What would make you Catholic?

[Cedarbay]

Non-Catholics - what evidence would convince you that the Catholic Church was and is the Church founded by Christ?

I believe that the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church is founded on Christ.

Saints from the first century until today, are humbled to be counted as worthy of salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

[glassjester]

"Perfectly" and"thoroughly" Pay attention to God. You can do a search on scriptures that speak of themselves as authoritative, or better yet read the Bible often and the chapters and verses will come readily to mind.

Hello Lon,

Did you assume I was unaware of these verses? Worse yet, did you assume my Church was not aware of them?

Some issues with your statement above, as well as your quoted verses:

You said: You can do a search on scriptures that speak of themselves as authoritative.
I respond: I am not denying the authority of Scripture. We agree on that.

You said: read the Bible often and the chapters and verses will readily come to mind.
I respond: It's naive at best, and condescending at worst, to assume I, or any Christian, would not already be familiar with the verses you quoted.


You quoted: 2 Timothy 3:15 - 17

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I respond to Verse 15: Paul is not arguing for the formal and material sufficiency of Scripture. If you use this verse for that purpose, you are arguing for the sufficiency of the OT only, as this is the Scripture to which Paul refers.

I respond to Verse 16: Again - profitable does not mean sufficient.

I respond to (my favorite of the three) Verse 17: Scripture is materially sufficient, indeed. All doctrine is implicitly and/or explicitly taught in the written Word. In this way, it most certainly thoroughly equips the man of God.
Just as I can walk into any Guitar Center, and they can thoroughly equip me with merchandise better than anything Hendrix had. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna walk out of there playing Purple Haze. What am I still lacking, despite being thoroughly equipped? Instruction. Proper training. A teacher. Lessons.

Make sense?

 

[intojoy]

Non-Catholics - what evidence would convince you that the Catholic Church was and is the Church founded by Christ?

I'd do it for the 70 women deal the Arabs offer

 

[HisServant]

Just another Straw Man Fallacy for HS. Pathetic.

Its historically accurate... and the truth. Im sorry satan has blinded your heart and mind so completely.

 

[HisServant]

The fact is that we have no idea whatsoever who will be saved and who won't. In any case, they are formal members of Christ's one historic Church.


Post your proof.

So you believe some of your saints and popes are in hell because you just dont know. If that is the truth... why do you pray to them?

 

[Cruciform]

Similar tactics of most apologists'/evangelists' of the RCC.

Feel free, then, to disprove my statements in Post #520 above. I eagerly await your informed reply.

 

[Cruciform]

Its historically accurate...and the truth.

It's "true" that [1] the God served by Catholics "is not Jesus' Father," and [2] that that God "is purely a Roman Catholic invention"? If so, you should have no problem actually proving your dual claim. Go ahead, then, and post your proof.

I'm sorry satan has blinded your heart and mind so completely.

Right back at you. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

So you believe some of your saints and popes are in hell because you just dont know.

My statement referred specifically to those still living on the earth, not to those who have passed on. Try again.

 

[HisServant]

It's "true" that [1] the God served by Catholics "is not Jesus' Father," and [2] that that God "is purely a Roman Catholic invention"? If so, you should have no problem actually proving your dual claim. Go ahead, then, and post your proof.


Right back at you. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

So you must think that Islam's claim that their god is the same as Christian's god... co-opting must be a valid tactic for you.

Yet both your gods and what you think the after life consists of are vastly different from Jewish tradition and scripture.

It must agitate you to no end that God chose the Jews instead of the Romans.

Your later comment also makes no sense.... if you font know someones fate during life...its stupid to thing you know it after death.....

I personally believe that there are only an extremely small number of Romanists in heaven... and they are their in spite of your church and only because of God's election and compassion...

 

[Jerome84]

Non-Catholics - what evidence would convince you that the Catholic Church was and is the Church founded by Christ?

Only Jesus knows what church he founded. The important thing is the wisdom he tried to bring to all mankind. Love, forgiveness and peace.

If Jesus heard and saw all Christian religious arguing his heart would probably break into 1000 pieces. Did anyone listen to him?

 

[Lon]

How in the world did you arrive at those gigantic, glaring Non Sequiturs?

• My choice was man-made. What I chose is not.
• Similarly (but with a vital difference): Your choice was man-made. And so is what you chose.

