What is the Gospel?

[Sonnet]

For the Son of Perdition? A devil? Just because Judas was there, doesn't mean Jesus was addressing Judas. Why do you pick one scripture over another? Double standard?

Matt. 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said. 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

You clearly consider that Judas was without hope of salvation. That is limited atonement.

Sure, scripture affirms that Jesus died for Judas and you have been shown that 'many' may equate to all:

Romans 5:11,15
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man

So, you ignore what Jesus said quite clearly because the Calvinists use the text. No inference is required for a plain reading of the text. "I am the Good Shepherd".....who lays down His life for the sheep....those who do no believe are not his sheep. Judas did not believe. You can make all the excuses you want to, but it won't change what is plainly written.

And you ignored what I wrote. Jesus is speaking directly to the Pharisees and rebuking them - they had just thrown out of the synagogue the blind man whom Jesus healed. In contrast to their insouciance Jesus relates how He would be prepared to lay His life down.

If a man affirms that he would lay down his life for his wife, is he affirming that he would lay down his life only for her and nobody else no matter what the situation?

Come up with an explicit scripture that limits the atonement and you would have a point.

There is lots of stuff I didn't include. Why should I when you won't even accept the verses I did give you? Jesus made it clear that Judas did not believe...

You just avoided what I actually wrote. Did Jesus enjoin those He describes as not His sheep to believe Him by believing in His miracles? Yes or no GD?

 

[Sonnet]

Is this a chicken or the egg question?

Those who believe ARE His sheep. Those who believe ARE the church.

Believing in Jesus is what makes a person a sheep.

What did Jesus do for everyone without exception that gave them the opportunity to be saved from eternal hell?

 

[Sonnet]

You posted that to Truster.

While I do hold to the Words of "God our Saviour" v. 3...

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

One, that is a NOW time revelation unique to the Apostle Paul's "my gospel" - which concerns Christ's having given Himself a ransom not only for ALL, but to be testified IN DUE TIME.

In contrast to those passages prior to this NOW time (or Dispensational) revelation that had spoken only of "for many."

So, there is this NOW TIME or Dispensational distinction (dispensation: oikonomia or economy) about that.

This here...

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

But there is also this issue in verse 2, in the following, that you do appear to be off on, if I have understood you right...

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

For when they believed that Christ died for their sins, etc., ALL this took place, via The Spirit...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

How do I know that was via the Spirit?

This here...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Meaning that this here...

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

...is actually referring to a different salvation, thus, the word ALSO.

Note the order...

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Verse 2 is another ALSO...

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Not only had he preached the gospel of Christ to them, they had ALSO received it.

But the thing does not end there.

That much is this...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

But that had not ended there, for he then ALSO adds "and wherein ye stand" - which is this...

Romans 5:2 By whom ALSO we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Which is the issue of stability - the very issue he is addressing in 1 Cor. 15.

In other words, someone had come along and destabilized them - had asserted that they had believed in vain - that Christ had not risen from the dead - which is why Paul goes into that there.

It is not...the whole of the gospel of Christ preached by Paul.

That would actually be all of Romans.

Because Romans goes over many Dispensational issues the misunderstanding of any aspect of which ends up people in all sorts of ideas about salvation.

Romans is a DUE TIME, or Dispensational Revelation, Rom. 16:25, 26 - all of it.

And Paul's letters prior to Romans make it evident he had been preaching much of Romans long before he wrote it.

In contrast, Corinthians and Galatians are more like commentaries on various issues already solved for in Romans.

But back to 1 Cor. 15.

Notice....this here...

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

That "unless ye have believed in vain" is the issue of unless this that follows was not true...

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Pail later returns to this basic assertion "unless what you have believed was false" in the following...

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

There is your verse 2.

THAT is what he began the chapter with.

He then adds more on this issue...

15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So, no, 1 Cor. 15 is not all the gospel of Christ.

It is in fact, very little of all it encompasses.

There are, for example, some various issues concerning man that have to be gone into, as say, in some things gone over in Romans 1:18-3:20, and, say, in Romans 5, about how man ended up in his predicament to begin with - BEFORE - the Cross as God's sufficient provision for ALL that was NOW being testified, is only then gone into.

In other words, 1 Cor. 15 is actually no more than a very short, to the point reminder of all that Paul had actually gone into with them, that he does not go into with them there again, but merely reminds them of, in a very, very limited summary form.

Go out and preach the gospel of Christ to people - see if you don't repeatedly run smack into all sorts of issues and questions that chapter is actually merely in light of but does not go into, because Paul was "speaking to the choir" if you will.

