Derf
Well-known member
Hi Derf , and 1 Thess 4:13-18 fits the bill !!
Verse 15-18 describe it !!
dan p
Here we see that there will be some people who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends so there will already be people in heaven when He descends:
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess.4:14-16).
Those are described as being dead in Christ or which sleep in Jesus will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends and they will be raised in new bodies first. From this we know that the saints will be in heaven when the living saints will be caught up at the rapture.
Thanks, Jerry and Dan.
What I've been trying to point out is that when it says Jesus will bring with Him those that are asleep, the text is accurate whether Jesus brings them from heaven to the earth, or from the clouds to the earth. Thus, that verse by itself is not a proof of spirits in heaven prior to that point in time.
Let's dissect it a bit.
[1Th 4:13 NKJV] But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
This first verse introduces the topic of Paul's essay--it's about those who have fallen asleep, and Paul is trying to build up hope in those that are still "alive and remain" (from vs. 17).
[1Th 4:14 NKJV] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
This verse explains that Jesus will bring with Him those who sleep, as both of you pointed out. But it also clarifies what it means to "bring with Him those who are asleep" by saying it will be just as Jesus died and rose again--which He did bodily.
[1Th 4:15 NKJV] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
This verse says that those that are alive when He comes will not get to Jesus prior to those that have died prior to His coming.
[1Th 4:16 NKJV] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
This verse expounds on the previous one to say that the dead will rise before the one who are still alive (thus they will "precede" the alive, rather than the other way around.
[1Th 4:17 NKJV] Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Now we see that we shall catch up with the early risers (the dead in Christ--the preceders), and we shall meet Him in the clouds/in the air.
[1Th 4:18 NKJV] Therefore comfort one another with these words.
This may be the most important verse, where Paul concludes his essay with a repetition of his opening thought--that he is writing these things to comfort the believers about their dead loved ones. Here we see that THESE ARE THE WORDS we should use to comfort one another. "THESE WORDS" are that the dead in Christ will be raised at the coming of the Lord. Nowhere in "THESE WORDS" does it say that we should comfort one another by saying the dead are already in Christ's presence.
So, when we are comforting a mourning friend who just lost a believing spouse, we are going against what Paul says when we say, "Your loved one is now in heaven looking down on us."
Keep in mind that I'm not saying the spirits of our dear departed ones are NOT in heaven spiritually--I don't know whether that's the case or not. But the reason I don't know that is because the bible doesn't say that, especially here in 1 Thess 4.