful person on this earth. We are His Ambassadors to this place. We are to tell His Will and His Testimony to others. We are to officiate His Last Will and Testament. We are The Torchbearers, who carry His Presence to this dark and lost world, and who will, one day, kick down the very gates of hell.

JustAChristian responds: You need to go back and do some more reading on this. The voice that Saul heard said. “ “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. (Acts 9:5). In laying hands on Saul to restore his eyesight, Ananias imitated the example of Jesus, who wrought similar miracles, at one time by touching the eyes of the blind (Matt. 9:29), and at another by putting clay on them and directing that it be washed away (John 9:6).

It is quite common to assume that Ananias also conferred the Holy Spirit upon him, by imposition of hands. But this is neither stated nor implied in the text; nor is there any evidence that any besides the apostles ever exercised the power of imparting the Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was never imparted to one not yet baptized. Cornelius and his household received a baptismal measure but not an indwelling which is different.

The fact that this power is not known to have been exercised by any other than the apostles, establishes a strong presumption that it was not exercised by Ananias. This presumption, in the entire absence of proof to the contrary, would alone be conclusive. We do not forget that Ananias says, "Jesus has sent me that you may be filled with the Holy Spirit." This shows that his reception of the Spirit in some way depended upon the presence of Ananias, but does not imply that he received it by imposition of hands. All the other apostles received it direct from heaven, without human agency (Acts 2:1-4). They also received it after they had been immersed; for the fact that Jesus preached the immersion of John, and caused the twelve to administer it under his eye, is proof that they themselves had submitted to it. As I have pointed out, in every other case in the New Testament, with the single exception of Cornelius (Acts 10:1-48), the manifestation of miraculous power followed immersion. These facts furnish a firm basis for the conclusion that Saul's inspiration was awaiting his immersion; and that it depended upon the visit of Ananias, because he was sent to immerse him that he might receive pardon and be filled with the Holy Spirit. To conclude otherwise would be to make his case an exception to that of all the other apostles in reference to manner of receiving the Spirit, and to nearly all other disciples, including the apostles, in reference to the time of receiving it.


In Christ,
JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

What does "that which is perfect" in 1 Cor. 13:10 mean?

What does "that which is perfect" in 1 Cor. 13:10 mean?

There are several interpretations of 1 Cor. 13:10. The most common of these interpretations is that one of the “perfects� must be talking of Christ at His second coming and another says perfect must be talking of heaven for only there will we be perfect. Occasionally we see other wrong interpretations such as “We will be perfect in glorified bodies, when we have perfect knowledge of God, when we are able to see Him� an interpretation I am presently presented for refutation. I believe the perfect spoken about talks about scripture, and I want to develop why I believe it is so.

The Greek dictionaries or lexicons say the original word, “telos�, does not mean “flawless� such as Jesus was flawless but “having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect� (Arndt & Gingrich). Robinson, Liddell and Scott, Abbott and Smith, Berry, Vine, and Vincent all say the same. Wuest says, “In 1 Cor. 13:10 the word means complete and is contrasted to that which is incomplete.� So we begin to lose the idea of “flawless� and begin to get in mind something which is complete. Net only that, complete at the end of a process. Vine says it “signifies having reached its end (telos), finished, complete, perfect.� Thayer says, “Brought to its end, finished.� This all harmonizes with the idea that “perfect� speaks of Scripture. Scripture is the final result of a process of inspiration and writing. First the word of God is in man. As they write it down it is in men and their writings. Then it is, after they die, in their writings alone. Let me refer you to 1 Cor. 2:9-13; I Thess. 2:13; 1 Cor. 14:37; and 2 Peter 1:19-21 for additional study.

How do we understand the English translation of the word “perfect?� It is from the Latin “per’ (thoroughly) and “ficere� (fact, to make). “Per� means through and “fact� means deed. So perfect means “through the deed.� So the idea is that of process, a process involved in finishing the deed or act – a completion. But the second most common meaning of perfect today is “flawless.� That was not is original meaning. The word originally meant “completion.� Like most words it has evolved in meaning. Tyndale, in the 1500's was the first to use the word “parfit� or “perfit.� It then entered into the King James Version of the Bible in 16111. But at that time it was a good choice, for “perfect� then meant “complete.� So originally perfect was a clear translation. But when the word evolved to also have the meaning of “flawless,� and that became a common meaning, we can see how some could wrongly suppose “perfect� referred to “heaven.� where there would be “glorified bodies.� Or we can see how “perfect� would make them think of Jesus, since He was the only perfect man. But they wrongly attach “flawless’ to the word instead of the idea of “complete.�

Looking at “perfect� in the context of 1 Cor. 13:10, we find the whole crux and core of the matter. There is an obvious contrast between “the part� and the “complete.� E have the partial on one hand and the complete on the other. We are led to believe that the contrasted things have the same characteristics, or nature, or material make-up. As we look carefully at the context, we learn that the part is revelation. It consists of prophecy, tongue speaking, and inspired knowledge. If thst is the “part� then the “perfect,� the “complete,� must be more of the same, only complete revelation. If the “part� is revelation, the complete must be complete revelation, the Scriptures, which we know today is the Bible. It must be understood eventuall that one day the Scripture with all the confirmatory signs written in it was complete and in circulation. The partial was done away. Tongue speaking, miracles, and prophecy were, as are all miraculous spiritual gifts, done away. The partial finally added up to the complete.

This contextual explanation of the passage fits the immediate context, the definition of the Greek word “Telos,� the English translation “perfect,� (2 Tim. 3:16, Acts 8:18, and the rest of the New Testament. The partial finally added up to the complete. Do we conclude that “complete� would cause us to have “glorified bodies?� No, because that is not the work of the Word to cause literal glorified bodies.

As grand a gift from God as they were, miraculous spiritual gifts were “childish� compared to the complete revelation, where revelation is full grown. They, the gifts, where like trying to look in a mirror which was dark. The Bible is like seeing face to face. In verse 8 Paul said they would be done away. Verse 10 shows they were done away when the complete revelation in the Bible, even with all is confirmatory signs written in it, came from God through chosen apostles and prophets.

JustAChristian

 

[Aimiel]

The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

Originally posted by JustAChristian

The church is perfect in the sense of having the complete revelation of Jesus Christ and every doctrine intended for its preservation.

What, then, has happened to His Doctrine of His Body receiving The Holy Spirit? Do you believe that He wanted to give The Holy Spirit only to take Him back?

The Holy Spirit empowered the apostles to deliver the perfect truth of God and confirmed that truth with signs and miracles (Mark 16:20).

Again, as I said, that is 'part' of His Ministry.

The verse has nothing to do with ““perfect tongues�� or anything about a language spoken before Babel.

I'm speaking of the ultimate 'perfection' of the human tongue, that of having our languages restored, to the original. How could that be more perfect?

The Bible is not a mystery as so many want to teach and believe.

Then would you please explain the passages of Daniel, which God has obscured? ... and those of Revelation? ... and Ezekiel?

God would not be just to give us a mystery and demand obedience to it at the same time leaving us to guess at it’s meaning.

You may sit in judgement upon The Lord, if you so presume. I don't wish to make that mistake. He said that when The Mystery of God were finished, not that it was already finished.

We do not need further revelation, as the Mormons and others teach, in order to be able to worship “in Spirit and in truth.�

I didn't say that we did. God does want to reveal things to us, though. He wants to teach us all things, and to show us things to come.

The Bible is complete and has been confirmed with signs and miracles.

Yes, with many happening right before your very eyes, more to come, and His Word will be confirmed even more.

Yes, even Peter said there were parts of Paul’s writings which were hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16).

There are also many things that are hidden, which can only be revealed by The Spirit of The Lord, and many more of these revelations yet to come.

However, proper study and interpretation goes a long way in knowing what is meant.

I'd rather know The Spirit of God, personally, than have all the theories men like yourself have come up with, from the darkness of never having met Him.

By the way, it say the Holy Spirit divided severally as He will not the Lord (1 Cor. 12:11).

The Lord is That Spirit.

However, I do find in Hebrews: “God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will? (Hebrews 2:4)

You're catching on.

No women apostles here, and no mention of future succession by men or women apostles.

