ECT What makes Preterism so impossible

[Interplanner]

No, Mt 24B says all nations would mourn over their rejection of Christ, that the trumpet that calls all believers would sound, that the elect would be gathered from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (double universal image), not just Judea.

I assume this is why Paul thought the world's judgement would follow right after Israel's (Rom 2), but he never seems to allow for a delay like Mark, Matthew, Peter.

 

[Sonnet]

Nope.

Do you call Muslim's "God's chosen people"?

Do you call Buddhist's "God's chosen people"?

If not, why would you call Christ rejecting Jews "God's chosen people"?

Certainly the baton has come to the Gentiles.

But let's not forget Romans 11:25

 

[Interplanner]

'Jews are believers' is as valid as your statement that, 'the Jews are non-believers'.

Why are you focusing on the Jew's rejection of Christ when it's a fact that Gentiles do too?

I think it is because the popular eschatological belief today is that Israel as an ethne is being restored. This is one of the many contradictions of D'ism. yes, the modern state is there, but it is most secular, often socialist/atheist and certainly not apostolic.

It's being there as a state is a way for D'ism to ploy the 2P2P belief. That is, 'God is running 2 different programs with 2 different people.' They would expect there to be contradiction because the 2nd program is done completely different from the Gospel (the first).

 

[tetelestai]

Why are you focusing on the Jew's rejection of Christ when it's a fact that Gentiles do too?

Because Futurists/Zionists/Dispensationalists put the Christ rejecting Jews on a pedestal.

Futurists/Zionists/Dispensationalists tell Christ rejecting Jews that God has a separate plan just for them.

I started a thread a few years ago titled "Dispensationalism sends Jews to hell".

By telling Christ rejecting Jews that God has a separate plan just for them, and that they are still God's chosen people, you are indirectly sending them to hell.

 

[tetelestai]

But let's not forget Romans 11:25

Fulfilled a long time ago.

 

[Sonnet]

(Matt 24:34) Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Everything (all these things) before verse 34 did happen by 70AD.

No:

For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

 

[tetelestai]

No:

For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Already happened

Over 1.1 million Jews were killed in Jerusalem in 70AD.

Since then, not one city has suffered as many deaths. Not even the death tolls of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined come close to the death toll in Jerusalem in 70AD.

No other city has suffered greater tribulation and death than Jerusalem did in 70AD.

No city in WWI or WWII suffered as many deaths, or experienced the tribulation Jerusalem did in 70AD.

The words of Jesus stand till this day.

 

[Sonnet]

I think it is because the popular eschatological belief today is that Israel as an ethne is being restored. This is one of the many contradictions of D'ism. yes, the modern state is there, but it is most secular, often socialist/atheist and certainly not apostolic.

It's being there as a state is a way for D'ism to ploy the 2P2P belief. That is, 'God is running 2 different programs with 2 different people.' They would expect there to be contradiction because the 2nd program is done completely different from the Gospel (the first).

ethne? Ethnic group?

2P2P?

 

[Interplanner]

No:

For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

All the things mentioned in 24A did happen in Judea or to Judea in the 1st century setting as he said. Sometimes we have to remember that 'earth' is a bad translation for 'land' meaning the land of Israel, as it does throughout 24A. When you get to B (after v29) you find universal imagery about the 2nd coming. The line about 'the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other' is a double-universal.

The expectation was that B would immediately follow A (v29). But B did not, because a delay is allowed for. The delay is found in v36, in Mk 13's parable that has the 4 return options and in 2 Peter 3. It is redemptive--so that more people may believe the offer of the Gospel.

This means that Paul's view is problematic. I don't know of any place where Paul allows for a delay of B or is aware of any. Everything he says is very immediate.

 

[Sonnet]

Because Futurists/Zionists/Dispensationalists put the Christ rejecting Jews on a pedestal.

Futurists/Zionists/Dispensationalists tell Christ rejecting Jews that God has a separate plan just for them.

I started a thread a few years ago titled "Dispensationalism sends Jews to hell".

By telling Christ rejecting Jews that God has a separate plan just for them, and that they are still God's chosen people, you are indirectly sending them to hell.

Hmm - not a pedestal - though Christ's return is to Israel - the land. God's choosing them in no way makes others less important. He came to them and they rejected him. Now the Gentiles have the baton...but they will welcome him at some point.

