soulquestion
New member
The reason I refer you to books is because the answers you request are too long to key in here. They are book length. If you want all the answers you ask for, then you should read the books I reference because the answers to what I believe are in those books.Why do you keep claiming you've answered a question you plainly haven't answered?
The thread is still there for everyone to read.
The question you have answered, which I did not ask, is, "Is Jesus the Messiah?".
But the question I asked is, "Is Jesus God?".
Please answer the question I asked, not the one you wanted me to ask.
Here, I'll make it easy for you, and make it multiple choice:
Is Jesus God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I don't know
D. Some other position (explain)
No one has asked you if Jesus is the Messiah. We all agree that He is.
Twice, and now for a third time, I've asked you directly if Jesus is God. Is there some reason you cannot answer that direct question?
So you believe Paul taught things that were false?
Because that's what that means.
If Paul actually contradicted himself, then at least one of the contradictory statements must be false.
Which statements do you believe are false, and why?
No. Make the argument here. I'm debating you, not the author of that book. If you believe Paul contradicts himself, identify the contradictions and demonstrate them.
Define "soul regenerative theology," and demonstrate from Scripture that Jesus taught it.
Please specify these contradictions.
Otherwise it's just a proof-by-assertion fallacy.
I didn't ask you to settle 2,000 years of theological controversy.
I asked you what you believe.
Why are you treating a direct question about your own beliefs as though I've asked you to resolve a historical controversy?
You keep asserting that resurrection and reincarnation are the same thing, but you haven't demonstrated it.
Where does anastasis mean that a person dies and is subsequently born into another earthly body?
Jesus wasn't describing a third meaning of resurrection. He was answering the Sadducees' question about the resurrection of the dead.
Read Luke 20:34-36. Jesus explicitly distinguishes "this age" from "that age," in which those who attain the resurrection neither marry nor die anymore.
Where does He say anything about repeated earthly lives or escaping a reincarnation cycle?
You keep reading reincarnation into a passage that doesn't mention it.
You're still confusing what Jesus taught during His ministry with how He supposedly developed His theology during His formative years.
You can demonstrate that Jesus quoted the Old Testament. You can demonstrate that He lived according to God's law.
Neither establishes when or how He learned His theology.
What evidence does the author of "Jesus, the Formative Years" have concerning Jesus' theological development during the years Scripture tells us virtually nothing about?
Let's review the questions I've asked you, since you still haven't answered most of them directly.
The original seven questions:
1. Is Jesus Christ God, who existed before His incarnation? Please answer whether Jesus is God, not merely whether He is the Messiah.
2. What must a person do to be saved? How do you reconcile your answer with Paul's teaching about justification by faith apart from works in Romans 4?
3. What did Jesus Christ accomplish through His death, burial, and resurrection? I'm asking what His work accomplished, not merely what His resurrection demonstrated.
4. Do you believe the Bible is God's authoritative revelation, or are there other revelations with equal or greater authority? If you believe the biblical writers contradicted one another, by what standard do you determine which of them correctly understood God?
5. Where does Scripture teach reincarnation, and how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews 9:27?
6. Do you believe everyone will eventually be saved? You've answered yes, but what happens if someone continues refusing God, regardless of how often God tries to persuade them?
7. Given how little Scripture tells us about Jesus' childhood, on what basis does the author of Jesus, the Formative Years, How Jesus Developed His Theology claim to know how Jesus developed His theology?
Additional questions raised by your latest response:
8. Do you believe Paul taught things that were false? If so, identify the specific statements and explain why you believe they are false.
9. What do you mean by "soul regenerative theology," and where does Scripture teach that Jesus held such a theology?
10. What specific contradictions do you believe exist in Paul's writings? Please cite the passages and demonstrate the contradictions.
11. Where does the Greek word anastasis mean that someone dies and is subsequently born into another earthly body?
12. Where does Jesus teach that the resurrection described in Luke 20:34-36 means escaping a cycle of reincarnation?
I'm not asking whether you're entitled to your beliefs, whether scholars disagree, or whether these questions have been debated throughout history.