Maybe you haven't read, "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." Junia is a feminine name, and she is 'of note' among the apostles. Not of note to them, but among. Also, when He set 'in' The Church (which, by the way, is eternal) His Gifts (the five-fold ministry gifts: apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher), did He set time-limits on all five, or just the two that scare you, because you can't approach faith enough to believe God for that type of anointing upon yourself? Is there something that you're 'holding back' from God, that you're afraid to lose, if there should be such a thing as Holy Ghost Baptism, or current-day Apostles or Prophets?

You call me a liar, but you can not prove that I am lying. How then can you call me a liar?

Because I fellowship with The Truth.

Let me ask you, can’t the Bible teach us all things now that it is complete (perfect)?

The Bible can't teach a single soul. You have to read, submit your heart to The Lord, and He reveals The Truth to you. If that doesn't take place, then what is inside you is only darkness.

Can we not see things to come through reading the complete revelation of God the Bible?

Nope. You will be given the 'big picture,' but what He meant by 'things to come,' was that The Holy Ghost can show you when and how to avoid the pitfalls of life, and to do His Will.

How can you be sure that the Holy Spirit did the saving?

Because, if it were the enemy, he would have simply let me die. The thief comes not, but to kill, steal and destroy. I thought you claimed to know The Scriptures.

Was that an assignment from Christ to cause people to be saved from harm?

Yes. He loves us, and will never leave us, or forsake us.

Is not the word complete and able to convict men of sin not that the Holy Spirit has guided the inspiration of the written word?

You speak of The Word of God as if it has power which can only be attributed to The Spirit of The Lord. He is The One Who convicts, not words. The Spirit quickens, not men's conscinces.

What can the Spirit do today that the Bible can not also do?

He can speak. The Word of God has to be read. He can tell us what God is saying today. What He wants us to do today. What The Word of God means, truly. He reveals all Truth, as The Lord Wills.

Is not the Bible the complete Will of God?

Jesus, in just a few years of ministry, was said to have done more than all the books in the world could have contained, were these deeds written down. Don't you realize that The Spirit of The Lord, Who is able to be with (and 'in' if they'll invite Him in) believers on every corner of this planet, in orbit or on other celestial bodies, all at the same time, is able to not only reveal The 'General' Will of God, which The Word of God teaches (with His Help), but also able to reveal The Specific (for each and every believer) Will of God, which varies for each and every believer? Are all Apostles? Are all Prophets? He reveals to each, who they are, what (if any) their ministry calling is; and what His Will is for their lives and for their progeny.

Will not the Holy Spirit automatically indwell all saved ?

No. If He did, all would be filled. Obviously they are not.

Yes, we are told to “be filled with the Spirit� but how is that done?

By The Spirit of The Lord, and not by any formula or knowledge.

Jesus said, “the words I have spoken they are spirit and they are life� (John 6:63).

Only to those that find Them.

A Christian takes in the word into his or her heart and is then filled daily with the Spirit.

The Spirit is 'with' Christians. He is 'in' Spirit-filled Christians.

The Spirit does not act independently of the written word.

Yes, He does. He is not chained to a book. The Word of God lays down sound doctrine, which is a description of The Spirit (Character) of The Lord, which He will not violate, since He never changes; but The Spirit of The Lord will tip over all of your 'sacred cows' which you have built, just to prove that He is God, and not your knowledge. The Word is believed, and His Word is Truth, but there is so little of His Word that is understood, as He would have us to understand It.

The Comforter had a task, and we know it.

He still does. His 'task' is that of convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. He will be done, when all men are subjected to The Lord. Those that are His enemies will fall, and some of them will also be saved.

The Comforter completed His task when He guided the apostles and prophets in writing the infallible Word the Bible. Today, His work in that realm is finished.

Yes, The Word of God is complete. He will still continue to reveal The Words of God and The Will of God to His Children. Would you call one of your children up to sit in your lap, and then never (ever) speak to them? God is far better A Parent than you or I. He longs to speak to His Children, but they don't hear His Voice.

In laying hands on Saul to restore his eyesight, Ananias imitated the example of Jesus, who wrought similar miracles, at one time by touching the eyes of the blind (Matt. 9:29), and at another by putting clay on them and directing that it be washed away (John 9:6).

So, do you think that men today are less than this Ananias character? We lay hands upon others, and The Holy Spirit does the rest, through willing vessels of clay, yielded to His Holy Will.

It is quite common to assume that Ananias also conferred the Holy Spirit upon him, by imposition of hands. But this is neither stated nor implied in the text; nor is there any evidence that any besides the apostles ever exercised the power of imparting the Spirit.

Nor is there any evidence (stated or implied) that only Apostles may 'lay hands' upon others for miracles such as this to take place. Did Jesus only speak of the twelve Apostles when He said that these signs would follow them that believe, and only the twelve would be able to cast out devils, heal sick, cleanse lepers and cause others to speak with new tongues? No!!! He gave these gifts to His Bride. You have shut up The Kingdom of God against others, and you don't enter in yourself. You're a hypocrite.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was never imparted to one not yet baptized.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Why do you constantly come up with these off-the-wall factoids? Who cares? No one has said any different.

Cornelius and his household received a baptismal measure but not an indwelling which is different.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that Cornelius had enough sense to lay hold of God's Promise far more than you have yet to claim a clue of.

The fact that this power is not known to have been exercised by any other than the apostles, establishes a strong presumption that it was not exercised by Ananias.

Hey, the Apostles didn't have any power, except over the enemy. The rest is done by The Spirit of The Lord.

We do not forget that Ananias says, "Jesus has sent me that you may be filled with the Holy Spirit."

He has sent all of His Children with the same command: "Go ye..."

Please note that everything that was extraneous or just didn't make any sense was deleted from your post...

Also, your failure to recognize your error of only gloming onto the portion of The Scripture (the word 'knowledge') that you find to be most useful, has blinded you to The Truth evidenced by The Scriptures, which this verse speaks of. Knowledge isn't Perfect until it is Perfect, no matter how you try to twist your way out of it. I won't bother with your tirade on knowledge, since, obviously, you only know 'about' God, and have never met Him.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

Re: The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me

Originally posted by Aimiel

What... Him.

Aimiel,

I deleted the greater portion of the above because of the length of this post. Maybe you should pick out a point or two and let us comment on them instead of repeating what we have said before.

The Spirit and Power of The Lord Jesus, Whose Holy Ghost Lives in Me
Post #306 of 306


Quotes are that Originally posted by JustAChristian in the previous posting...

Aimiel asserts: The church is perfect in the sense of having the complete revelation of Jesus Christ and every doctrine intended for its preservation. What, then, has happened to His Doctrine of His Body receiving The Holy Spirit? Do you believe that He wanted to give The Holy Spirit only to take Him back?

JustAChristian responds saying: The doctrine of receiving the Holy Spirit is as it has always been. One receives the gift of the Holy Spirit at obedience to baptism (Acts 2:38). The Holy Spirit indwells in believers (Romans 8:9). God only takes back what is not wanted. When anyone who is saved forsakes the doctrine of Christ then in the same act he relinquishes the Spirit (2John 8-9; 1 Cor. 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16).

quote:
The Holy Spirit empowered the apostles to deliver the perfect truth of God and confirmed that truth with signs and miracles (Mark 16:20).

Aimiel asserts: Again, as I said, that is 'part' of His Ministry.

JustAChristian responds saying: Yes, He still sanctifies the believers in their salvation at God’s will. However He does not deliver revelation today.

quote:
The verse has nothing to do with ““perfect tongues�� or anything about a language spoken before Babel.

Aimiel asserts: I'm speaking of the ultimate 'perfection' of the human tongue, that of having our languages restored, to the original. How could that be more perfect?

JustAChristian responds saying: You find nothing in the Bible to lead you to believe in a “perfection of the human tongue.� Didn’t you read my post on “What Does Perfection In 1Cor. 13:10 Mean?� Where do you get this nonsense except in man made doctrine?
quote:
The Bible is not a mystery as so many want to teach and believe.

Aimiel queries : Then would you please explain the passages of Daniel, which God has obscured? ... and those of Revelation? ... and Ezekiel?

JustAChristian responds saying: Just tell me what specific verses or parts that confuse you and I will give you my understanding.

quote:
God would not be just to give us a mystery and demand obedience to it at the same time leaving us to guess at it’s meaning.

Aimiel asserts: You may sit in judgement upon The Lord, if you so presume. I don't wish to make that mistake. He said that when The Mystery of God were finished, not that it was already finished.