Can't see the problem. Always been baffled by the Dispensationalist's claims.

 

[Sonnet]

Fulfilled a long time ago.

Jesus came back and no one noticed.

 

[Sonnet]

Already happened

Over 1.1 million Jews were killed in Jerusalem in 70AD.

Since then, not one city has suffered as many deaths. Not even the death tolls of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined come close to the death toll in Jerusalem in 70AD.

No other city has suffered greater tribulation and death than Jerusalem did in 70AD.

No city in WWI or WWII suffered as many deaths, or experienced the tribulation Jerusalem did in 70AD.

The words of Jesus stand till this day.

You shoe-horned the limitation of a city in there.

 

[Interplanner]

ethne? Ethnic group?

2P2P?

'Ethne' is the Greek term for a race as such or a nation. The Christian church is not one as such because it is made of every 'ethne' on earth and those people are from all classes, gender, grade, as Gal 3 and Col 2 keep saying.

There is one place, then, where a 'play on words' makes the Gospel community an 'ethne': Mt 21's parable of the vineyard workers. The preceding crew has been sacked and those who produce its fruit are the 'ethne' that God works with. Since the criterion is faith and the fruit faith produces, it is obviously not a switch (in the Dispensational sense between 2 programs). The same is true at the end of Rom 11 when, no matter what race a person is, they stand (or fail) by faith.

2P2P
is the Dispensational belief that God has 2 programs and 2 peoples and 2 gospels and 2 types of redemption in 2 ways at 2 times for 2 different reasons. Ie, the programs are skew--never meeting or matching. Otherwise they think the bible is a huge contradiction, as Totten Linnett said this morning. But in fact, Paul has the last word on this.

The last word is Gal 3:17 where Paul says that 'someone' has voided the promises and replaced them. Hmmm, I wonder who that was!

In Ryrie's book DISPENSATIONALISM TODAY (1970s) "Two Peoples, Two Programs" was a chapter. He was professor of D'ist theology at Dallas Th Seminary. Hence, 2P2P.

 

[Sonnet]

'Ethne' is the Greek term for a race as such or a nation. The Christian church is not one as such because it is made of every 'ethne' on earth and those people are from all classes, gender, grade, as Gal 3 and Col 2 keep saying.

There is one place, then, where a 'play on words' makes the Gospel community an 'ethne': Mt 21's parable of the vineyard workers. The preceding crew has been sacked and those who produce its fruit are the 'ethne' that God works with. Since the criterion is faith and the fruit faith produces, it is obviously not a switch (in the Dispensational sense between 2 programs). The same is true at the end of Rom 11 when, no matter what race a person is, they stand (or fail) by faith.

2P2P
is the Dispensational belief that God has 2 programs and 2 peoples and 2 gospels and 2 types of redemption in 2 ways at 2 times for 2 different reasons. Ie, the programs are skew--never meeting or matching. Otherwise they think the bible is a huge contradiction, as Totten Linnett said this morning. But in fact, Paul has the last word on this.

The last word is Gal 3:17 where Paul says that 'someone' has voided the promises and replaced them. Hmmm, I wonder who that was!

In Ryrie's book DISPENSATIONALISM TODAY (1970s) "Two Peoples, Two Programs" was a chapter. He was professor of D'ist theology at Dallas Th Seminary. Hence, 2P2P.

Thanks.

The last word is Gal 3:17 where Paul says that 'someone' has voided the promises and replaced them. Hmmm, I wonder who that was!

?

 

[Interplanner]

So what are the options in Gal 3:17? Who voided the promises and replaced them?

Paul?
No, he's speaking against it.

God?
No, he wanted those promises to reach the nations in his mission.

Judaism?
Really close. This is what Paul grew up in and in the 'Little Asia' area, there is even neo-Judaism to deal with--people who claim to have heard the law all over again from the very angels who spoke to Moses, Col 2:16+. Sometimes he called them Judaizers.

 

[Sonnet]

So what are the options in Gal 3:17? Who voided the promises and replaced them?

Paul?
No, he's speaking against it.

God?
No, he wanted those promises to reach the nations in his mission.

Judaism?
Really close. This is what Paul grew up in and in the 'Little Asia' area, there is even neo-Judaism to deal with--people who claim to have heard the law all over again from the very angels who spoke to Moses, Col 2:16+. Sometimes he called them Judaizers.