I'm asking what you believe and what evidence supports your claims.
Please answer the questions asked, rather than substituting different questions or referring me to books that supposedly contain the answers.
Concerning whether Jesus is God, read some of what Jesus said about himself in "Jesus said, by subject all he said in the Gospel":
Who was Jesus? Historians have been asking that question for 2,000 years. Here we have what Jesus said about himself.
By way of perspective, we might remember that Elijah, Elisha and other prophets written about in the Old Testament were able to raise the dead, multiply oil, make iron float and cure diseases. The Hebrews expected these signs from someone sent by God. Also, God told Moses, “I have made you a god to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). Solomon was called a son of God (1 Chronicles 22:7-10). Isaiah (45:1) tells us that King Cyrus (a Gentile) was anointed by God.
Jesus acknowledged that he was the Messiah that Moses had predicted would come and lead Abraham’s descendants. He also said that all those who hear the word of God and do it are his mother, brothers and sisters. When we submit to God as Jesus did, we re-enter that family relationship we had before the beginning of the material realm. Jesus is our brother, while he is also our teacher, example and guide to spiritual truths.
Luke 4:16-30 Jesus came to Nazareth, where he had grown up and, at the synagogue on the Sabbath day, he was handed the book of Isaiah (to read the haf-Torah portion for that day). He read (from Isaiah 61:1-3) the Spirit of God is on me and He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to captives, to heal the blind and strengthen with forgiveness the bruised (P) and to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Jesus then closed the book, sat down and said, today is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Then Jesus said, you will surely quote this proverb to me – physician, heal thyself. What we heard you did in Capernaum (healings) do also in this place. Truly I tell you, a prophet is not accepted in his own country. But I also tell you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah when there was a three year drought and famine, but Elijah was only sent to a widow in the city of Sidon. And there were many lepers in Israel at the time of Elisha, but none were cured except the Syrian, Naaman. The men in the synagogue became enraged and threw Jesus out of the city.
Matthew 16:13-20 Jesus asked his disciples: who do people say that I am? They answered that some say that he is John the Baptist. Others say that he is Elijah or Jeremiah or one of the prophets (who would have had to be reincarnated). Who do you say that I am, he asked? Simon answered, you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus responded, Simon bar Jonah you are blessed, because flesh and blood did not reveal that to you, but my Father in Heaven. I say to you that you are Peter (i.e., like a salt rock) and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven. Whatever you set loose on Earth will be set loosed in Heaven. He then told them to not tell others that he was the Christ (i.e., Messiah or anointed one). Also at Mark 8:27-30 and Luke 9:18-21, though both without Simon’s name change or mission.
Matthew 11:27 Jesus said, God gives me understanding. No one knows (intimately) the Son the way the Father knows him, nor does anyone know (intimately) the Father as well as the Son, and to whomsoever the Son explains Him. (Jesus sometimes used the word for “know” that means intimately.) Also at Luke 10:22.
Matthew 12:31-32 Jesus warned about an unforgiveable error. He said, truly I say to you, all kinds of sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against (i.e., asks for a curse on) the Holy Spirit is not forgiven either in this world or in the next. (Blasphemy means to ascribe God’s power to a person or object. When Jesus said he was the Son of God, during his trial before the Sanhedrin, he was accused of blasphemy (Mark 14:60-64)). In Mark 3:28-29 Jesus said that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit are in danger of eternal damnation. In Luke 12:10 Jesus said that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:46-50 When told that his mother and brothers stood outside and wanted to speak with him, Jesus responded, who is my mother; who are my brothers? Then he stretched his hands out to his disciples and said, look, here are my mother and brothers. Whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother, sister and mother. Also at Mark 3:31-35 and Luke 8:19-21.