JustAChristian responds saying: Where does it say that “The Mystery of God were finished� in the Bible?

quote:
We do not need further revelation, as the Mormons and others teach, in order to be able to worship “in Spirit and in truth.�

Aimiel asserts: I didn't say that we did. God does want to reveal things to us, though. He wants to teach us all things, and to show us things to come.

JustAChristian responds saying: Your whole premise is that we need the Holy Spirit to tell us revelation in order to know what God wants us to know today. What had God not told us that is essential for our salvation and manner of godly living ? The epistles tell us that He has given us everything we need (Eph. 1:3; 2 Peter 1:2-4).

quote:
The Bible is complete and has been confirmed with signs and miracles.

Aimiel asserts: Yes, with many happening right before your very eyes, more to come, and His Word will be confirmed even more.

JustAChristian responds saying: Then you say that Eph. 1:3 and 2 Peter 1:2-4 are not correct. You equate your knowledge to exceed that of two inspired apostles who say that God has provide everything we need unto life and godliness. Humm...

quote:
Yes, even Peter said there were parts of Paul’s writings which were hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16).

Aimiel asserts: There are also many things that are hidden, which can only be revealed by The Spirit of The Lord, and many more of these revelations yet to come.

JustAChristian responds saying: Moses said long ago, “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.� (Deuteronomy 29:29). God does not want us to be overburdened with the unknown that He had withheld and tells us so. Why do you persist in dwelling in this area? It can only be because of some man-made doctrine the you have received. Give it up.


quote:
However, proper study and interpretation goes a long way in knowing what is meant.

Aimiel asserts: I'd rather know The Spirit of God, personally, than have all the theories men like yourself have come up with, from the darkness of never having met Him.

JustAChristian responds saying: Why don’t you settle with a copy of the Bible? That is all Jesus would want you to do (2 Tim. 3:15-16).

quote:
By the way, it say the Holy Spirit divided severally as He will not the Lord (1 Cor. 12:11).

Aimiel asserts: The Lord is That Spirit.

JustAChristian responds saying: You still are talking about two separate members of the Godhead.

quote:
However, I do find in Hebrews: “God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will? (Hebrews 2:4)

Aimiel asserts: You're catching on.

JustAChristian responds saying: Catching on to what? I’m just showing you what the Bible says.

quote:
No women apostles here, and no mention of future succession by men or women apostles.

Aimiel asserts: Maybe you haven't read, "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." Junia is a feminine name, and she is 'of note' among the apostles. Not of note to them, but among. Also, when He set 'in' The Church (which, by the way, is eternal) His Gifts (the five-fold ministry gifts: apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher), did He set time-limits on all five, or just the two that scare you, because you can't approach faith enough to believe God for that type of anointing upon yourself? Is there something that you're 'holding back' from God, that you're afraid to lose, if there should be such a thing as Holy Ghost Baptism, or current-day Apostles or Prophets?

JustAChristian responds saying: Yes, it says these Christians, Andronicus and Junia, were noted or “distinguished� among the apostles. They were prominent and noticeable among them. It does not say that they WERE apostles. Furthermore, they do not fill the qualification laid out by Peter in the selection of Mathias in Acts 1. There is a difference between being noted and being appointed. No women apostles here. Did he set time limits on the offices. Yes, to the extent that they were needed. Today, elders (also called pastors) evangelist and teachers are still a part of establishing and stabilizing new congregations of the Lord’s church. Apostles and prophets ceased with complete revelation and forth telling of those revelations into writings we know as scripture.

quote:
You call me a liar, but you can not prove that I am lying. How then can you call me a liar?

Aimiel asserts: Because I fellowship with The Truth.

JustAChristian responds saying: That is rhetoric and spin. Be more specific. Since you say I have lied and lying is delivering as truth something you know to be false, where have I lied? What have I delivered as truth that I knew when I delivered it was a falsehood?


quote:
Let me ask you, can’t the Bible teach us all things now that it is complete (perfect)?

Aimiel asserts: The Bible can't teach a single soul. You have to read, submit your heart to The Lord, and He reveals The Truth to you. If that doesn't take place, then what is inside you is only darkness.

JustAChristian responds saying: Does God teach anything that is not presently in the Bible? If He does, hasn’t He lied then telling us that He has delivered everything that pertains unto life and godliness ? (Eph 1:3; 2 Peter 1:2-4).

quote:
Can we not see things to come through reading the complete revelation of God the Bible?

Aimiel asserts: Nope. You will be given the 'big picture,' but what He meant by 'things to come,' was that The Holy Ghost can show you when and how to avoid the pitfalls of life, and to do His Will.

JustAChristian responds saying: The Bible tell us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom. 10:17). Then where does the Bible tell us that we are given only the “big picture?� Doesn’t God tell us in the Bible how to avoid the pitfalls of life? (1 Cor. 10:13; James 4:7). What more could the Holy Ghost do if God has told us that He has done everything necessary for escaping the pitfalls of life?

quote:
How can you be sure that the Holy Spirit did the saving?

Aimiel asserts: Because, if it were the enemy, he would have simply let me die. The thief comes not, but to kill, steal and destroy. I thought you claimed to know The Scriptures.

JustAChristian responds saying: I do believe in the providence of God and know He does that which is in His will in my behalf, but I do not find Him telling me how and when He preforms His acts of providence.



quote:
Was that an assignment from Christ to cause people to be saved from harm?

Aimiel asserts: Yes. He loves us, and will never leave us, or forsake us.

JustAChristian responds saying: Yes, but has Jesus told us that He will not allow harm to befall us? If so, how do you defend that we suffer acts of harm?

quote:
Is not the word complete and able to convict men of sin not that the Holy Spirit has guided the inspiration of the written word?

Aimiel asserts: You speak of The Word of God as if it has power which can only be attributed to The Spirit of The Lord. He is The One Who convicts, not words. The Spirit quickens, not men's conscinces.

JustAChristian responds saying: But doesn’t the Bible tell us that the Spirit works through the word (John 6:63)? Doesn’t the Spirit teach with the Word of God (1 Cor. 2:13). If this be true, how can you discount the Word of God? The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin but not independent of the Word of God only through the Word (John 16:7; 2 Peter 1:20-21).

quote:
What can the Spirit do today that the Bible can not also do?

Aimiel asserts: He can speak. The Word of God has to be read. He can tell us what God is saying today. What He wants us to do today. What The Word of God means, truly. He reveals all Truth, as The Lord Wills.

JustAChristian responds saying: Are you saying that the Spirit speaks to you, today? How can you be sure that this is the Spirit? How do you know it is not the Devil who (2 Cor. 11:3, 13f) Doesn’t he seek to destroy God’s work today? (Mark 4:15). Yes we have to read the Bible or have it read to us, but, the Bible tell us to “speak as the oracles of God (1 Peter 4:11). So, whatever we speak must be that which is found in the Bible. Speaking anything else is ungodly and contrary to that which is godliness. It is that simple!

quote:
Is not the Bible the complete Will of God?

Aimiel asserts: Jesus, in just a few years of ministry, was said to have done more than all the books in the world could have contained, were these deeds written down. Don't you realize that The Spirit of The Lord, Who is able to be with (and 'in' if they'll invite Him in) believers on every corner of this planet, in orbit or on other celestial bodies, all at the same time, is able to not only reveal The 'General' Will of God, which The Word of God teaches (with His Help), but also able to reveal The Specific (for each and every believer) Will of God, which varies for each and every believer? Are all Apostles? Are all Prophets? He reveals to each, who they are, what (if any) their ministry calling is; and what His Will is for their lives and for their progeny.

JustAChristian responds saying: All I asked you was: Is not the Bible the complete Will of God? All I got back was a lot of “spin.� Why can’t you answer a simple question with a simple Yes of No?

quote:
Will not the Holy Spirit automatically indwell all saved ?

Aimiel asserts: No. If He did, all would be filled. Obviously they are not.

JustAChristian responds saying: Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them� (Matthew 7:20); not “Seeing the Holy Spirit in them you shall know them� We know Christians from non-Christians by the course of their lives. What they do and in what authority they do it. If a believer does the Will of God through Jesus Christ they will generate the fruit that the Lord is expecting. The Holy Spirit indwells the Christian but not independent of the Word.


quote:
Yes, we are told to “be filled with the Spirit� but how is that done?

Aimiel asserts: By The Spirit of The Lord, and not by any formula or knowledge.

JustAChristian responds saying: What about the context of John 6:63? Take in the word and you will be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:19).

quote:
Jesus said, “the words I have spoken they are spirit and they are life� (John 6:63).