And again, the Corinthians were already Believers, or saved people.

In fact, though already saved, at the same time it is equally obvious they were an unstable group, it is evident in the very first chapter of this amazing letter to them...

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

But anyway, go out and preach the gospel of Christ to all sorts of people.

See if you don't come home from that with all sorts of questions to have to trace out the answers to in Scripture.

The gospel of Christ is that much a hands kind of a thing - you learn how to swim its ever wonderously profound and equally vast waters, not based on a few passages, but rather on "the whole counsel of God" dived into, and not only in The Book itself, but hand in hand out there in that vast, ever endless sea of lost humanity.

While you're at it, if you yourself haven't done so already, right this minute would be as good a time as any to believe that, yeah, this; that; or the other...

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" - Romans 5:8

Sorry Danoh - I have failed to follow you...particularly:

One, that is a NOW time revelation unique to the Apostle Paul's "my gospel" - which concerns Christ's having given Himself a ransom not only for ALL, but to be testified IN DUE TIME.

In contrast to those passages prior to this NOW time (or Dispensational) revelation that had spoken only of "for many."

So, there is this NOW TIME or Dispensational distinction (dispensation: oikonomia or economy) about that.

 

[Sonnet]

Not sure if my estimation is completely true but it seems to me to be nothing more than an excuse, and especially in a forum atmosphere such as this: for the same reason AMR generally does not even respond to me, (as you can see that earlier he has posted and yet ignored what I said even though he was quoted and mentioned in one of my posts), and that is because he has already judged me as lost, unsaved, (or "unelect" I suppose), and this I know because he openly said so when I first began posting here, (I have a memory like an elephant, lol, especially when someone tells me I am outside of the faith). Therefore, because of his doctrinal mindset, he feels he has no compulsion to expound anything to me, (in other words it is nothing more than a defense mechanism). The reality is that many times the Scripture has been employed to refute what he has proposed from his own doctrine: so what really is the truth? He lets himself off the hook thinking that because he himself has judged me as "not saved" it must by default mean that the Scripture which I post is null and void because, according to his theology, I cannot possibly know what it says, (because in his mind I am "totally depraved"), and he therefore does not have any responsibility to either expound the truth to me or to even attempt to defend his position, (which he cannot do by way of the Scripture and he already knows I will not accept the blatantly erroneous Canons of Dort, lol).

Sure, nobody who conforms to the TOL rules should be ostracized.

 

[glorydaz]

#2897

If Jesus did not shed His blood for Judas Iscariot and all those considered not His sheep, then one wonders how believing in Jesus is going to avail them.

I know you're not addressing me, but I just noticed how you named Judas individually. I find that interesting. Jesus did not die specifically for any individual, but for mankind in general. And what did His death accomplish for mankind? I suggest it bought them time (mercy) judgment postponed. They have their entire life here on earth to come to the knowledge of the truth...to be individually reconciled to God. Which is why we are to preach, "Be ye reconciled".

I should add...reconciled by His death, MUCH MORE saved by His life means that MUCH MORE is for the individuals who have believed. From general to specific. Romans 5:10


God's Grace (His blood) is the "big tent" which is not able to be accessed by anyone unless they have faith. Romans 5:2 So if you say Christ's blood was shed for Judas, you'd be wrong. It was shed for "whosoever believeth". That does not include those who refuse to be reconciled to God.

It's the same with the prison door I mentioned at the start of this. You kept talking about each person's prison door, but that isn't the case. All of mankind is locked in the one big prison cell of sin. Luke 4:18 When Jesus went to the cross, the door was unlocked, God was willing and able to make peace with sinful man.
Those who believe can come freely out to access the blood bought Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. That blood only applies to those who come out of the cell. Isaiah 42:7

Judas and all unbelievers remain in the cell in their sins. So who was the blood poured out for, but those who were able to access it? It isn't applied until they have walked out the door, and are able to come boldly before the throne of Grace.

What was the purpose of Christ's death? To purchase the possibility of salvation...or to purchase a people for His own possession? Ephesians 1:14 Did He purchase those still sitting in the cell? Did His blood wash away their sins? If it did, why are they still in their sins?