Who is asking the question, 'who voided the promises,' for you to try and answer it?

I'm not following you.

 

[Interplanner]

Paul decries the fact that the promises have been voided and replaced.

This has been done by those in Judaism who oppose him. Indeed, it is what Judaism did as he knew it and grew up in it. This statement, this objection, by Paul, is the core of his reformation. The promises to Abraham do not 'need' the law to be fulfilled and they were offered to the nations before the law came. The law is what Judaizers major on, and he doesn't mean the core ethical commands. He means the institution, the dietary and ceremonial laws, etc.

The Gospel is what was promised to Abraham! That is why everyone who believes is a 'son of Abraham' who had faith.

Notice there is nothing about the land or theocracy. That's obviously not what was meant. what was meant was justification from our sins--forgiveness! This is now (re-) offered apart from the law to all mankind, race-kind, gender-kind, class-kind.

The best commentary on Paul is--Paul in his 'sample' sermon in Acts 13. 'Whatever was promised to the fathers has been fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ'! Why the resurrection? Because it is the proof of the justifying quality of Christ's work, as repeated in Rom 4:25. The proof of justification from our sins is the thing promised to Israel, to Abraham! And to be preached all over the world, to be enjoyed, to ignite fellowship and unity! It is the most amazing news and declaration under heaven! He wanted all Israel to be its missionaries! They would have been forceful in it! But very few, very low %s followed. He still wanted all of his people to be like him, except for the incarceration chains he had to wear at the end, Acts 26. To be in this mission! This was all kickstarted by Pentecost, in which those people returned home from that weekend to 'every nation under heaven' with a forceful message completely different from anything the law sounded like. Now it read: we blew it over there in Israel, even killing Christ. But God forgives that through the same loss of Christ! Everyone there and everyone on earth, therefore, owes God their honor! This is the power of the 'reign' of God which is now here. This message. This message compels all men to live in honor of Christ! How could it not?

Something like that. No wonder Paul was less than interested in 'the law' as such, anymore.

 

[tetelestai]

Jesus came back and no one noticed.

Everyone noticed.

Over 1.1 million Jews were killed, and the city and temple were destroyed.

 

[Sonnet]

Paul decries the fact that the promises have been voided and replaced.

This has been done by those in Judaism who oppose him. Indeed, it is what Judaism did as he knew it and grew up in it. This statement, this objection, by Paul, is the core of his reformation. The promises to Abraham do not 'need' the law to be fulfilled and they were offered to the nations before the law came. The law is what Judaizers major on, and he doesn't mean the core ethical commands. He means the institution, the dietary and ceremonial laws, etc.

The Gospel is what was promised to Abraham! That is why everyone who believes is a 'son of Abraham' who had faith.

Notice there is nothing about the land or theocracy. That's obviously not what was meant. what was meant was justification from our sins--forgiveness! This is now (re-) offered apart from the law to all mankind, race-kind, gender-kind, class-kind.

The best commentary on Paul is--Paul in his 'sample' sermon in Acts 13. 'Whatever was promised to the fathers has been fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ'! Why the resurrection? Because it is the proof of the justifying quality of Christ's work, as repeated in Rom 4:25. The proof of justification from our sins is the thing promised to Israel, to Abraham! And to be preached all over the world, to be enjoyed, to ignite fellowship and unity! It is the most amazing news and declaration under heaven! He wanted all Israel to be its missionaries! They would have been forceful in it! But very few, very low %s followed. He still wanted all of his people to be like him, except for the incarceration chains he had to wear at the end, Acts 26. To be in this mission! This was all kickstarted by Pentecost, in which those people returned home from that weekend to 'every nation under heaven' with a forceful message completely different from anything the law sounded like. Now it read: we blew it over there in Israel, even killing Christ. But God forgives that through the same loss of Christ! Everyone there and everyone on earth, therefore, owes God their honor! This is the power of the 'reign' of God which is now here. This message. This message compels all men to live in honor of Christ! How could it not?

Something like that. No wonder Paul was less than interested in 'the law' as such, anymore.

Thanks very much. Sounds about right.

Everyone there and everyone on earth, therefore, owes God their honour!

? It's difficult to prove that which scripture claims about Christ - but, yes, if true then the honour is deserved.

 

[Sonnet]

Everyone noticed.

Over 1.1 million Jews were killed, and the city and temple were destroyed.

And?