Aimiel maintains Only to those that find Them.

JustAChristian responds saying: Then what can the Spirit do or provide that the Word can not?

quote:
A Christian takes in the word into his or her heart and is then filled daily with the Spirit.

Aimiel affirms The Spirit is 'with' Christians. He is 'in' Spirit-filled Christians.

JustAChristian responds saying: Then why is one told to be filled with the Spirit? (Eph 5:19). You can not fill that which is already filled. When is the Christian empty and needs filling?

quote:
The Spirit does not act independently of the written word.

Aimiel asserts: Yes, He does. He is not chained to a book. The Word of God lays down sound doctrine, which is a description of The Spirit (Character) of The Lord, which He will not violate, since He never changes; but The Spirit of The Lord will tip over all of your 'sacred cows' which you have built, just to prove that He is God, and not your knowledge. The Word is believed, and His Word is Truth, but there is so little of His Word that is understood, as He would have us to understand It.

JustAChristian responds saying: You do not give us one verse to sustain your position that the Spirit acts independently of the Word of God today. Yes, a lot of the Word is misunderstood and misused by people who profess Christianity. This is why there is so much division. But, Jesus is the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. His Word is consistently adequate for life and godliness and is found in Holy Writ sufficient to lead one to salvation (Romans 1:16). The Holy Spirit does not lead anyone to salvation except through the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (not by so-called independent modern day revelation).


quote:
The Comforter had a task, and we know it.

Aimiel asseverates: He still does. His 'task' is that of convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. He will be done, when all men are subjected to The Lord. Those that are His enemies will fall, and some of them will also be saved.

JustAChristian responds saying: The Holy Spirit lead the apostles and prophets into “all truth.� (John 16:13). He never spoke anything other than what Jesus told Him to say (same verse). If Jesus has not said it then the Holy Spirit has not said it and does not say it today. The Word provides everything we need unto life and godliness and is the total of everything Deity has said for us to use. That which has not been revealed is reserved by the Lord (Deut. 29:29). What we need for salvation is revealed. We must believe, repent of sins, confess Christ publically, be immersed for the remission of sins and walk in newness of life to be well pleasing and saved. Having done these acts we receive the Holy Spirit as a gift into our hearts (John 8:24; Luke 13:3; Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 2:38; Galatians 4:6).

quote:
The Comforter completed His task when He guided the apostles and prophets in writing the infallible Word the Bible. Today, His work in that realm is finished.

Aimiel asserts: Yes, The Word of God is complete. He will still continue to reveal The Words of God and The Will of God to His Children. Would you call one of your children up to sit in your lap, and then never (ever) speak to them? God is far better A Parent than you or I. He longs to speak to His Children, but they don't hear His Voice.

JustAChristian responds saying: How can He continue to reveal the word of God? Once revealed it remains revealed. One reading the word is not to be equated with having it revealed to him or her. Does God speak to us verbally today? No! He said to hear His Son (Matthew 17:5). Jesus speaks to us through His word (John 6:63). Paul tells the Corinthian church how Deity works by means of the Spirit to deliver the Word (1Cor. 2:10-13). Deity speaks today only through the Word. There is no modern day revelation (Eph 1:3; 2 Peter 1:4-6). Paul tell the church how effective the Word of God is for us today: “...because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.� (1 Thessalonians 2:13) You need to receive and do the Word to reap the blessings!

quote:
In laying hands on Saul to restore his eyesight, Ananias imitated the example of Jesus, who wrought similar miracles, at one time by touching the eyes of the blind (Matt. 9:29), and at another by putting clay on them and directing that it be washed away (John 9:6).

Aimiel avows: So, do you think that men today are less than this Ananias character? We lay hands upon others, and The Holy Spirit does the rest, through willing vessels of clay, yielded to His Holy Will.

JustAChristian responds saying: The Bible declared that miracles would cease. Signs and wonders ceased (1 Cor. 13:8-10) with complete revelation and confirmation of that which was revealed (Revelation 22:21; Hebrews 2:3-4). The “perfect� or “complete� revelation came to the apostles and prophets who revealed it to the church (Eph. 3:8-10). Only apostles through the laying on of their hands could convey the gifts of the Spirit (Acts 8:14-17; 19:1-6). We have no apostles today thus no conveyance of gifts. The Word of God has been confirmed with signs and miracles (Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:3-4). Any semblance to first century gifts and miracles today is the result of misunderstanding and teaching of unlearned men accompanied with the works of the Devil.

quote:
It is quite common to assume that Ananias also conferred the Holy Spirit upon him, by imposition of hands. But this is neither stated nor implied in the text; nor is there any evidence that any besides the apostles ever exercised the power of imparting the Spirit.

Aimiel asserts: Nor is there any evidence (stated or implied) that only Apostles may 'lay hands' upon others for miracles such as this to take place. Did Jesus only speak of the twelve Apostles when He said that these signs would follow them that believe, and only the twelve would be able to cast out devils, heal sick, cleanse lepers and cause others to speak with new tongues? No!!! He gave these gifts to His Bride. You have shut up The Kingdom of God against others, and you don't enter in yourself. You're a hypocrite.

JustAChristian responds saying: Your learning has blinded you to the obvious. The Bible states that by the laying on of hands of the apostles was the gifts of the Spirit imparted (Acts 8:14-17). Nowhere else is it shown that anyone other than a apostle imparted the gifts. Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17). Unless you can show an example of someone other than an apostle imparting the gifts of the Spirit you stand in error on you previous statement.

quote:
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was never imparted to one not yet baptized.

Aimiel asserts: What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Why do you constantly come up with these off-the-wall factoids? Who cares? No one has said any different.

JustAChristian responds saying: Hmmm...sorry, I must have hit a sore spot! I used to do that the BChristianK all the time.

quote:
Cornelius and his household received a baptismal measure but not an indwelling which is different.

Aimiel asserts: I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that Cornelius had enough sense to lay hold of God's Promise far more than you have yet to claim a clue of.

JustAChristian responds saying: Remember, we are to “...prove all things� (1 Thess. 5:21). You’re yet to prove anything. Don’t assert anything you’re not able to prove!

quote:
The fact that this power is not known to have been exercised by any other than the apostles, establishes a strong presumption that it was not exercised by Ananias.

Aimiel contends: Hey, the Apostles didn't have any power, except over the enemy. The rest is done by The Spirit of The Lord.

JustAChristian responds saying: Sorry, you didn’t understand the statement, did you? Go back and read it again. Let it sink in. The power spoken of was the gift of the Spirit through the laying on of hands. Ananias could not do this. He had the gift of healing for he healed Sauls blindness but he could not convey the Spirit.


quote:
We do not forget that Ananias says, "Jesus has sent me that you may be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Aimiel asserts: He has sent all of His Children with the same command: "Go ye..."

JustAChristian responds saying: We are not in the same context. Acts 9 and Mark 16 are not the same context.

Aimiel informs us: Please note that everything that was extraneous or just didn't make any sense was deleted from your post...

JustAChristian responds saying: Whatever...

Aimiel challenges: Also, your failure to recognize your error of only gloming onto the portion of The Scripture (the word 'knowledge') that you find to be most useful, has blinded you to The Truth evidenced by The Scriptures, which this verse speaks of. Knowledge isn't Perfect until it is Perfect, no matter how you try to twist your way out of it. I won't bother with your tirade on knowledge, since, obviously, you only know 'about' God, and have never met Him.

JustAChristian responds saying: Jesus said, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.� (John 8:32) The only way that we can accomplish the will of God is to know the will of God. The truth will make us free (of sins) and free (from the works of the Law). It will provide everything for us unto life and godliness if we use it properly. I pray that you will someday come to know and appreciate it more than you do today.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JustAChristian

The doctrine of receiving the Holy Spirit is as it has always been. One receives the gift of the Holy Spirit at obedience to baptism (Acts 2:38).

This 'doctrine' is only held by those who choose to remain ignorant of The Person of The Holy Ghost, and deny that He is available to them. They hide behind words, and try to dodge the responsibility for the faith that God requires to be able to find Him.

The Holy Spirit indwells in believers (Romans 8:9).

He has never stopped, ever since Pentecost.

God only takes back what is not wanted.

No, He doesn't 'take back' gifts. They are given, whether they are received, or left lying on the table they're presented on.

Yes, He still sanctifies the believers in their salvation at God’s will. However He does not deliver revelation today.

Yes, He does.