 

[Sonnet]

I assume you are speaking of 1Cor 15:11 where Paul says, "thus we preach"? (or "so we preach" or something along those lines). If so it is pretty clear that when he says "we" he speaks of himself and the other apostles. If in this passage, by his usage of graphe, he does not mean "Scriptures", (as in the Tanach), but rather simply means "writings", then the whole passage comes perfectly into view, (for those willing to see it), for he speaks not of prophecies in the Tanach concerning Messiah herein but rather speaks concerning the Good News or Gospel histories which were already being circulated, (I know that mainstream Christianity, and especially the hard-core grace minded Paulines, will fight what I say tooth and nail here: but he went up to learn the "historie(s)" from Kephas according to Gal 1:18 and yet only needed to spend fifteen days going over what he received, (because what he received were written documents, writings, "graphas", which he could take and walk through with Messiah on his own)). Look at what comes just before this section in the previous chapter:

1 Corinthians 14:36 - 15:11
36 What? was it from you that the Word of Elohim went forth? or unto you alone did he come?
37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let the same recognize the things I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Master.
38 But if anyone is ignorant, [or ignores] let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in foreign tongues.
40 But let all things be done decently and in order.
01 Now I declare to you, brethren, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand:
02 By which you also are being delivered, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
03 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: [Gal 1:18] that Messiah died for our sins according to the writings:
04 And that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the writings:
05 And that he appeared to Kephas, then to the twelve.
06 Then he appeared to over five hundred brethren upon one occasion, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep.
07 Then he appeared to Yakob, then to all the apostles:
08 And last of all, as if a miscarriage, he appeared to me also:
09 For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle, for that I persecuted the congregation of Elohim.
10 But I am what I am by the grace of Elohim: His grace which was bestowed on me was not futile, but I labored the more-abundantly-so than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of Elohim which was together-with me.
11 Whether then it is I or they, [the other apostles] thus we preach, and thus you believed.

Yes, I was referring to 1 Cor 15:11.

I am unclear as to why you feel the need to reason that the OT scriptures aren't referenced by Paul here.

 

[Sonnet]

Gospel is Old English for Good News. The Good News started when it was realised that Jesus was the fulfilment of the long awaited Hebrew Messiah (which means anointed one). The Messiah Jesus died for our sins, which provided a way for people to go to Heaven when they died, as up to then everyone went to Hell.

This is Good News indeed.

Thanks.

You think Moses and David etc went to hell?

The thread has crystallized into an argument about whether Paul would have told unbelievers, 'Christ died for our sins.'

 

[Sonnet]

No. The mystery, not the "secret".

Would you explain please?

 

[daqq]

Sure, nobody who conforms to the TOL rules should be ostracized.

We all come into this world "in Adam" and therefore we all start out as brethren, "in Adam", that is, according to Luke quoting Paul, "from one", (GNT, Acts 17:26 ASV), or "from one blood", (T/R, Acts 17:26 KJV), and thus, "the brotherhood of man", (Adam). Sorta gives a whole new understanding to, "If you see your brother in the ditch", (and many so-called elect will respond, "that is not my brother", lol). The major problem with Reform-Calvinism is that it fails to spiritually discern and understand one of its own primary scripture passages that it uses to formulate major doctrine. Elohim has the right, as The Potter, to make two different vessels, (of spirit), from the one self-same lump of clay, (and every son of Adam "in Adam" is a lump of clay), one vessel is fitted toward destruction, (your old man Esau nature which Elohim detests), and the other is prepared unto glory, (the new man "in Messiah" the "Last Adam"). People are not devils, demons, thorns, tares, or goats, (which things are spiritual allegories and parables), and the Master plainly says that everlasting hellfire is prepared for the devil and his angels or messengers, (not human beings). Likewise, concerning your conversation with others here, Judas is clearly stated to be a devil, (Jn 6:70,71, believe that in your thinking, and you will go beyond many in their thinking, (whether you "get saved" according to their doctrine or not, lol)).

 

[Sonnet]

I know you're not addressing me, but I just noticed how you named Judas individually. I find that interesting. Jesus did not die specifically for any individual, but for mankind in general. And what did His death accomplish for mankind? I suggest it bought them time (mercy) judgment postponed. They have their entire life here on earth to come to the knowledge of the truth...to be individually reconciled to God. Which is why we are to preach, "Be ye reconciled".

I should add...reconciled by His death, MUCH MORE saved by His life means that MUCH MORE is for the individuals who have believed. From general to specific. Romans 5:10


God's Grace (His blood) is the "big tent" which is not able to be accessed by anyone unless they have faith. Romans 5:2 So if you say Christ's blood was shed for Judas, you'd be wrong. It was shed for "whosoever believeth". That does not include those who refuse to be reconciled to God.

