Wick Stick
Well-known member
Danoh said:
One of us is having a reading comprehension problem. I don't think it's me.
ECT What is Preterism
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
One of us is having a reading comprehension problem. I don't think it's me.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
LOL, He rightly divided (chopped up) Danoh's post don'tcha know?
Right Divider
Body part
Right Divider read that right...
It is ANYONE who not only right off begins to wail at the MADS, but eventually goes on to continue to prove they haven't a clue as to MAD doctrine.
Thus, far; you qualify :chuckle:
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I guess I just got lumped in with some trolls you're having problems with because I disagreed with you. Whatever. Check my post history. I post here maybe one day every 3 weeks. I'm not stalking you, or the MAD men and women.
And yes, i am ignorant of MAD doctrine. I tried to learn some from the people here, but thus far all anyone has done is make fun of my questions.
And yes, i am ignorant of MAD doctrine. I tried to learn some from the people here, but thus far all anyone has done is make fun of my questions.
My apology whether merited or not.
What is it you wish to know about MAD - the core organizing principle?
Some other question?
Keep in mind though, that, as with any school of thought in life in general, let alone with any faith, even individuals within a same school of thought are bound to find, at times, that they hold to different understandings on one thing or another.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Yeah, ok.
I wouldn't have known enough to ask about a 'core organizing principle,' but if that's important, then yes I'd like to know what it is.
Run-of-the-mill dispensationalism organizes 7 dispensations correlating to the 7 churches in the apocalypse. Does MAD do so as well? If so, which church does it identify with the current age?
Is MAD hostile to covenant theology? In particular, most covenant theology posits the New Covenant as a fulfillment or resurrection of the Abrahamic covenant, rather than an entirely different set of 'house-rules.'
The Bible puts a difference between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism. Does MAD put them into different dispensations, or the same one? If the same one, how do you reconcile having different baptisms within the same covenant/dispensation?
Does MAD believe in the continued practice of baptism? If so, is it important? If so, what does MAD say baptism is? A ceremonial declaration? An initiation? An adoption? Is the moment of regeneration tied to baptism?
How does MAD account for the OT separation of the Northern Kingdom (House of Israel) and Southern Kingdom (House of Judah) into discreet entities that God dealt with separately? Traditional dispensationalism doesn't seem to have a good handle on how there could be multiple oikonomia (dispensations, house rules) corresponding to multiple houses.
Likewise, how does MAD account for the re-unification of the two entities? Does it believe this is already accomplished? If so, did it happen in OT times, or NT times, or when?
Do MAD's have a uniform eschatology? If so, are you pre-trib, post-trib, post-mil, or what? It appears you aren't preterists, but I don't know much more than that.
Does MAD embrace Sola Scriptura? Sola Fide? Sola Gratia? If not, does it have similar formal or informal doctrines?
I gather that MAD is not cessationist in its views. Does MAD believe in continuing revelation? Is there a link between MAD and Charismatic beliefs?
Does MAD link its genesis to a certain place/time/person? If so, where/when/who?
Does MAD have a dogmatic position on creation / Genesis 1-2?
Does MAD believe in a future role for (national, physical, according to the flesh) Israel?
Jarrod
Discussed among MADs.
Some do, some don't.
I don't (think the 7 churches represent 7 dispensations).
Nor do I think the 7 churches (congregations) are of the BOC, but are of Israel.
Gonna depend on which Abe covenant you talk about.
Paul compares our salvation with the covenant God made to Abe in Genesis 12, when Abe was uncircumcised and did nothing (ie. was asleep while GOD passed through the animal parts).
Later Abe was made a covenant that included circumcision (the literal flesh circumcision), of which we (BOC) have no part in.
Baptisim is a purification rite for Israel.
Making the unclean, clean, for worship.
Paul, the apostle with the gospel for the BOC was not sent to baptize (1Co 1:17), as the apostles for Israel were (Matt 28:19).
One of the main tenets of MAD is separating Israel from the BOC.
For the most part, we believe that the nation of Israel was split, but will be united again and the once again, united kingdom, will be restored in the future.
Most are probably pre-tirb.
Scripture.
Grace.
We don't have any formal creeds, if that's what you mean.
I would say that most believe the sign gifts have ceased for now.
It begins with Paul and the revelation given to him by the risen Lord that was not revealed by the prophets.