You find nothing in the Bible to lead you to believe in a “perfection of the human tongue.�

You simply reject all truth I confront you with, because I said it, don't you?

Where does it say that “The Mystery of God were finished� in the Bible?

Maybe you should learn how to do a text search.

Your whole premise is that we need the Holy Spirit to tell us revelation in order to know what God wants us to know today.

Unless you wish to continue to try to study, and to try to imagine what He is thinking or what He might wish to say to you. It won't do any good, but if that is what you want, go right ahead. It doesn't seem to be working very well for you, though.

You equate your knowledge to exceed that of two inspired apostles who say that God has provide everything we need unto life and godliness.

No, I agree with them, because part of what we need is The Holy Ghost Baptism.

God does not want us to be overburdened with the unknown that He had withheld and tells us so. Why do you persist in dwelling in this area?

I'm not, you are. You persist in dwellin in the realm of, "God has revealed everything to us," and are trying to convince me of the same lie. He has revealed His General Will to the world, through His Son, but He has also chosen to reveal specifics of His Will in Person.

It can only be because of some man-made doctrine the you have received.

That doesn't quite seem right, to The Holy Ghost, or to me.

Give it up.

Never. I would rather give up breathing than give up The Presence of The Holy Ghost; He is that important and vital to me.

Why don’t you settle with a copy of the Bible?

Using my copy and listening to Him is how I met Him. I wouldn't give up my Bible unless someone first replaced it with one in better shape.

That is all Jesus would want you to do (2 Tim. 3:15-16).

Why don't you 'be filled with The Spirit,' that's something else that He wants believers to do, also?

You still are talking about two separate members of the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit can't say anything of Himself, He tells us what The Father is doing, as well as what He's already done (logos).

Yes, it says these Christians, Andronicus and Junia, were noted or “distinguished� among the apostles.

They weren't of note 'to' but 'among' as in they were Apostles. :doh:

Did he set time limits on the offices. Yes, to the extent that they were needed.

No, not in my Bible.

Today, elders (also called pastors) evangelist and teachers are still a part of establishing and stabilizing new congregations of the Lord’s church.

So are Apostles and Prophets.

Apostles and prophets ceased with complete revelation and forth telling of those revelations into writings we know as scripture.

According to you.

Does God teach anything that is not presently in the Bible?

Of course He does.

If He does, hasn’t He lied then telling us that He has delivered everything that pertains unto life and godliness ? (Eph 1:3; 2 Peter 1:2-4).

Only if you're a legalist, and don't understand The Word of God. He has given us all the words, gifts and led us to His Expression of how to 'meet' Him and to enable us to come into a real and dynamic relationship with Him, not just the ability to study and learn about what He used to do. He has given The Holy Ghost so that we can have The Truth of The Scriptures revealed to us, by Him coming alongside us, and then, if we take the next step, by faith, also come to live inside of us, if we ask Him. You're right, in that God truly has 'given' all that is needed, pertaining to life and Godliness, but not everyone accepts what is given. Many don't accept Jesus. Others, who proclaim to, only accpet the 'idea' of Jesus, and never pursue Him until they meet Him. Others not only do that, but then ask The Father for The Gift of The Holy Ghost, and He gives Him to them. Yes, He was 'given' at Pentecost, but it takes inviting Him in, to receive His Presence and many don't want Him, due to their doubt or fear of God.

The Bible tell us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom. 10:17).

Amen.

What more could the Holy Ghost do if God has told us that He has done everything necessary for escaping the pitfalls of life?

One example I have for you I heard on the news on the way to work today. A woman drove to a spot in her city where she had saw in her dream the night before, and when she got there, kept hearing, "Keep going," and obeyed. She didn't know that The Holy Ghost is capable of communicating to people in their dreams, especially when they aren't Spirit-filled, and capable of communicating directly with Him; but, anyway, when she 'kept going,' she eventually found her neice, trapped in her car, after eight days. Her church had been praying for her, and The Holy Ghost knew how to 'find' her. He probably would have gotten someone there sooner, had the girl's family been Spirit-filled.

I do believe in the providence of God and know He does that which is in His will in my behalf, but I do not find Him telling me how and when He preforms His acts of providence.

That's OK, I'm not mad at you. God would that you avail yourself of all that He has made available to you, but you don't have to. It would be better for you, but you think you know better than God, so you just have your way. That's fine.

But doesn’t the Bible tell us that the Spirit works through the word (John 6:63)?

Where do you believe I have said otherwise? He always confirms The Word of God, even in the most unique of ways.

Doesn’t the Spirit teach with the Word of God (1 Cor. 2:13).

Yes, and without it. He isn't restricted to only ever quoting chapter and verse. He also often has other things to say.

If this be true, how can you discount the Word of God?

I don't buy anything unless it's on sale, even Bibles. Just kidding. I don't discount It, but you seem to be trying to test God, or put Him in a box.

The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin but not independent of the Word of God only through the Word (John 16:7; 2 Peter 1:20-21).

What does that mean to you? I guess I'm trying to ask you to either re-phrase this question or give me an (some) example(s) of what you do mean, please.

Are you saying that the Spirit speaks to you, today?

Of course.

How can you be sure that this is the Spirit?

The same way that I am sure that I'm saved. It happens in my 'knower.' It knows.

How do you know it is not the Devil who...

For one, we have The Holy Spirit inside (Spirit-filled believers) so the enemy has no place on the inside of us. What communion does light have with darkness? For another, I know His Voice, and I won't follow the voice of a stranger.

Doesn’t he seek to destroy God’s work today?

Yes, and every time you get a step ahead by study, revelation, hearing or experience, and grow closer to The Lord by it, the enemy seems to regain strength and come at you with more and greater attacks. I've read the back of The Book though, we win.

Yes we have to read the Bible or have it read to us, but, the Bible tell us to “speak as the oracles of God (1 Peter 4:11).

I don't believe that this is possible without inspiration from The Holy Ghost. When someone speaks and they are pretending to speak prophecy or other gifts from The Lord, and His Spirit is not in it, it doesn't 'ring true.' We're given The Word of God for many reasons, but one of the greatest things that The Word still does is operate as a 'measuring stick' for ALL of The Truth.

So, whatever we speak must be that which is found in the Bible.

If that's true, then why don't you recite The Word of God, instead of your own words? No, we're to adhere to what The Bible teaches, and to act according to It, but we are also at liberty to be ourselves. We also are given Rhema Words from God, often while in prayer, meditation, from others (ministers or 'laypersons') or from The Holy Spirit, as He wills, to share.

Speaking anything else is ungodly and contrary to that which is godliness. It is that simple!

Now you sound like Squeakybro. He believes that The Holy Ghost is limited to only reciting verses. If that were the case, Jesus would not have ministered as He did. The Holy Ghost revealed to Him The Will of The Father, and Jesus did That Will, always. We need to do the same. Not copy what Jesus did, but obey The Revelations from The Holy Ghost.

Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them� (Matthew 7:20); not “Seeing the Holy Spirit in them you shall know them� We know Christians from non-Christians by the course of their lives.

Yes, and we also know Spirit-filled believers by The Spirit giving them utterances in tongues.

Then what can the Spirit do or provide that the Word can not?

Well, take my name (pseudonym) for instance. Aimiel. He gave me that name. I didn't ask for it, and had no idea what it was for. Years later, He told me to change my name on TOL from famousGandalf7 to my God-given name. I did. I didn't know, until I looked it up on the internet, that Amiel (the Hebrew root of the name Aimiel, which The Lord gave me the spelling of) means 'God of my people.' I would never presume to call myself by such a name, but He wanted me to have this name, so I do. I can't tell you (just yet, anyway) why I have this name, but it does have Holy roots. He has provided me with many prophecies that others have told me confirmed what He was saying to them. He has used me for many such 'giftings' to The Body of Christ. There have been healings, conceptions, and many other things that He has provided, the whole of which, I imagine, if they were all written down, would fill more than just a few encyclopedia's worth of books. I have ministered in many churches, and been used mightily of The Lord in ways that I never would have imagined of, had I been limited to only thinking 'inside' The Books of The Bible, as you seem to be.

Then why is one told to be filled with the Spirit? (Eph 5:19).

Because God longs to dwell in temples not made with hands.

You can not fill that which is already filled.

You've really never met God, have you. He can fill, and fill and fill. He always does exceeding, abundantly above all that we could ask or even think; especially when it comes to His Holy Presence.