It's the same with the prison door I mentioned at the start of this. You kept talking about each person's prison door, but that isn't the case. All of mankind is locked in the one big prison cell of sin. Luke 4:18 When Jesus went to the cross, the door was unlocked, God was willing and able to make peace with sinful man.
Those who believe can come freely out to access the blood bought Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. That blood only applies to those who come out of the cell. Isaiah 42:7

Judas and all unbelievers remain in the cell in their sins. So who was the blood poured out for, but those who were able to access it? It isn't applied until they have walked out the door, and are able to come boldly before the throne of Grace.

What was the purpose of Christ's death? To purchase the possibility of salvation...or to purchase a people for His own possession? Ephesians 1:14 Did He purchase those still sitting in the cell? Did His blood wash away their sins? If it did, why are they still in their sins?

Do you consider that anyone is born such that belief in Christ (for their salvation) is not possible? - or do you believe everyone without exception may exercise faith in Christ?

 

[daqq]

Yes, I was referring to 1 Cor 15:11.

I am unclear as to why you feel the need to reason that the OT scriptures aren't referenced by Paul here.

Where was Messiah buried and raised the third day in the O/T? (1Cor 15:4)?

 

[glorydaz]

What did Jesus do for everyone without exception that gave them the opportunity to be saved from eternal hell?

He unlocked the prison door..... Put simply, He opened the way for Peace with God.



Those who believe can come boldly before the throne of grace to have their sins forgiven. He paid the price for our sins...bore them upon the cross.There is a whole list of what He accomplished on the Cross for those who believe.

 

[Sonnet]

Where was Messiah buried and raised the third day in the O/T? (1Cor 15:4)?

Good question daqq.

Psalm 16:8-11

Acts 2:31
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

 

[glorydaz]

You clearly consider that Judas was without hope of salvation. That is limited atonement.

No, it isn't.

I know Judas was without hope of salvation. I know that because Jesus said so, Himself. He said Judas did not believe. He said he was the son of perdition, and a devil. Scripture said satan entered into Judas. That is not limited atonement, it's merely believing what is written in Scripture. Duh.

You're that stupid that you keep playing this game? Seriously? If you're doing it to please the evil one, then you're a worse fool than I thought. And, demanding I answer, like I'm your lap dog, will only get you smacked down.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you consider that anyone is born such that belief in Christ (for their salvation) is not possible? - or do you believe everyone without exception may exercise faith in Christ?

Are you really so dense? :doh:


Of course anyone can believe.....and have faith in Christ.

 

[Sonnet]

No, it isn't.

I know Judas was without hope of salvation. I know that because Jesus said so, Himself. He said Judas did not believe. He said he was the son of perdition, and a devil. Scripture said satan entered into Judas. That is not limited atonement, it's merely believing what is written in Scripture. Duh.

You're that stupid that you keep playing this game? Seriously? If you're doing it to please the evil one, then you're a worse fool than I thought. And, demanding I answer, like I'm your lap dog, will only get you smacked down.

Not believing in Christ is something all humans do is it not? Since you affirm 'anyone can believe', what is your point?

...and you continue with the ad hominems....

 

[daqq]

Good question daqq.

Psalm 16:8-11

Acts 2:31
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

Yeah, but that does not say what Paul says in 1Cor 15:4 and you will not find anything that does. If you read Acts 6:1-4 very carefully: what is really going on? What is truly being said here? Did the apostles consider themselves "above others" to the point that they were "too important" to be waiting on tables? (I have actually heard others make that accusation before).

Acts 6:1-4
1 Now in those days, when the number of the talmidim was multiplying, a complaint arose from the Hellenists [Yhudim] against the Hebrews, [Yhudim] because their widows were neglected in the daily service.
2 The twelve summoned the multitude of the talmidim and said, "It is not appropriate for us to forsake the Word of Elohim and serve tables.
3 Therefore select from among you, brothers, seven men of good report, full of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually-steadfastly to prayer and to the ministration of the Word."

What are the apostles doing here that is so important? I emphatically suggest to you that not only are they pouring over the Tanach in prayer but that "the ministration of the Word" means that they are writing: for since Acts 2 the Holy Spirit has been bringing back to their remembrance all things which the Master had said to them during his earthly ministry, the things which we now read in the Gospel accounts. And what was the money primarily spent for when those who sold their possessions brought the proceeds and laid them at the feet of the apostles? Lambskins and sheepskin-parchments were very expensive in those days just as they are to this day. In fact the best skins for parchments were those of still-born lambkins, (miscarriages, 1Cor 15:8, and these are ancient things), so that the Word written upon those skins became flesh, just as when it is written on your heart, and the lambkin that was miscarried therefore lived, though it died, (it is a shepherd thing, lol).