Are you able to grasp this yet? :think:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Yep. You humanly chose your church. I humanly chose mine. God is Sovereign over those choices. Both your choice and mine were man-made. -Lon

 

[Cruciform]

So you must think that Islam's claim that their god is the same as Christian's god...

Islam claims no such thing, in fact exactly the opposite. The Catholic Church, however, recognizes that the God that Muslims follow incompletely and incorrectly is the same God that Catholics follow completely and correctly.

Your later comment also makes no sense.... if you font know someones fate during life...its stupid to thing you know it after death...

That might be true, except that the Holy Spirit through Christ's Church has revealed a few past believers who have indeed died in a state of grace, and so are known to be saved---we commonly refer to them as Saints.

I personally believe...

Entirely irrelevant, since neither you nor your favored recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect possesses any doctrinal authority whatsoever, a quality---according to the New Testament---possessed by Christ's one historic Church alone.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Yep. You humanly chose your church. I humanly chose mine. God is Sovereign over those choices. Both your choice and mine were man-made. -Lon

Which is precisely what I have repeatedly affirmed, so your point in restating it is a mystery. The fact remains that WHAT we have each chosen either is, or is not, that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. I have shown that the Catholic Church qualifies as such, while you have failed to demonstrate the same for your preferred man-made sect.

 

[HisServant]

Islam claims no such thing, in fact exactly the opposite. The Catholic Church, however, recognizes that the God that Muslims follow incompletely and incorrectly is the same God that Catholics follow completely and correctly.


That might be true, except that the Holy Spirit through Christ's Church has revealed a few past believers who have indeed died in a state of grace, and so are known to be saved---we commonly refer to them as Saints.


Entirely irrelevant, since neither you nor your favored recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect possesses any doctrinal authority whatsoever, a quality---according to the New Testament---possessed by Christ's one historic Church alone.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

The only authority your church holds is the authority granted to it by its members.... it holds no divine authority since it historically is not the church Jesus founded.

Then there is the messy issue of its unspeakably horrible deeds throughout history.

You will know Christians by their fruit, and your churches fruits are sorely lacking.

Anyhow, you bore me with your cognitive dissonance.

You ignore fact after historical fact after historical fact that shows your church to be a fake... an invention of Rome alone. Yet you refuse to see the truth....

You should go back to whatever school you graduated from and demand your money back, because they failed you.

 

[Lon]

Hello Lon,

Did you assume I was unaware of these verses? Worse yet, did you assume my Church was not aware of them?

Some issues with your statement above, as well as your quoted verses:

You said: You can do a search on scriptures that speak of themselves as authoritative.
I respond: I am not denying the authority of Scripture. We agree on that.

You said: read the Bible often and the chapters and verses will readily come to mind.
I respond: It's naive at best, and condescending at worst, to assume I, or any Christian, would not already be familiar with the verses you quoted.

Realize I'm not just talking to you at that point. There is one Catholic who vocalized he does not read his bible, so I deemed it important to state this not only for you, but others reading as well. No offense was intended.

You quoted: 2 Timothy 3:15 - 17

I respond to Verse 15: Paul is not arguing for the formal and material sufficiency of Scripture. If you use this verse for that purpose, you are arguing for the sufficiency of the OT only, as this is the Scripture to which Paul refers.

:nono: That is a tragic assumption. It says "ALL" scripture and the churches had gospels and copied letters at this point in time. Paul would have been aware of Peter's letter calling his "scripture" as well.

I respond to Verse 16: Again - profitable does not mean sufficient.

2 Timothy 3:17

I respond to (my favorite of the three) Verse 17: Scripture is materially sufficient, indeed. All doctrine is implicitly and/or explicitly taught in the written Word. In this way, it most certainly thoroughly equips the man of God.

:up:

Just as I can walk into any Guitar Center, and they can thoroughly equip me with merchandise better than anything Hendrix had. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna walk out of there playing Purple Haze. What am I still lacking, despite being thoroughly equipped? Instruction. Proper training. A teacher. Lessons.

You aren't 'thoroughly' equipped if you cannot, but God says His word can 'thoroughly' equip him.
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Make sense?

Yes, but we are talking about not merely the tools. God provides those by Spiritual gifting and rejuvenation. The Scriptures ARE the instruction.

 

[Cruciform]

The only authority your church holds is the authority granted to it by its members.... it holds no divine authority since it historically is not the church Jesus founded.

Your claim is directly refuted here. In any case, the entirely non-authoritative opinions (traditions) that you have been fed by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect are noted.

Then there is the messy issue of its unspeakably horrible deeds throughout history.

If historical events---rather than doctrines---can disqualify the Catholic Church from being Christ's one historic Church (and they can't), then Protestantism is necessarily disqualified as well, and Jesus lied when he declared that the gates of hell would never prevail against his one historic Church (Mt. 16:18; 1 Tim. 3:15).

You will know Christians by their fruit, and your churches fruits are sorely lacking.

Where does the Bible state that "You will know Christians by their fruit"? :think:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[glassjester]

Realize I'm not just talking to you at that point. There is one Catholic who vocalized he does not read his bible, so I deemed it important to state this not only for you, but others reading as well. No offense was intended.

None taken. I'll cool my jets.

:nono: That is a tragic assumption. It says "ALL" scripture and the churches had gospels and copied letters at this point in time. Paul would have been aware of Peter's letter calling his "scripture" as well.

But Lon, when I said Paul had to be referring to the OT, I was responding to verse 15. In 15, Paul is referring to the scriptures that Timothy has had since childhood! Surely, these scriptures did not include the NT, or the very letter we're discussing. He does not say ALL Scripture until Verse 16, at which point he could very well be referring to Scripture that had yet to be written.

Yes, but we are talking about not merely the tools. God provides those by Spiritual gifting and rejuvenation. The Scriptures ARE the instruction.

You are arguing, then, for the material and formal sufficiency of Scripture, yes?

 

[glassjester]

Yep. You humanly chose your church. I humanly chose mine. God is Sovereign over those choices. Both your choice and mine were man-made. -Lon

Sorry to butt in, but this is a silly point to try to make.

Cruciform is saying his choice is man-made, but he chose an objectively true Church.

A fallible human can believe something that is infallibly true. Is that not possible?

Try this: What is 1 + 1?

A) 2 B) 4 C) 6


If you picked A, and I picked B, can I really claim that both our choices are equally valid since they were both made by fallible human minds?

Or is one of those fallible human choices (yours and mine) objectively correct?

 

[Lon]

But Lon, when I said Paul had to be referring to the OT, I was responding to verse 15. In 15, Paul is referring to the scriptures that Timothy has had since childhood! Surely, these scriptures did not include the NT, or the very letter we're discussing. He does not say ALL Scripture until Verse 16, at which point he could very well be referring to Scripture that had yet to be written.

Good observations, and yes all scripture would refer to the posterity of them, and in fact, Paul quotes them as well (see below with Galatians 6:6 for one such example).

You are arguing, then, for the material and formal sufficiency of Scripture, yes?

Well, sola Scriptura rather than solo scriptura. IOW, those who are to be the leaders, must use and adhere to those scriptures as well as be able to strongly tie all observances to them. It also allows for the younger to rebuke, but not harshly, their elder. The RC doesn't allow that, and the authoritarianism is perfected in rationalization rather than actual, thus traditions may be faulty as well. So what I mean by Formal sufficiency is 1) a bit different than most because I do believe we must be correctable and so orthodox if not Orthodox. I believe God used the RC and that our ties to them, yet provide with councils, creeds, and doctrine. However, whereas scripture is not up to scrutiny, both tradition and elders are, for the Protestant. 2) In that sense, yes, Formal sufficiency as well, but not alone. The student must share all things with his/her teacher. Galatians 6:6 (which btw shows that Paul was familiar with both Matthew 10 and Luke 6:40) -Lon

 

[Lon]

Which is precisely what I have repeatedly affirmed, so your point in restating it is a mystery. The fact remains that WHAT we have each chosen either is, or is not, that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. I have shown that the Catholic Church qualifies as such, while you have failed to demonstrate the same for your preferred man-made sect.

Because it is only a platitude at that point, which is what I am belaboring. It is you asserting one and then using some crafted language to humanize my decision. God is Sovereign over both. You expect to find an institution rather than a body, established by Christ. Such is an organizational expectation. Okay, you found what you were looking for. Great, this thread is about "why" I, particularly am not buying into the Catholic church or this line of thinking so that is why I restate. You are trying to assert something as a 'fact' that isn't seen as one, by me. -Lon