When is the Christian empty and needs filling?

For one, we aren't 'empty' other than void of His Presence. We have our ideas about Him, but until we meet Him, we don't really know anything. Everything we know is second-hand knowledge, at best, before we meet Him. The Christian that is taught the error that The Holy Ghost 'fills' them when they get saved is short-changed.

Yes, a lot of the Word is misunderstood and misused by people who profess Christianity.

This is especially true of those who are encultrated into their particular religious denomination, and even worse the closer they are to the ministry.

This is why there is so much division.

No, division comes from being carnal, and not following The Spirit of The Lord.

But, Jesus is the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.

Yes, and He is also The Same yesterday, today and FOREVER.

His Word is consistently adequate for life and godliness and is found in Holy Writ sufficient to lead one to salvation (Romans 1:16).

Yes, but one of the most important things that the majority of Christians overlook is that The Lord also wants us to be being filled with The Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit does not lead anyone to salvation except through the Word of God.

Amen.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (not by so-called independent modern day revelation).

Well, That Spirit that you're talking about IS The Word of God. It is The Spirit of The Lord. Did you think that He is the spirit of a stranger? I believe that you're fighting against Him, not me.

The Holy Spirit lead the apostles and prophets into “all truth.� (John 16:13).

He also leads us to those same Truths, if we'll deign to follow Him.

He never spoke anything other than what Jesus told Him to say (same verse).

Being The Spirit of The Lord, what did you expect, that He'd go off on some bunny-trail and teach us to worship the moon?

If Jesus has not said it then the Holy Spirit has not said it and does not say it today.

That's a lie. He is alive, and He shows us The Father and things to come. He isn't restricted, seeing as how He is God, and He can't be 'fenced in' by your religious dogma.

The Word provides everything we need unto life and godliness and is the total of everything Deity has said for us to use.

If that's true, then you have nothing to fear from The Holy Ghost, so why do you resist Him?

That which has not been revealed is reserved by the Lord (Deut. 29:29).

When He decides to release that knowledge, who do you think He will announce the revelation through? ...one that only accepts tradition, or one who is already familiar with The Lord, by relationship and fellowship with Him, who recognizes His Voice, and knows how to go about obeying Him?

What we need for salvation is revealed.

Yes, and so is what we need for life and Godliness. You seem to have a form of godliness, but you also deny The Power thereof.

We must believe, repent of sins, confess Christ publically, be immersed for the remission of sins and walk in newness of life to be well pleasing and saved.

Yes, and then you have to ask for The Holy Ghost for Him to indwell your flesh. If you don't, then He can't.

Having done these acts we receive the Holy Spirit as a gift into our hearts (John 8:24; Luke 13:3; Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 2:38; Galatians 4:6).

If we receive The Gift, but not if we refuse Him.

How can He continue to reveal the word of God?

Did you ever peel an onion? It has many layers of skin. As The Holy Ghost reveals The Word, there are many different levels of understanding available, just in this life, to believers. We are shown what we can handle. If we never trust Him, we'll never get past the first layer. One example I have for you is this:

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

What does that verse mean to you?

Once revealed it remains revealed.

True. That's because the revelation of Truth that comes from The Holy Ghost is The Rock that Jesus said that He would build His Church upon. Once a believer has The Truth of any revelation (whether it be in The Written Word of God or not) that Truth is like a rock. It is a part of their 'foundation.' We build our foundation upon The Rock, which is Jesus, but we also build it and keep building it. No one can take it away from us.

There is such a thing, though, as darkness. The Dark Ages were where (it is believed) a lot of revelation given to The Church was lost. We have yet to get back to the power and authority of the early church. Jesus said that the works that He did we would do also. I don't believe that I have read of anywhere that anyone ever walked on water (that I believed was true) except the night that Jesus came to the disciples on the sea. We have yet to do His Works. He also said that we would do greater, and that is because there will be millions of Spirit-filled believers, obeying His Holy Spirit, and doing what He wants us to do. That will be miraculous!!!

One reading the word is not to be equated with having it revealed to him or her.

Amen. But there are more revelations in His Word than men yet know of.

Does God speak to us verbally today? No! He said to hear His Son (Matthew 17:5).

That's Whose Spirit The Holy Spirit is.

Jesus speaks to us through His word (John 6:63).

Yes, and He also speaks to us by His Spirit, and His Spirit is also able to speak words that are not 'scripted.' He isn't The Holy Mockingbird or The Holy Tape Recorder. He is The Spirit of The Lord. Now The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is liberty.

Deity speaks today only through the Word.

He also speaks as He Wills, since He is not your puppet.

There is no modern day revelation (Eph 1:3; 2 Peter 1:4-6).

Yes, there is. If there wasn't you and I would both be in the dark. The Holy Spirit is not only Perfectly Capable of revealing the first layer of Truth from Scriptures, but He knows what He meant when He inspired the man or woman to write it down. He knows how to reveal what to whomsoever He wills. He is the reason that He said, "It is not in man to direct his own steps," and, again, "Be not as the horse or mule," referring to people who wish to place a bridle on people, so that they can easily be led this way or that way. He wants us to be led by 'His Eye,' which is The Eye that brooded upon the face of the deep long before He began creation. He is The One Who lives 'with' Christians, and INSIDE OF Spirit filled Christians.

The Bible declared that miracles would cease.

Yes, they will, when we are in The Presence of The Lord, Who is The Miracle Worker.

Signs and wonders ceased (1 Cor. 13:8-10) with complete revelation and confirmation of that which was revealed (Revelation 22:21; Hebrews 2:3-4). The “perfect� or “complete� revelation came to the apostles and prophets who revealed it to the church (Eph. 3:8-10).

As I said, if you had this 'perfect' knowledge of God that you believe the Apostles had, you'd be teaching me how to walk more closely with The Holy Ghost, not denying His Power or Authority.

Only apostles through the laying on of their hands could convey the gifts of the Spirit (Acts 8:14-17; 19:1-6).

Untrue. Many instances of The Holy Spirit Baptism occurred in The Bible without any hands being lain upon the belivers, much less those of the Elite Twelve.

We have no apostles today thus no conveyance of gifts.

Yes, we do. The five-fold ministry has not been re-called, and will never be. This Body is Eternal. The Lord is Complete, and He is not a parapalegic.

The Word of God has been confirmed with signs and miracles (Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:3-4).

Yes, and He will never stop confirming It.

The Bible states that by the laying on of hands of the apostles was the gifts of the Spirit imparted (Acts 8:14-17).

Haven't you read that Jesus was more pleased with those who would believe upon Him without ever having seen Him? Don't you think that those who continue to search for Him, and then find Him, and become filled with His Holy Ghost, without having any Apostles' hands laid upon Him will please Him the same way?

Nowhere else is it shown that anyone other than a apostle imparted the gifts.

The Holy Spirit is The One Who imparted Himself, and His Gifts. You seem to be of the same spirit as Simon was back in Acts 8. He thought there was something special the Apostles could sell him. You've bought into the same lying thought that he had in his heart.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17).

Amen.

Unless you can show an example of someone other than an apostle imparting the gifts of the Spirit you stand in error on you previous statement.

I have imparted gifts by my own hands, so I guess that it is you who is in error.

The Holy Ghost is alive and well, and waiting for you to answer His Knock upon the door of your heart. :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by greatdivide46

Aimiel,

Thanks. I agree with you completely that the Holy Spirit did not abide inside of the Old Testament saints, but came upon them (sometimes more than once).

So, I agree with you on this, but I agree with JustAChristian regarding water baptism.

You're quite welcome. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. What has he said about baptism that you think I might have expressed any disagreement with? I don't find where anyone ought to differ with anyone over sprinkling, splashing, dunking or staying dry. I don't see that it was designed to be something for us to scrap over. I therefore try not to step on anyone's 'religious' toes. :thumb:

 

[Lighthouse]

Aimiel-
Why not step on anyone's toes?

 

[Aimiel]

When you step on religious persons' toes, they bite, because they're spiders; weaving a web of deception, they are in the center of, and they always try to then step on your toes, with all eight of thier feet, and they're very practiced at it.

 

[Lighthouse]

The truth steps on toes, Aimiel. It offends people, because they don't want to believe that tehy are wrong, when the truth is, only God is right in all things.

 

[JustAChristian]

The Bible Says....

The Bible Says....