Matthew 17:1-9 Jesus took Peter, James and John with him up a mountain. There he was transfigured. His face shone like the sun and his clothes were the whitest white. Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with him. Peter suggested building three tabernacles there. Then a voice came from a bright cloud and said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear him.” Peter, James and John bowed to the ground. Jesus touched them and said, stand up and don’t be afraid. When they stood up, Jesus was alone. Then he told them to not tell what they had seen until after he was raised from the dead. Mark 9:2-10 varies only in that they looked around rather than bowed. Luke 9:28-36 says Moses and Elijah talked with Jesus about his pending death in Jerusalem. He says the disciples were sleepy before the vision. They didn’t tell, but not because Jesus said not to tell.
(Jesus said, the children are exempt from the Temple Tax. See Matthew 17:24-27 in Holy Days.)
Matthew 19:16-17 A man greeted Jesus by saying, good master, but Jesus corrected him and said, why call me good? None is good except one – and that is God. Also at Mark 10:17-18. Luke 18:18-19 says the man was a ruler.
Matthew 20:20-23 The mother of Zebedee’s sons James and John praised Jesus. He asked her what she wanted. She asked him to promise that her sons would be at his right and left hands when he came into his kingdom. Jesus answered, you don’t understand what you are asking. Are they able to drink the cup (of experiences) that I will drink and be baptized with what I will be baptized? The men said they were able. Jesus then said, you will indeed drink the same cup and be baptized the same, but to sit on my right and left hands is not mine to choose but it will be chosen by God for whom it is prepared. Also at Mark 10:35-40 where Mark says that James and John asked, not their mother.
Matthew 23:8-10 Jesus said, don’t be called rabbi or master, because only the Christ is your master and you are all brothers. And don’t call any man on Earth your father, because you have only one Father, Who is in Heaven.
Luke 22:28 During the Last Supper Jesus said to the disciples, you have continued with me throughout my temptations.
John 3:13 Jesus said that no one has gone up to Heaven except the one who came down from Heaven, the Son of man who is (will be) in Heaven.
John 3:16-18 Talking with Nicodemus Jesus said, for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes him should not perish but have eternal life. God sent His son into the world not to condemn the world but so that the world through him might be saved. Whoever believes him is not condemned, but whoever does not is already condemned because he has not believed in the presence (teaching) of the only begotten Son of God.
John 4:25-26 The woman he met at the well asked Jesus if he was the Messiah (Moses had said would come. See Deuteronomy 18:15-19). Jesus said he was.
John 5:19 Jesus said that the Son can do nothing by himself, but only what he sees the Father doing.
John 5:30 and John 6:38 Jesus said that of his own self he can do nothing. He seeks not to do his will, but to do the will of the Father Who sent him.
John 7:16-18 At a Feast of Shelters, Jesus said, my teaching is not from me, but from the One Who sent me. Anyone who does the will of God will understand this teaching and whether it comes from God – whether it is God’s word or I speak for myself. Whoever speaks for himself seeks his own glory, but whoever seeks the glory of the One Who sent him, that one is true and there isn’t any unrighteousness in him.
John 7:25-29 Some in the crowd doubted that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus said, you know me and where I’m from, but I didn’t come of my own accord. He who sent me is true – and you don’t know Him. I know Him because I am from Him. He sent me.
John 6:25-35 Some of the multitude of the 5,000 for whom the bread had been multiplied, found Jesus the next day. Jesus said to them, truly I tell you, you don’t seek me because you saw a miracle but because you ate and were filled. Don’t work for meat that perishes but rather for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give you -- for God the Father has sealed him. They asked what should they do to work the works of God (i.e., to multiply bread). Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe (commit to) him whom God has sent. They asked for a sign, like that of the manna their ancestors ate in the desert. Jesus said, truly I tell you, Moses didn’t give you the bread from Heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from Heaven. The bread of God is he who came down from Heaven and gives life to the world. They asked Jesus to give them that bread forevermore. Jesus said, I am the bread of life (i.e., Jesus gives food for the spirit). He who comes to me shall never hunger and he who believes me (lives by my teachings) will never thirst.
John 6:51 Jesus referred to himself as the bread of life (the spiritual food (teaching)) that, if eaten (lived by) will result in eternal life (in God’s place).
