ECT When where angels created?
- Thread starter Tambora
- Start date
Interplanner
Well-known member
is that a typo or are you trying to ask 2 questions at once.
Gen 1:1 is an appellate line, a title. It is not action in the story. Cp 5:1, 6:9, etc. We don't know how much time the earth was in this condition. We do know that 'tohu wa-bohu' means a judgement took place, and that 2 Peter 2 and Jude say that the rebel angels were placed in the chains of darkness, and you wonder if he meant that. Because it is backstory to Gen 3, because Satan arrives as a diminutive dragon (a snake), as though restricted that way from what he was, and not wanting the new creatures of God to have dominion.
Gen 1:1 is an appellate line, a title. It is not action in the story. Cp 5:1, 6:9, etc. We don't know how much time the earth was in this condition. We do know that 'tohu wa-bohu' means a judgement took place, and that 2 Peter 2 and Jude say that the rebel angels were placed in the chains of darkness, and you wonder if he meant that. Because it is backstory to Gen 3, because Satan arrives as a diminutive dragon (a snake), as though restricted that way from what he was, and not wanting the new creatures of God to have dominion.
I'm with ya on the rebellion and the time thing.
Not so much on those fallen angels who were imprisoned - not all were.
And "...the serpent" mention there in Gen. 3 has to do with the fact that He gave off light.
Not only was he formerly Lucifer - the Light Bearer - The guy literally gave off a bright light - but all angels do.
What Genesis is describing is a shiny as a serpentine like quality his light had taken on, given his by then warped mind and its' resulting, slithering words and behavior.
Paul also describes this shiny aspect of him and his fallen "ministers" and their behavior.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Sounds good to me. :thumb:
ttruscott
Well-known member
Well, I agree and I see support in the fact that some self and other aware people sang HIS praises at the creation of the physical universe. In fact, I believe that this was written about everyone in Rom 1:20 which claims we all have no excuse since we all saw HIS divinity and HIS power from what was made! Since in all history we see no one has ever come to understand YHWH's divinity and power from a study of nature and the stars, I suggest "what was made" must refer to the creation of the universe, not to a study of nature which has never produced our lack of excuse.
That part of Romans is talking about Genesis 11.
Paul is laying out how the Gentiles ended up without God in the world, see also, the latter end of Acts 17.
He then follows that with how Israel screwed up also...and so on...
Romans 1:18 thru 3:20 are a history of God's various past testings of mankind He was using to show that no one is inherently righteous.
How that no matter what standard of righteousness He put before man - man blew it.
Then, in Romans 3:21 forward, all that proven; he begins to go into the ONLY hope man has - His Glorious Son's Precious Blood ALONE.
YAY!
Seems reasonable since angels were singing and shouting for joy when the foundation of the earth was made.
Job 38:4-7 KJV
(4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
(5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
(6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
(7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
The Angels of God were never created.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ttruscott
Well-known member
Romans1:20 refers to people. What people? Romans1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. The godless and wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness, of course.
Since the sinful elect good seed also suppress the truth by their wickedness, I accept this refers to them also... they too are without excuse when they are in their wicked rebellion to GOD and repudiating HIM.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Is not angels an interpretative speculation of the words "the sons of God" since there is no scriptural reason to reject it might also mean the to be human sons of GOD, not yet born as human?
Regarding your "sinful elect" comment, I neither hold to Calvinism, nor to Armenianism.
The extremist of either side will beg to differ, of course.
And that part of Romans begins with why ALL mankind is deserving ONLY of God's wrath - that ALL have EARNED.
Paul then goes into how the GENTILE ended up that way; followed by how the JEW ALSO ended up that way.
Then, in 3:20, he returns to where He left off with in 1:16, 17; and proceeds to go into HOW and ON WHAT BASIS is "the gospel of Christ...BOTH the Righteousnes AND the Power of God unto salvation to everyone THAT BELIEVETH..."
Because man cannot be singing and shouting for joy before they were created.
Man was created on the 6th day, and were not present at the laying of the foundation of the earth.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Derf
Well-known member
Good quote, Tambora.
I'd like to postulate that it's possible the foundations of the earth, though "laid" on the first or second day, weren't "fastened" until the sun was created. Our current understanding of the Earth/Sun connection says that the Sun's gravity holds the Earth in place, like an invisible tether, suggesting "fastening". And the Sun wasn't made until day 4, the same day as the stars and the moon. We're not told when the planets were made, but it would make sense that it was that same day.
"Morning stars" is an interesting thing to talk about. It might be the planets, as we call Venus the "morning star", and Mercury might also be considered one. If God made the moon and planets and sun at about the same time, then that could be when the foundations of the earth were "fastened".
The sons of God are presumably the angels, so they had to have been made by Day 4 at the very latest.
Neh 9:6 seems to confirm the angels were created along with the heavens, and if they are in heaven or on earth or in the sea, then Exodus 20:11 confirms that everything in those spheres was made in those 6 days.
[Neh 9:6 KJV] 6 Thou, [even] thou, [art] LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all [things] that [are] therein, the seas, and all that [is] therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
[Exo 20:11 KJV] 11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
[Exo 20:11 KJV] 11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
I suppose that the "heaven of heavens" could be a place beyond our universe, where God dwells and where angels are there with Him, in which case it's hard to say if they were included with the things in "heaven".
Interplanner
Well-known member
Those sons of God were already around.
Creation is not about the creation of Paradise, that place already existed, and the angels assisted. From the time He says 'Let us make man in our image' to when He had angels guarding Eden after the Fall, they existed without any statement of having been created.
A lot of theologians suggests that Satan had already been cast out of Heaven, which is why he was in the garden with Adam and Eve- that there was already a fall, essentially, and Satan spread it to man.
A lot of theologians suggests that Satan had already been cast out of Heaven, which is why he was in the garden with Adam and Eve- that there was already a fall, essentially, and Satan spread it to man.
IsaacKingsley
New member
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Genesis:2:1
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Genesis:2:1
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