ECT What is the aim of the Law of Moses?

[genuineoriginal]

the purpose of that part of scripture called the law or commandments was to convict of sin

Do you think God hated the children of Israel (God's chosen people) so much that He ONLY gave them the Law to convict them of their sins?

 

[JonahofAkron]

A lot of Christians are taught to believe that the Law has been abolished.
A lot of Christians are taught to believe that the ONLY purpose of the Law is to convict people of their sins in order to lead them to Christ.

I do not believe those things. People are led to lots of error.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I do not believe those things. People are led to lots of error.

You asked for reasons for why people would have different beliefs than Paul about the purpose of the Law.
I provided two ways in which people are led astray from Paul's beliefs.
I am happy to hear that you were not led astray.

 

[JonahofAkron]

You asked for reasons for why people would have different beliefs than Paul about the purpose of the Law.
I provided two ways in which people are led astray from Paul's beliefs.
I am happy to hear that you were not led astray.

Oh, dang. My bad. I didn't realize you were answering that. It was more rhetorical. You're totally right, though. My bad.

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[ttruscott]

A lot of Christians are taught to believe that the Law has been abolished.
A lot of Christians are taught to believe that the ONLY purpose of the Law is to convict people of their sins in order to lead them to Christ.

The Levitical law has certainly been abolished but the law which you heard for the beginning: Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? has never been abolished. Does this 'since the earth was founded' NOT define in the beginning??? May I just repeat this for you so you may tell me what it means??? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? If you don't think that we were there to understand, then what?

I think it refers to John's saying in 1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. I believe this is the eternal commandment from the beginning of creation that has nothing to do with Levirate law and which has never been rescinded.

Please don't just tell me I am wrong; actually exegete these verses to tell me what they really mean to you so I can learn something.

 

[ttruscott]

Do you think God hated the children of Israel (God's chosen people) so much that He ONLY gave them the Law to convict them of their sins?

[FONT=&quot]To be convicted of sin is the greatest (and first !) blessing given on earth to HIS sinful elect. HIS hate convicts HIS elect of their sin???? You are either really gone into some far out doctrine or you have no clue at all.[/FONT]

 

[Stripe]

Ceremonial laws were preparatory or typological. They dealt with how a believer maintains ceremonial cleanliness. This notion pointed beyond itself but there are a number of dietary, clothing, grooming, and physical statutes that an Old Covenant Jew had to honor.

They were temporary until the fulfillment of the New Covenant when the substance, Christ, came to usher in a Kingdom where the wall of division (in large part made by the ceremonial laws) was torn down. Even the entire Temple or Sanctuary was typological as Moses was shown a copy of the heavenly sanctuary to which we now have access through Christ.

Moral law is naturally, perpetually, and unchangeably binding. Positive law is given for a specific time, place, and circumstance. The ceremonial laws were positive in this sense. Regulations concerning government and worship are of this nature under the New Testament. They are not "ceremonial law" because that has been fulfilled by Christ in the tabernacle made without hands. They are not "moral law" in the sense of being unchanging and perpetually binding because they are given for the New Testament church on earth.

Nevertheless they are binding as laws because Christ as head has constituted the government and worship of His church. It might also be noted that the moral law itself teaches the binding authority of things which are positively appointed; the second commandment specifically binds men to observe any and every divine institution.

There are three uses for the Moral law (the Ten Commandments, first table being duty to God, second table being duty to our fellow man:

(1) Civic Use – Goad to civil righteousness – the ten commandments serve the purpose of God’s common grace in the world at large to restrain sin and promote righteousness. Thus, for believers and unbelievers alike (as human beings created in God’s image yet fallen into sin), the moral law may function simply as a behavioral hedge (e.g., Romans 2:14-15).

(2) Pedagogical Use – Tutor to drive us to Christ – the ten commandments also function as a tutor that leads us to see our need for Christ. In this way, we see how the law condemns us as law-breakers and shows us our need for the one perfect law-keeper, Jesus Christ (e.g., Romans 8:3-4; Galatians 3:23-24).

(3) Teaching Use – Rule of life – for believers, and only for believers, the ten commandments also provide a guide for righteousness and holy living (e.g., 1 Corinthians 7:19; Romans 7:12, 22, 25). Thus, believers will learn to delight in God’s Law (Psalm 1:2; 40:8)

In the Covenant of Works, the command was "Do this and live" or "Do this in order to live."

With the Covenant of Grace instituted in the Garden after the fall of Adam, the command became "Because you live, do this" or simply, "Live, and do this." It is no longer "do this for life", but rather "do this from life." This is because Jesus fulfilled the Law for us and took upon Himself it's curse.

Our Lord did not prescribe any new law. There are no works of supererogation. He gives us the moral law out of His mediatorial hand as the perfect rule of righteousness, and explains the law in its original meaning according to its spiritual and perfect nature. Christ was made under the law and fulfilled all righteousness; His righteousness is perfect, and this righteousness is imputed to believers for their justification.

If our Lord had given new precepts He would have needed to come again a second time to atone for our sins because we would have sinned anew in breaking those precepts and it would have required another work of obedience and suffering to save us. But as it is, thanks be unto God, He has appeared once in the end of the world to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. There is no new law, no new sin, no new sacrifice to be made for sin.

To dig deeper see:
https://www.monergism.com/marrow-modern-divinity-modernized-and-annotated-ebook

AMR

Wow. I think I understood all that. Not bad for a "foreigner." :chuckle:

The purpose of the law is stated explicitly in scripture:

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:24 NKJV​

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[Stripe]

Liberals think the purpose of the law is to stop crime.

