Time is NOT the "result" of anything. It is a convention for discussing the sequence and duration of events.
That is NOT what "time means". That is a lame idea Dave.
Correct. It is a convention for discussing the sequence and duration of events.
Duh, Thanks Captain Obvious.
That is confused. Movement is a description of the location of two or more objects over time. A reference is chosen arbitrarily to describe that movement.
Not!
It is, even if you don't recognize it. Think of an hourglass. Or a wind-up clock. Or a Timex. Or, especially, an atomic clock. All if them are measuring a steady progression of order to disorder.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but if time as we know it always involves a decrease in order, does such a concept exist in the new heavens and new earth? Maybe it does, and God has to periodically wind up the universe every so often.
Such must be contrasted with:
No, that is just a list of events that happen to be examples of things going from order to disorder and not all of them are even that (the oscillations measured by atomic clocks is literally atoms moving back and forth from a higher energy state to a lower one and back again).
Entropy is only the tendency toward lower energy states. It does not state that everything always moves in that direction. Further, just because fires always eventually run out of fuel here in this physical universe doesn't imply that you couldn't ever have a fire burning in Heaven because there's no entropy and that therefore the fire couldn't ever be starved of fuel, nor does it mean that you'll be able to have a fire without providing fuel.
Perhaps. I see no reason to believe that entropy is a result of Adam's fall. Adam would have needed to eat before he sinned, as would have all the animals. Plants would have produced seed, and germinated and grown and then produced fruit before Adam fell or else there wouldn't have been any tending of the garden that needed done. It seems just as plausible to me that entropy is just the way things work and that an existence without it would be unworkable. That, however, is an assessment from within the paradigm of living in this physical universe. Our new existence may be sufficiently different that such observations and speculations are just an exercise in ignorance.
The word "month" is just the sound we make to give name to a particular cycle. It happens to be the time it takes for the Moon to go through all of its phases. Revelation, as well as the rest of the bible, was written by and for human beings that understand what period of time a month represents and so it would be weird for John (or God) to use a different term other than "month" to give name to a period of time that was similar (for all we know identical) to a lunar month.
No, they are NOT! None of those things is "measuring entropy".
Time elapses even when there is no clock to measure it!
They aren't "measuring" it, per se, but they are examples of entropic systems.
It isn't about the order but the energy state. The sand in the top has more potential energy than the sand at the bottom. The sand falls to the bottom and the potential energy is converted to kinetic energy, sound and heat due to friction. To reset that sort of clock you have to convert the energy in your muscles back into potential energy by working against gravity (and a slight amount of air resistance) by flipping it over and thereby adding the energy to the system.
"Disorderly" is a poor choice of words but these are still entropic systems in that they are moving from a higher energy state to a lower one. (The atoms are actually oscillated back and forth but not without some loss of energy.
So long as events transpire. Quite so.
My point was that they are not measuring entropy.
Indeed, so again... not measuring entropy, right?
Perhaps, but regardless, there are no clocks that are measuring entropy.... correct?
We are in agreement. I was just clarifying things.My point was that they are not measuring entropy.
Entropy is everywhere in our universe, but there is not a single clock that is measuring it.
Indeed, so again... not measuring entropy, right?
Perhaps, but regardless, there are no clocks that are measuring entropy.... correct?
Agreed, and none of them have anything to do with measurements of entropy.
But the way the atoms are moved to a higher energy state is by human intervention, which is a recognizable anti-entropic force, just like God is. And after they are pushed (pumped) to the higher energy, they regularly fall to the lower energy state, pretty much like an hourglass being inverted when the sand all reaches the bottom compartment.
How do you know?
And God doesn't have a way to measure time?
So He can know whether a day is like a thousand years and vice versa.
I don't know. Maybe time doesn't matter in God's domain, though I think you've argued against such before. Most longer times in the bible are marked with a beginning point and a duration, like "in the twelfth year of the reign of King Joe...", or "from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah comes will be 70 weeks". (Neither of the above are direct quotes.) God does the same, it seems, but He uses our timekeeping devices, such as the sun, moon, and earth: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth,...there was evening and morning, the nth day."
Thank you for conceding the point.
I recall Bob talking about it more than once over the years.