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Thanks.

You think Moses and David etc went to hell?

Yes, but to the righteous part (Abraham's bosom).

The thread has crystallized into an argument about whether Paul would have told unbelievers, 'Christ died for our sins.'

I believe Paul preached that.

 

[Sonnet]

Yeah, but that does not say what Paul says in 1Cor 15:4 and you will not find anything that does. If you read Acts 6:1-4 very carefully: what is really going on? What is truly being said here? Did the apostles consider themselves "above others" to the point that they were "too important" to be waiting on tables? (I have actually heard others make that accusation before).

Acts 6:1-4
1 Now in those days, when the number of the talmidim was multiplying, a complaint arose from the Hellenists [Yhudim] against the Hebrews, [Yhudim] because their widows were neglected in the daily service.
2 The twelve summoned the multitude of the talmidim and said, "It is not appropriate for us to forsake the Word of Elohim and serve tables.
3 Therefore select from among you, brothers, seven men of good report, full of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually-steadfastly to prayer and to the ministration of the Word."

What are the apostles doing here that is so important? I emphatically suggest to you that not only are they pouring over the Tanach in prayer but that "the ministration of the Word" means that they are writing: for since Acts 2 the Holy Spirit has been bringing back to their remembrance all things which the Master had said to them during his earthly ministry, the things which we now read in the Gospel accounts. And what was the money primarily spent for when those who sold their possessions brought the proceeds and laid them at the feet of the apostles? Lambskins and sheepskin-parchments were very expensive in those days just as they are to this day. In fact the best skins for parchments were those of still-born lambkins, (miscarriages, 1Cor 15:8, and these are ancient things), so that the Word written upon those skins became flesh, just as when it is written on your heart, and the lambkin that was miscarried therefore lived, though it died, (it is a shepherd thing, lol).

Thanks. Very interesting - you have a point.

Is it possible that Paul considered that which was passed round through word of mouth (for that is how such stories were initially 'recorded' in those times) were considered scriptures? It would be odd, though, for him to use that word if this were so.

Is Paul alluding to the fact that Jesus spoke of Himself rising in three days?

John 2:19-22
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

 

[Danoh]

Where was Messiah buried and raised the third day in the O/T? (1Cor 15:4)?

Something I've been meaning to say to you for some time now, daqq.

Despite our different understandings, I have always enjoyed the stimulating challenge of your views and questions: and there is also ever a sincerity about them; as if you not only actually thirst for a true or right understanding, but as if you do not post merely to get a negative rise out of someone out of some sort of an unresolved animosity towards them.

Unlike some of your own on that other sub-forum within that other forum we first met on, you were like the way you are on here now, back then too.

Man o man were some of them rabidly insistent - do you still "dance" with them? :chuckle:

Anyway, though at times I might go a time not going back and forth with you on one thing or another, please know it is always like greeting a genuine, old friend whenever I do return to address one or another of your posts.

I'm grateful to have known you.

To your question/assertion, then...

There is this assertion here; right?

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

But there is also this one...

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Obviously, He went over that with them via the Scripture.

Question is, where is this "buried...and rose again the third day" in the OT?

Though I hold that Paul means by is an application DISTINCTLY UNIQUE to that Mystery UNIQUE to his ministry ALONE, at the same time, part of where ISRAEL's Prophesied hope as to that is concerned, in the OT, is asserted in the following...

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Another part of it is asserted in the following, which is from the OT, also...

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And so on...

In short, it is found in a collection of various passages that together paint the intended image of it, and that, THIS SIDE of the Cross.

For, prior to the Cross, it had formed a part of "the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 13:11) that He had often made reference to in various parables, in types, and figures, and even literally, but that had nevertheless been made prior to the Cross.

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

There was that, PRIOR to the Cross, but also this, AFTER the Cross..

Luke 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 24:8 And they remembered his words, 24:9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

Likewise had been the case with the Prophets themselves...

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Right there you have it also, and also the teaching of His Prophesied return one day - which is another issue in connection with God's plan and purpose for a redeemed Israel unto His planned service election for them one day over this Earth, in that day of their adoption (Bar Mitzvah) at last, that does not right off appear to depict Two separate Advents in the OT, though there all along those Two separate Advents of His turn out to have been written of, all along.

Rom. 5:6-8 towards you.