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[Ask Mr. Religion]

Wow. I think I understood all that. Not bad for a "foreigner." :chuckle:

The purpose of the law is stated explicitly in scripture:

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:24 NKJV​

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Heh! I stepped outside carefully tonight looking for something in the sky headed in my direction.

I will temp fate further, and recommend this for your consideration:

http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2018/09/retribution-and-redemption.php

AMR

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Levitical law has certainly been abolished

The Levitical priesthood has been changed and only the law relating to the Levitical priesthood is affected by that change.

Hebrews 7:12 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.​

but the law which you heard for the beginning: Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? has never been abolished. Does this 'since the earth was founded' NOT define in the beginning??? May I just repeat this for you so you may tell me what it means??? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? If you don't think that we were there to understand, then what?

In context, those verses were not about the Law, they were about God Himself and how you can't make an idol that can represent Him.

Isaiah 40:18-22 18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? 19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. 20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved. 21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:​

I think it refers to John's saying in 1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. I believe this is the eternal commandment from the beginning of creation that has nothing to do with Levirate law and which has never been rescinded.

John's reference to "heard from the beginning" refers to the beginning of Jesus' ministry, which John had seen with his own eyes.

1 John 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

The message John heard from the beginning of Jesus' ministry is not some eternal commandment that was given at the foundation of the earth.
It is the message Jesus gave to His followers.

 

[genuineoriginal]

To be convicted of sin is the greatest (and first !) blessing given on earth to HIS sinful elect.

Being convicted of your sins is not a blessing, it is a curse.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.​

HIS hate convicts HIS elect of their sin???? You are either really gone into some far out doctrine or you have no clue at all.

I can't understand the logic behind your statement.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Being convicted of your sins is not a blessing, it is a curse.

Which one was convicted of his sins and which one wasn't?:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" (Lk.18:10-14).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Which one was convicted of his sins and which one wasn't?:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" (Lk.18:10-14).​

That depends on which definition of convicted you are using.

convict 1 : to prove or declare guilty of an offense, especially after a legal trial. 2 : to impress with a sense of guilt.

​

If you are convicted (declared guilty) in the Judgment, you are cursed.
That is what will happen to the Pharisee.

If you are convicted (impressed with a sense of guilt) by your conscience and it leads you to repentance, you are blessed.
That is what happened with the publican.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That depends on which definition of convicted you are using.

convict 1 : to prove or declare guilty of an offense, especially after a legal trial. 2 : to impress with a sense of guilt.

​

If you are convicted (declared guilty) in the Judgment, you are cursed.
That is what will happen to the Pharisee.

If you are convicted (impressed with a sense of guilt) by your conscience and it leads you to repentance, you are blessed.
That is what happened with the publican.

The law does both at the same time and the two cannot be separated. The law declares the one who commits the sin guilty and at the same time it impresses upon the sinner his guilt.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The law does both at the same time and the two cannot be separated. The law declares the one who commits the sin guilty and at the same time it impresses upon the sinner his guilt.

The Law doesn't throw anyone into the lake of fire at the Judgment, the LORD does that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Law doesn't throw anyone into the lake of fire at the Judgment, the LORD does that.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Rev.20:12).​

 

[ttruscott]

Being convicted of your sins is not a blessing, it is a curse.I can't understand the logic behind your statement.

It is only by conviction of sin that we seek repentance (or why give us the law to convict us of sin?) and it is HIS love for us that has HIM lead us to repentance... being led to repentance is certainly a blessing or we'd be in sin forever.

 

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by ttruscott but the law which you heard for the beginning: Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?has never been abolished. Does this 'since the earth was founded' NOT define in the beginning??? May I just repeat this for you so you may tell me what it means??? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? If you don't think that we were there to understand, then what?


In context, those verses were not about the Law, they were about God Himself and how you can't make an idol that can represent Him.

Let's pretend that what we were told from the beginning since the earth was founded is not as important at this moment than the fact that IF we do not remember having heard what it was from the beginning when the earth was founded, we are subject to a chastising ridicule by the prophet...

Just how crazy does Isaiah have to be to challenge us to remember what we were told from the beginning at the foundation of the earth what we can never have heard because (as so many believe) we had not been created yet?? Do you deny we heard anything then?

I've never said that in 4000 years orthodoxy hasn't figured out a rational for every verse that denies our pre-conception existence, but I do deny that all the rationals are logical...

 

[genuineoriginal]

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Rev.20:12).​

Who is doing the judging in the verse?
Is it the books or is it God?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Let's pretend that what we were told from the beginning since the earth was founded is not as important at this moment than the fact that IF we do not remember having heard what it was from the beginning when the earth was founded, we are subject to a chastising ridicule by the prophet...

Just how crazy does Isaiah have to be to challenge us to remember what we were told from the beginning at the foundation of the earth what we can never have heard because (as so many believe) we had not been created yet?? Do you deny we heard anything then?

The story of the creation has been retold many times "since" the foundation of the earth, and this is what was repeatedly told to each generation from the beginning of the foundation of the earth.

I've never said that in 4000 years orthodoxy hasn't figured out a rational for every verse that denies our pre-conception existence, but I do deny that all the rationals are logical...

The only reason to believe in a pre-conception existence for humans is the fables that claim humans have an eternal soul that exists without a body.