Originally posted by Aimiel

This 'doctrine' is only held by those who choose to remain ignorant of The Person of The Holy Ghost, and deny that He is available to them. They hide behind words, and try to dodge the responsibility for the faith that God requires to be able to find Him.He has never stopped, ever since Pentecost.No, He doesn't 'take back' gifts. They are given, whether they are received, or left lying on the table they're presented on.Yes, He does.You simply reject all truth I confront you with, because I said it, don't you?Maybe you should learn how to do a text search.Unless you wish to continue to try to study, and to try to imagine what He is thinking or what He might wish to say to you. It won't do any good, but if that is what you want, go right ahead. It doesn't seem to be working very well for you, though. No, I agree with them, because part of what we need is The Holy Ghost Baptism.I'm not, you are. You persist in dwellin in the realm of, "God has revealed everything to us," and are trying to convince me of the same lie. He has revealed His General Will to the world, through His Son, but He has also chosen to reveal specifics of His Will in Person.That doesn't quite seem right, to The Holy Ghost, or to me.Never. I would rather give up breathing than give up The Presence of The Holy Ghost; He is that important and vital to me.Using my copy and listening to Him is how I met Him. I wouldn't give up my Bible unless someone first replaced it with one in better shape.Why don't you 'be filled with The Spirit,' that's something else that He wants believers to do, also?The Holy Spirit can't say anything of Himself, He tells us what The Father is doing, as well as what He's already done (logos).They weren't of note 'to' but 'among' as in they were Apostles. :doh:No, not in my Bible.So are Apostles and Prophets.According to you. Of course He does. Only if you're a legalist, and don't understand The Word of God. He has given us all the words, gifts and led us to His Expression of how to 'meet' Him and to enable us to come into a real and dynamic relationship with Him, not just the ability to study and learn about what He used to do. He has given The Holy Ghost so that we can have The Truth of The Scriptures revealed to us, by Him coming alongside us, and then, if we take the next step, by faith, also come to live inside of us, if we ask Him. You're right, in that God truly has 'given' all that is needed, pertaining to life and Godliness, but not everyone accepts what is given. Many don't accept Jesus. Others, who proclaim to, only accpet the 'idea' of Jesus, and never pursue Him until they meet Him. Others not only do that, but then ask The Father for The Gift of The Holy Ghost, and He gives Him to them. Yes, He was 'given' at Pentecost, but it takes inviting Him in, to receive His Presence and many don't want Him, due to their doubt or fear of God.Amen.One example I have for you I heard on the news on the way to work today. A woman drove to a spot in her city where she had saw in her dream the night before, and when she got there, kept hearing, "Keep going," and obeyed. She didn't know that The Holy Ghost is capable of communicating to people in their dreams, especially when they aren't Spirit-filled, and capable of communicating directly with Him; but, anyway, when she 'kept going,' she eventually found her neice, trapped in her car, after eight days. Her church had been praying for her, and The Holy Ghost knew how to 'find' her. He probably would have gotten someone there sooner, had the girl's family been Spirit-filled. That's OK, I'm not mad at you. God would that you avail yourself of all that He has made available to you, but you don't have to. It would be better for you, but you think you know better than God, so you just have your way. That's fine.Where do you believe I have said otherwise? He always confirms The Word of God, even in the most unique of ways.Yes, and without it. He isn't restricted to only ever quoting chapter and verse. He also often has other things to say.I don't buy anything unless it's on sale, even Bibles. Just kidding. I don't discount It, but you seem to be trying to test God, or put Him in a box.What does that mean to you? I guess I'm trying to ask you to either re-phrase this question or give me an (some) example(s) of what you do mean, please.Of course.The same way that I am sure that I'm saved. It happens in my 'knower.' It knows.For one, we have The Holy Spirit inside (Spirit-filled believers) so the enemy has no place on the inside of us. What communion does light have with darkness? For another, I know His Voice, and I won't follow the voice of a stranger. Yes, and every time you get a step ahead by study, revelation, hearing or experience, and grow closer to The Lord by it, the enemy seems to regain strength and come at you with more and greater attacks. I've read the back of The Book though, we win. I don't believe that this is possible without inspiration from The Holy Ghost. When someone speaks and they are pretending to speak prophecy or other gifts from The Lord, and His Spirit is not in it, it doesn't 'ring true.' We're given The Word of God for many reasons, but one of the greatest things that The Word still does is operate as a 'measuring stick' for ALL of The Truth. If that's true, then why don't you recite The Word of God, instead of your own words? No, we're to adhere to what The Bible teaches, and to act according to It, but we are also at liberty to be ourselves. We also are given Rhema Words from God, often while in prayer, meditation, from others (ministers or 'laypersons') or from The Holy Spirit, as He wills, to share. Now you sound like Squeakybro. He believes that The Holy Ghost is limited to only reciting verses. If that were the case, Jesus would not have ministered as He did. The Holy Ghost revealed to Him The Will of The Father, and Jesus did That Will, always. We need to do the same. Not copy what Jesus did, but obey The Revelations from The Holy Ghost.Yes, and we also know Spirit-filled believers by The Spirit giving them utterances in tongues.Well, take my name (pseudonym) for instance. Aimiel. He gave me that name. I didn't ask for it, and had no idea what it was for. Years later, He told me to change my name on TOL from famousGandalf7 to my God-given name. I did. I didn't know, until I looked it up on the internet, that Amiel (the Hebrew root of the name Aimiel, which The Lord gave me the spelling of) means 'God of my people.' I would never presume to call myself by such a name, but He wanted me to have this name, so I do. I can't tell you (just yet, anyway) why I have this name, but it does have Holy roots. He has provided me with many prophecies that others have told me confirmed what He was saying to them. He has used me for many such 'giftings' to The Body of Christ. There have been healings, conceptions, and many other things that He has provided, the whole of which, I imagine, if they were all written down, would fill more than just a few encyclopedia's worth of books. I have ministered in many churches, and been used mightily of The Lord in ways that I never would have imagined of, had I been limited to only thinking 'inside' The Books of The Bible, as you seem to be.Because God longs to dwell in temples not made with hands.You've really never met God, have you. He can fill, and fill and fill. He always does exceeding, abundantly above all that we could ask or even think; especially when it comes to His Holy Presence.For one, we aren't 'empty' other than void of His Presence. We have our ideas about Him, but until we meet Him, we don't really know anything. Everything we know is second-hand knowledge, at best, before we meet Him. The Christian that is taught the error that The Holy Ghost 'fills' them when they get saved is short-changed.This is especially true of those who are encultrated into their particular religious denomination, and even worse the closer they are to the ministry. No, division comes from being carnal, and not following The Spirit of The Lord.Yes, and He is also The Same yesterday, today and FOREVER.Yes, but one of the most important things that the majority of Christians overlook is that The Lord also wants us to be being filled with The Holy Spirit. Amen.Well, That Spirit that you're talking about IS The Word of God. It is The Spirit of The Lord. Did you think that He is the spirit of a stranger? I believe that you're fighting against Him, not me.He also leads us to those same Truths, if we'll deign to follow Him.Being The Spirit of The Lord, what did you expect, that He'd go off on some bunny-trail and teach us to worship the moon?That's a lie. He is alive, and He shows us The Father and things to come. He isn't restricted, seeing as how He is God, and He can't be 'fenced in' by your religious dogma.If that's true, then you have nothing to fear from The Holy Ghost, so why do you resist Him?When He decides to release that knowledge, who do you think He will announce the revelation through? ...one that only accepts tradition, or one who is already familiar with The Lord, by relationship and fellowship with Him, who recognizes His Voice, and knows how to go about obeying Him?Yes, and so is what we need for life and Godliness. You seem to have a form of godliness, but you also deny The Power thereof.Yes, and then you have to ask for The Holy Ghost for Him to indwell your flesh. If you don't, then He can't.If we receive The Gift, but not if we refuse Him.Did you ever peel an onion? It has many layers of skin. As The Holy Ghost reveals The Word, there are many different levels of understanding available, just in this life, to believers. We are shown what we can handle. If we never trust Him, we'll never get past the first layer. One example I have for you is this:

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

What does that verse mean to you?True. That's because the revelation of Truth that comes from The Holy Ghost is The Rock that Jesus said that He would build His Church upon. Once a believer has The Truth of any revelation (whether it be in The Written Word of God or not) that Truth is like a rock. It is a part of their 'foundation.' We build our foundation upon The Rock, which is Jesus, but we also build it and keep building it. No one can take it away from us.