John 6:66-70 After giving the symbol of eating his flesh and blood (the eucharist) many who had come to Jesus (after he fed 5,000) became confused and left him. Jesus asked the twelve disciples, will you also go away? Peter answered, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life and we believe and are sure that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus said, haven’t I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil.
John 8:12-19 Jesus said, I am the light of the world. Whoever lives by my word (logos/law) won’t walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. Pharisees complained that he testified about himself. Jesus said, even though I testify about myself, my testimony is true, because I know where I came from and where I’m going. You don’t know where I came from or where I’m going. You judge after the flesh (i.e., by material standards). I don’t judge. Yet, if I judge, my judgment is true because I’m not alone. I’m with the Father Who sent me. The law says that the testimony of two is true (see Deuteronomy 19:15 and 17:6). I am one and the Father Who sent me also witnesses for me. The Pharisees asked, where is your father? Jesus said, you know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me you would have known my Father also.
John 8:23-26 Jesus told the Pharisees, you are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world. So, I say that if you don’t believe that I am he (the Messiah) you will die in your sins. The Pharisees said, who are you? Jesus responded, the same that I’ve been telling you from the beginning. I have many things to say to test you. The One Who sent me is true and I tell to the world what I have heard from Him.
John 8:28-29 Responding to Pharisees, Jesus said, when you have lifted up the Son of man, then you’ll know that I am he and that I don’t do anything of myself, but only as my Father taught me do I speak. He that sent me is with me. I am not alone, because I always do what pleases Him.
John 8:42 If God was your Father you would love me, Jesus said, because I came from God. I didn’t come of myself, but He sent me.
John 9:4-5 Jesus said, I must do the works of the One Who sent me while it is day, for the night is coming when no man can work. As long as I am in the world I am the light of the world.
John 9:10-11, 14-16, 35-38 Jesus cured the man born blind and said, do you believe in the Son of God? The man said, who is he. Jesus said, you see him; he is talking to you. The man replied, lord, I believe. (Since Jesus had healed him on a Sabbath day, the Pharisees were divided. Some said Jesus couldn’t be from God because he healed on the Sabbath. Others said that a sinner couldn’t bring about such a healing.)
John 9:39-41 Jesus said, I came to this world for judgment, that those who don’t see (spiritually) might see, and they who (say they) see (are judged as) be(ing) blind. (When put to the test against Jesus’ teachings some people repent and change and others shut their spiritual ears and lose spiritually.) Jesus said to the Pharisees, if you were (honestly) blind, you wouldn’t have sin. But since you claim that you see (showing closed-mindedness) your sin remains.
John 10:1-18 Jesus said, truly I tell you, the one who comes into the sheepfold not by the door but some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The door keeper opens to him and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. The sheep follow him because they know his voice. They will run from a stranger because they don’t know the voice of a stranger. Truly I tell you, I am the door for the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers and the sheep didn’t listen to them. I am the door. Anyone who enters in through me (i.e., living by my teachings) can go in and out and find pasture (i.e., find what they need). A thief only comes to steal, kill and destroy. I have come so they (those who live by his teachings) might have life and have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd, who gives his life for the sheep. Those who are hired, who aren’t the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, see a wolf coming and run away. The wolf catches some and scatters the rest of the sheep. The hired man runs away because he is a hired man and he doesn’t care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me. As the Father knows me, so I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. There are other sheep I have that are not of this fold. I must also care for them. They will hear my voice and there will be one fold and one shepherd. That’s why my Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I take it up again. No man takes it from me. I lay it down myself. I have the power to lay it down and the power to take it up again. I have received this commandment from my Father. (References to God as the good shepherd are in Psalm 23 and Ezekiel 34. Ezekiel 34, 37:20-28 and Jeremiah 23:1-4 refer to priests as shepherds.)