In other words, the prophets did not foretell of a time that Gentiles would be accepted by God DUE TO the fall of Israel. (Rom 11:11)
No official position.
Most here tend to trust the plain meaning of Genesis and the creation.
Absolutely.
That is one of the main tenets ----- that Israel and the BOC are not the same entity and are under different programs.
Israel - program of faith plus works.
BOC - program of faith without works.
Right Divider
Body part
Excellent post Tam!
Interplanner
Well-known member
full of holes.
WE MUST INTERP THE OT THE WAY THE NT DOES IN SPECIFICS--ACTUAL QUOTES. I'm sure Tam did not originate this stuff, but 2P2P is not in the NT and therefore not in the OT--if you are an apostle-abiding believer. If you do the OT directly, you are under the veil and can't see Christ, which is our business as Christians. So make up you mind what you are.
The 'Gentiles not known' remark is too ridiculous to consider. It is all over the OT, in Genesis, in Job (non-jewish) in Jonah, in Isaiah. Amateur.
If the NT does not develop a theme about the covenant, ignore it. don't use the OT after the fact to undermine what the NT says.
Perhaps most ridiculous, but not wide ranging is that the 7 churches are about Israel. 2P2P does not exist and those were churches, which had all ethnes in them for quite a while.
God's Truth
New member
You say, "One of the main tenets of MAD is separating Israel from the BOC."
God says through Jesus' death, he has made the two bodies, Jews and Gentiles, one.
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
God's Truth
New member
When Jesus walked the earth he explained that there are saved Jews and cut off Jews, and that is pertaining to the body of Christ.
Luke 13:28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Matthew 8:12
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 22:13
Then the king told the servants, 'Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
The Jews who did not have faith before Jesus' ministry, they were already cut off. Cut off? That is right, cut off. Cut off from a body of Christ, a body of God. Christ means God. The body of Christ, the body of God existed before Christians, before Paul, before the appearing of Jesus in the flesh, for Jesus says the law and the prophets were about him.
Read these scriptures, they are things JESUS said about the body of Christ, the body of God which already existed before Jesus came to earth.
These scriptures show a cutting off of the Jews who did not have faith and obedience:
Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,
Now read these scripture, these scriptures prove the body of Christ...the body of God...existed even in the Old Testament times:
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Exodus 17:6
"Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink." And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Numbers 20:11
Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.
Psalm 78:15
He split the rocks in the wilderness And gave them abundant drink like the ocean depths.
Psalm 105:41
He opened the rock and water flowed out; It ran in the dry places like a river.
Remember, Christ/God, existed in body form before coming to earth.
For the body of God/Christ was First, and all the saved were in this body when they were saved.
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Luke 13:28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Matthew 8:12
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 22:13
Then the king told the servants, 'Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
The Jews who did not have faith before Jesus' ministry, they were already cut off. Cut off? That is right, cut off. Cut off from a body of Christ, a body of God. Christ means God. The body of Christ, the body of God existed before Christians, before Paul, before the appearing of Jesus in the flesh, for Jesus says the law and the prophets were about him.
Read these scriptures, they are things JESUS said about the body of Christ, the body of God which already existed before Jesus came to earth.
These scriptures show a cutting off of the Jews who did not have faith and obedience:
Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,
Now read these scripture, these scriptures prove the body of Christ...the body of God...existed even in the Old Testament times:
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Exodus 17:6
"Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink." And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Numbers 20:11
Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.
Psalm 78:15
He split the rocks in the wilderness And gave them abundant drink like the ocean depths.
Psalm 105:41
He opened the rock and water flowed out; It ran in the dry places like a river.
Remember, Christ/God, existed in body form before coming to earth.
For the body of God/Christ was First, and all the saved were in this body when they were saved.
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
God's Truth
New member
Christ means 'God'.
The body of God/Christ existed before the creation of anything.
All things were made through the body of God...the body of Christ.
There were saved people before Jesus came to earth; however, they still had to wait, even in their spirit condition, to be made perfect by the shedding of the blood of God, who reconciles the whole world to him.
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Though the whole world was made through the body of Christ/God, sin then separated us from God, the body. However, the saved before Jesus' appearing, they came near to God through their faith and obedience. Faith and obedience is the faith of Abel, and Noah, and then in Abraham.
When the people of the Old Testament times died, those who had faith and obedience, their spirits went to Abraham, for this was as close to God as one could be.
When Jesus came in the flesh and died for us, he took away the sin that separated us from God, the sins that separate us from the body of God.
That does not mean it does not matter anymore if we sin. It means we can confess and repent of our sins and be cleaned of those sins, while staying in the body of Christ...the body of God.
The body of God/Christ existed before the creation of anything.
All things were made through the body of God...the body of Christ.
There were saved people before Jesus came to earth; however, they still had to wait, even in their spirit condition, to be made perfect by the shedding of the blood of God, who reconciles the whole world to him.
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Though the whole world was made through the body of Christ/God, sin then separated us from God, the body. However, the saved before Jesus' appearing, they came near to God through their faith and obedience. Faith and obedience is the faith of Abel, and Noah, and then in Abraham.
When the people of the Old Testament times died, those who had faith and obedience, their spirits went to Abraham, for this was as close to God as one could be.
When Jesus came in the flesh and died for us, he took away the sin that separated us from God, the sins that separate us from the body of God.
That does not mean it does not matter anymore if we sin. It means we can confess and repent of our sins and be cleaned of those sins, while staying in the body of Christ...the body of God.
God's Truth
New member
So then, the world was made through the body of Christ, the body of God, but after Adam and Eve sinned, they were put out of the body, but could remain NEAR God by obedience.
Abel stayed near God by faith and obedience, Cain was kept further away from God.
In the times of Noah, Noah was kept near to God and the rest besides his family were kept further away.
In the time of Abraham, Abraham was near God, the body, because of his faith and obedience, and then a promise came to Abraham that all will be brought not only near God, but back in God, by the body of God, the body of Christ come in the flesh.
Abel stayed near God by faith and obedience, Cain was kept further away from God.
In the times of Noah, Noah was kept near to God and the rest besides his family were kept further away.
In the time of Abraham, Abraham was near God, the body, because of his faith and obedience, and then a promise came to Abraham that all will be brought not only near God, but back in God, by the body of God, the body of Christ come in the flesh.
God's Truth
New member
In the Old Testament times, those saved...those in God's favor...those who were near God...they were in the shadow of God's wings.
When Jesus came, he brought, and brings those near God, those in the shadow...he brings them back in God, in the body of God.
Psalm 63:7 Because you are my help, I sing in the shadow of your wings.
Ruth 2:12
"May the LORD reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge."
Psalm 17:8
Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me in the shadow of Your wings
When Jesus came, he brought, and brings those near God, those in the shadow...he brings them back in God, in the body of God.
Psalm 63:7 Because you are my help, I sing in the shadow of your wings.
Ruth 2:12
"May the LORD reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge."
Psalm 17:8
Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me in the shadow of Your wings
God's Truth
New member
Branches are NEAR the trunk, which signifies being near God, close to God, close to the body of Christ.
However, the Jews who were near God, near the body of Christ, they were cut off and put far away where the Gentiles were, the disobedient Gentiles who did not obey the commands of God.
Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
So now near God, near the body is to be put in the body, and the branches grafted in signify now nearness and part of, for anyone so near God will be a part of God, and is a part of God.
However, the Jews who were near God, near the body of Christ, they were cut off and put far away where the Gentiles were, the disobedient Gentiles who did not obey the commands of God.
Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
So now near God, near the body is to be put in the body, and the branches grafted in signify now nearness and part of, for anyone so near God will be a part of God, and is a part of God.
Interplanner
Well-known member
If you mean body of Christ in the way MAD does, and contrast to Israel, it's now how the NT sees things. What the Bible is concerned with is how we are justified before God, and even though it seems out of place in the narrative of Gen 12-20, there it is, when Abraham believes about his posterity. This is why the NT quotes that so much.
It does not necessarily change your path or fortune in life to be justified, although it is obviously a source of great joy. So it is not as though that is dramatically changed between the two periods, either. The NT is a matter of an awaited for promise being fulfilled in the resurrection, which is an event in which the redemptive power of God broke into this world and history, and showed that he was the perfect work of God and was enthroned.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
God's Truth
New member
What do you mean by if I mean the body of Christ in the way MAD does?
Abraham was NEAR GOD, but did not live to see the promise, he did not live to be put 'in' the body, but he watched from a far and then was put in the body when Christ reconciled the world to him.
What are you talking about? How do you mean it does not change your path in life? Being put in the body is everything.
So that is not a dramatic change?
Right Divider
Body part
Terrible post IP. Not even good enough to even have holes. It's just one big HOLE.