There is such a thing, though, as darkness. The Dark Ages were where (it is believed) a lot of revelation given to The Church was lost. We have yet to get back to the power and authority of the early church. Jesus said that the works that He did we would do also. I don't believe that I have read of anywhere that anyone ever walked on water (that I believed was true) except the night that Jesus came to the disciples on the sea. We have yet to do His Works. He also said that we would do greater, and that is because there will be millions of Spirit-filled believers, obeying His Holy Spirit, and doing what He wants us to do. That will be miraculous!!!Amen. But there are more revelations in His Word than men yet know of.That's Whose Spirit The Holy Spirit is.Yes, and He also speaks to us by His Spirit, and His Spirit is also able to speak words that are not 'scripted.' He isn't The Holy Mockingbird or The Holy Tape Recorder. He is The Spirit of The Lord. Now The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is liberty.He also speaks as He Wills, since He is not your puppet.Yes, there is. If there wasn't you and I would both be in the dark. The Holy Spirit is not only Perfectly Capable of revealing the first layer of Truth from Scriptures, but He knows what He meant when He inspired the man or woman to write it down. He knows how to reveal what to whomsoever He wills. He is the reason that He said, "It is not in man to direct his own steps," and, again, "Be not as the horse or mule," referring to people who wish to place a bridle on people, so that they can easily be led this way or that way. He wants us to be led by 'His Eye,' which is The Eye that brooded upon the face of the deep long before He began creation. He is The One Who lives 'with' Christians, and INSIDE OF Spirit filled Christians.Yes, they will, when we are in The Presence of The Lord, Who is The Miracle Worker.As I said, if you had this 'perfect' knowledge of God that you believe the Apostles had, you'd be teaching me how to walk more closely with The Holy Ghost, not denying His Power or Authority.Untrue. Many instances of The Holy Spirit Baptism occurred in The Bible without any hands being lain upon the belivers, much less those of the Elite Twelve.Yes, we do. The five-fold ministry has not been re-called, and will never be. This Body is Eternal. The Lord is Complete, and He is not a parapalegic.Yes, and He will never stop confirming It.Haven't you read that Jesus was more pleased with those who would believe upon Him without ever having seen Him? Don't you think that those who continue to search for Him, and then find Him, and become filled with His Holy Ghost, without having any Apostles' hands laid upon Him will please Him the same way? The Holy Spirit is The One Who imparted Himself, and His Gifts. You seem to be of the same spirit as Simon was back in Acts 8. He thought there was something special the Apostles could sell him. You've bought into the same lying thought that he had in his heart.Amen.I have imparted gifts by my own hands, so I guess that it is you who is in error.

The Holy Ghost is alive and well, and waiting for you to answer His Knock upon the door of your heart. :thumb:

A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; (Titus 3:10). I see no reason to continue on this discussion. :noid: :kookoo: :jump:


JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

How Does The Holy Spirit Work In Christians?

How Does The Holy Spirit Work In Christians?

The Bible teaches that God dwells in his people. "And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (2 Cor. 6:16). This says that not only does God dwell in us, it is also true that he walks in us. It is also clearly taught that Christ dwells in Christians. "That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love" (Eph. 3:17). The same language is used to teach us that the Holy Spirit dwells in Christians. In Gal. 3:2, Paul asks the Galatians: "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Rom. 8:9 says, "But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Thus the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit dwells in Christians and this is repeatedly taught. The same Greek words are used of the three. The manner in which the Holy Spirit dwells in Christians is not explained in the scriptures. George Washington said, "United we stand, divided we fall." As long as the American people are true to the words, the spirit of George Washington will live in them. When our children follow our principles it is to that extent that we are dwelling in our children. Christ dwells in us to the extent that we follow the teaching of Christ (Gal. 2:20). The Holy Spirit dwells in us to the extent that we follow the teachings of the Spirit (Eph. 5:17,18; Col. 3:16). Most of us can understand how Christ can dwell in us by faith through the word but when it comes to the Holy Spirit people get some weird ideas. As God and Christ dwell in us through the word, so the Holy Spirit dwells in us through his word.

There is a difference between what the Holy Spirit does to us, and what he does in behalf of, or for us. We read, for example, that "The Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is in the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom. 8:26,27). The groaning here is the burdened soul who, not knowing in his distress what to pray for, can only groan in spirit, and say, "Lord, Lord" and the Holy Spirit picks up these groanings and interprets them to the Father in terms of the soul's need. We note that the intercession which the Spirit does is an operation for us before the throne of grace, and not upon us. It is, of course, true, that people are prepared through circumstances, to listen to the gospel. This may be because of an accident, the death of a loved one, the realization of approaching death and other things of life. But no one will know what the will of God unto salvation is until he hears the word of God.

In Matt. 12:31,32 we read about blaspheming the Holy Spirit; Heb. 6:4-6 speaks of despising the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:3 speaks of lying to the Holy Spirit; Acts 7:51 speaks of resisting the Holy Spirit; 1 Cor. 6:19,20; 1 Cor. 3:16,17 speaks of defiling the temple of the body and the church which is against the Holy Spirit; 1 Thess. 5:19 speaks of quenching the Holy Spirit; and, Eph. 4:30 speaks of grieving the Holy Spirit. When we fail to heed the message of the Holy Spirit through the word we are resisting the Holy Spirit and if we persist in this action we will be lost eternally.

Let us submit to the will of the Lord and fill our life with the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control (Gal. 5:22,23). If we thus sow to the Spirit we shall of the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).

JustAChristian

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by lighthouse

The truth steps on toes, Aimiel. It offends people, because they don't want to believe that tehy are wrong, when the truth is, only God is right in all things.

Yes, it does. But love is easily entreatable. Too many people quickly forget that we're not to pursue stepping on toes, but to pursue peace, though not by compromise. Yes, God is The Only One Who knows and is right in all things, but we're not to look for ways to step on toes.

Romans 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Aimiel]

Re: How Does The Holy Spirit Work In Christians?

Re: How Does The Holy Spirit Work In Christians?

Originally posted by JustAChristian

The Bible teaches that God dwells in his people. "And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (2 Cor. 6:16). This says that not only does God dwell in us, it is also true that he walks in us.

This was written by a man who was Spirit-filled. He was talking to other Spirit-Filled believers.

Paul laid hands on believers, after they were re-baptized in The Name of Jesus, and they then received The Holy Ghost.

Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

It is clear that a man who is not one of the original twelve Apostles laid hands upon others, and they received The Holy Ghost, spoke in tongues and prophecied. This clearly shows us that the same is available to us, since God is no respecter of persons, and His Gifts which He has given to The Church are available to all. Thank God for His Great Gifts.
:thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

Re: The Bible Says....

Re: The Bible Says....

Originally posted by JustAChristian

A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; (Titus 3:10). I see no reason to continue on this discussion. :noid: :kookoo: :jump:


JustAChristian

This comment from a 'religionist' who knows 'about' God, by head knowledge only, I consider to be a compliment. Thank you. :thumb:

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by Aimiel

You're quite welcome. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. What has he said about baptism that you think I might have expressed any disagreement with? I don't find where anyone ought to differ with anyone over sprinkling, splashing, dunking or staying dry. I don't see that it was designed to be something for us to scrap over. I therefore try not to step on anyone's 'religious' toes. :thumb:

I guess I made an assumption and you know what happens when you assume :chuckle: My bad.

 

[JustAChristian]

What About "Feel Good Religion."

What About "Feel Good Religion."

Who are noble bible students? Those that exibit a zeal for not only knowing the truth but who are willing to examine every teaching that came their way. Luke says of the Bereans: “And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.� (Acts 17:10-11)

They were more noble that the Jews at Thessalonica.

They received the word of God and did not depend on feelings or some man made method of worship.

Their intrest in scripture was on a daily basis. They did not resolve to mimicing TV preachers of feel good religions; better felt than read as some have called it.

They were not quick to discount any doctrine but searched or examined each to see if they had credibility.

When disciples decide to approach the Bible as the Bereans did they will learn God's Will for their life. If they continue to follow the "feel good" style religion they will continue in darkness.

 

[Aimiel]

Re: What About "Feel Good Religion."

Re: What About "Feel Good Religion."

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Who are noble bible students?

Perhaps those who take this verse to heart:

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

And who believe that they will find The Lord, and not just knowledge 'about' Him, by reading His Word. He said that we would find Him, if we search with all of our hearts, and He hasn't been proven wrong yet. :thumb: