so a reformed person
is
a calvinist
who
does not want to defend calvinism
is
a calvinist
who
does not want to defend calvinism
What would make you Catholic?
- Thread starter glassjester
- Start date
glassjester
Well-known member
Cruciform
New member
I'll make it easy for you. I am---objectively speaking---neither "crotchety," "old," "nor with "a chip on my shoulder." That is an objective fact. Therefore, if you have read other motivations or traits into my posts, then you have imagined---or, as you say, "ascertained"---falsely.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Cruciform
New member
The bottom line. :thumb:
Lon
Well-known member
All the above. Is this suddenly going to become a Calvinist hate thread? Fine. I'm nowhere near as sensitive or defensive regarding it as Catholics are. A little shocked by angst against it, but okay with it. Go for it. I will carefully and graciously give you any feedback over it you desire. I'd have been ousted as a Jansenist anyway so there is no going back to Catholicism on so many fronts now.
Last edited:
Lon
Well-known member
I constantly perceive you otherwise and have had reps indicate that others do too, as well as in thread comments even in this one with other posters. Again, you can either dismiss it or own it. I really don't care which, cruci, but I'm not a slouch when it comes to paying attention. You can try and make that everybody else's problem but that only makes you that much more crotchety in my mind. You can assume "falsely" all you like. Even Catholics have commented on it in the past. If you 'could' convince me of your man-preferred-choice-of-churches-that-has-nothing-over-on-me, I'd be proselytized, even with your terrible bed-side manner. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Yes. You think that's 'subjective' rather than objective, but it's not. It is sour fruit and certainly a Catholic should be more aware of that problem and appreciate it more than sola fide Protestants. There are all kinds of scriptures that readily come to mind: Salt losing its saltiness, light becoming darkness, by fruit you'll know them, etc. etc. etc. The gospel produces good fruit. We all have to worry over poor fruit in our churches, but the RC hasn't well distanced itself from even its distance let alone most recent past. I understand you are defensive about these, as I would be but you asked what keeps us from you and I am candid. If you don't want to know, don't ask, but I'm not going to return to those walls.
Matthew 7:16 is objective, not subjective.
Lon
Well-known member
Let me say a few things about Calvinism.
1) I agree with the doctrines of Calvinism, not all John Calvin did or said.
Though I have read and appreciate Institutes, I'm most interested in what is biblical and what is not. I may or may not agree with you on issues regarding John Calvin himself which you might use to call into question my John Calvinism, but not Reformed theology. The distinction being I indeed have the same biblical conclusions, but am most interested in them being biblical, rather than John Calvin's. I do not believe one is guilty by association, though it is often true. Modern day Catholics are not guilty of the Crusades, per say, unless they are caught defending them or something.
2) That means I'll answer questions about Calvinism and am ready to give an answer both for the hope that is in my and how it is related to the specific systematic theology I embrace and I may be able to field concerns about John Calvin the man, as well.
3) Defend, sort of, but not to the point of shoving it down a throat.
It took me a long time to become a Calvinist, and it took a lot of scripture reading. I think Scripture makes a Calvinist. In many ways, an Arminian is yet a young Calvinist who is working out His theology with fear and trembling. Many never become Calvinists. I'm okay with that. 1John 3:1-3 is the end of all of our hope and promise.
4) While I believe Calvinism/Reformed doctrine, it is a systematic theology, which is the way we categorize truth, not a necessary disagreement on those actual truths themselves. Because of this, I am quite a bit different from a lot of other people who argue their systematic theologies as if they are the saving point of the gospel. That doesn't tend to play out. Many Catholics are saved (some ensuing things happen as a result). Many Reformed are saved (same thing). Many Arminian are saved. A good many of these are not. They miss sharing the gospel for arguing their man-preferred chosen doctrine, but this isn't the gospel. However, this is not to say all who argue doctrine have not been saved by the gospel, they just either feel it is an important discussion or do so misunderstanding that systematized theology can be wrong, yet a person be saved holding to those wrong overall categories. As such, I have no real problem with one opposed to Calvinism. I was somewhat opposed to tenants of it before wrestling with scripture over those that led to my eventual embrace.
5) Perhaps it is worth noting, along the lines of the OP question, that scripture prevents me from becoming Catholic.
I am indeed a Sola Scriptura kind-a-guy, as well as sola fide, sola gratia ( & solus Christus and soli dio Gloria), which most who are not Catholic also hold, based off of scripture and in opposition to Catholic practice and teaching. The five solae were a clear declaration against the query of the OP.
glassjester
Well-known member
You're talking about sour individuals, here. One swallow does not a summer make.
Did you then search out the "nicest" church, and declare it to be Christ's true Church?
Christianity is not a congeniality contest. Politeness is not a measure of truth. Jesus' actions often left people feeling "sour." In fact, they killed Him for it.
The "sour fruits" you fled from in my Church may, for all you know, be completely different than the sour fruits Christ spoke of. I get the feeling He had higher things in mind than strict Sister Mary Margaret at Pope Pius High.
Lon
Well-known member
Scripture begs to disagree. While I acquiesce that it is not and cannot be the only reason, it is certainly to be viewed, and especially to a works-kind-of person. It is a bit odd that we flip here on Sola gratia, but I'm just saying the Gospel does indeed create a holy People. I agree with you regarding a summer analogy, on an individual basis, but perhaps you could enumerate the 'good' the RC has done. It would perhaps be fitting for the thread to do so but perhaps caution is advisable in such a thread.
Regardless, it is but one accusation, and I am merely embracing it from you and Cruci rather than skipping over it. It is but one of the 5 solae in concern, which means it is not the only reason, whether it be feeling oriented or not. I yet believe it an objective analysis, but I'm okay if you two wish to contend it. Feelings aren't always to be shunned, but rather substantiated.
Let me try and give more objectivity, though again if there is contention over the matter, this concern of the 5 Solae isn't a house of cards to be stood or fallen, imho...but is more addressed to my alleged subjectivity regarding them. I'm not sure why Protestants are often accused of it, but it seems to be over this authoritarian view of AS, as if one rejecting it must somehow be subjective and emotional to do so. I certainly do have subjective as well as objective reasons for not being Catholic. The knuckle-cracking isn't something that I'm hung up on, but it was certainly one of the reasons my family left the RC. My grandmother, grandfather, and uncle remained Catholic. Over half of my extended family were/are Catholic including a great-uncle who was a priest.
The last two solae, Solus Christus and Soli Dio Gloria, are about the problem with AS doctrine and Catholic authority-structure. I do not believe from my reading of scripture, that AS is found within Biblical precedent and Sola Scriptura is closely tied to being against the doctrine. In connection with this, is Sola Fide (faith alone). All of the Solae intertwine, and thus it isn't just 'my' feeling, but a scripturally educated embrace of the 5 Solae that render trust, not in sour or better fruit, but in Christ and God alone as expressed in the 5 solae and against Catholicism. I hope that much at least, is appreciable. -Lon
Last edited:
Brother Vinny
Active member
See here, Catholics. The printing press basically doomed you and your Orthodox kindred to the dustbins of history. There's no need for Church authority or oral tradition now that everybody can possess a copy of the Bible and make what they will of it. Off with you, now.
with more than 30 thousand different interpretations
we need someone to settle the arguments
Lon
Well-known member
I sympathize BUT the EO Coptic churches and other churches far from Rome always did disagree, hence a perpetuation of an idea by Catholics that isn't really tenable. It is an intuition rather than true. Catholics are more prone to wives tales
and superstition because of it.
Note on TOL where we Protestants agree and disagree. For what it is worth, I come up "catholic" on some denominational tests, even though I am thoroughly Protestant. We get along most of the time because we hold between 80-90% in common with Catholic/Orthodox doctrine. It is the 10 to 20% of contention, such as must be expressed in a thread like this, that keeps a chasm and distance. I'm glad the subject is breached, but such accentuates those differences, often uncomfortably. Needs to be? Yes.
Brother Vinny
Active member
Why does there need to be arguments?
You think Jesus during His time on earth agonized over the people who interpreted His message a little off like the poor fellow in this cartoon?
Lon
Well-known member
But as to structure and practice, it is opposed, which they view as fundamentally different in theology, as do Protestants.
On that point, they have rejected RC tradition.
I support Catholic ideology on some of these differences, agree with them on others, and disagree with both of you when it comes to the 5 Solae.
Lon
Well-known member
Note from the links, that they distance from that sentiment and are even bothered by it. It isn't that I'm trying to stir contention, nor even seek in comparison for Protestant favor, just seek to disclose what is true and give substantial reference.
Right Divider
Body part
God can do that just fine.