John 10:22-39 Jesus was in Jerusalem for the Feast of Dedication (i.e., Hanukah). The Jews asked him to tell them if he was the Christ (i.e., the Messiah Moses had predicted would come (Deuteronomy 18:15-19)). Jesus replied, I told you and you didn’t believe me. The works I do in my Father’s name bear witness to who I am. But you don’t believe because you are not my sheep. As I said, my sheep hear my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them (via teachings and example the way to have) eternal life. They will never perish and no one will pluck them out of my hand. My Father, Who gave them to me, is greater than all – and no one is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one (in purpose (P)). The Jews picked up stones to throw at him (because they interpreted what he said as blasphemy -- i.e., making himself equal with God.) Jesus said, I’ve shown you many good works that came from my Father. For which of the works do you stone me? We stone you for blasphemy, they said. Jesus responded, isn’t it written in your law – I said, you are gods, of those to whom the word (logos/law) of God came (see Psalm 82 and also Genesis 6:1-4). And scripture can’t be dismissed. Why say to him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world that he blasphemes when he says, I am the Son of God? If it isn’t God’s works that I do, then don’t believe me. But even if you don’t believe me, believe the works so that you may understand that the Father is in me and I am in Him (i.e., one in purpose with Him (P)). The Jews still sought to attack him, but he left them.
John 11:25-26 Jesus told Lazarus’ sister, Martha, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes me, though he be dead (materially) yet shall he live (spiritually) and whoever lives and believes in (commits to) me will never die (i.e., will reverse the death of their soul and return to God’s place beyond substance and time).
John 12:35-36 Jesus said, the light will be with you only a little longer. Walk while you have the light, so that darkness doesn’t overcome you. Those who walk in darkness don’t know where they are going. While you have light believe in the light, that you may be children of light.
John 12:42-50 Some believed what Jesus taught, but they were afraid to speak out because they feared that the rulers of the synagogue would bar them from the synagogue. Jesus said, whoever believes me doesn’t believe only me, but also believes the One Who sent me. Whoever sees (understands) me sees (understands) Him Who sent me. I have come as a light into the world so that whoever believes (commits to) me won’t live in darkness (i.e., ignorance). If anyone hears my words and doesn’t believe, I won’t judge him, because I didn’t come to judge the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and my words has something that judges him – the word itself that I have spoken will judge him on the (his) last day. I haven’t spoken my own ideas, but the Father Who sent me commanded me what I should say and teach, and I know that His commands lead to eternal life. Whatever the Father tells me to say is what I teach.
John 14:12 Jesus said, truly I tell you, whoever believes (commits to) me will do the works that I do, and greater works than I have done will he do, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:18-20 Jesus told the disciples, I won’t leave you comfortless. I will come to you. In a short time the world won’t see me anymore, but then you will see me. Because I live (spiritually) you will live, too. On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
John 14:24 Jesus said, the word you have heard is not mine, but that of the Father Who sent me.
John 15:1-6 Though chapter 14 of John’s gospel ends with Jesus and the disciples on their way to the Mount of Olives, chapters 15, 16 and 17 continue his teaching to them. In chapter 15 Jesus starts by saying, I am the true vine and my Father is the vine dresser. Every branch that comes from me that doesn’t bear fruit He prunes (i.e., challenges) in an effort to cause it to bear more fruit. You are clean (spiritually) because of the words I have spoken to you. Live in me and I in you (i.e., absorb my teaching into your life). Since a branch cannot bear fruit by itself – it has to be part of the vine – so you can’t bear (spiritual) fruit unless you live in me (i.e., absorb my teaching into your lifestyle). I am the vine. You are the branches. Whoever lives in me and I in him will bring forth a lot of (spiritual) fruit. Without me you can’t do anything. Those who don’t live in me are cut off and wither, and men gather them and throw them into a fire to be burned.
John 14:27-28 Jesus told his disciples, don’t be afraid and don’t let your heart be troubled. You heard me say that I’m going away, but I will come to you again. If you loved me you would rejoice, because I am going to the Father and the Father is greater than I.
John 16:5-6 Jesus told the disciples, I’m going to go back to Him Who sent me and you don’t ask where I’m going, but because of what I’ve told you sorrow has filled your heart.
John 14:5-11 After telling the disciples that he would return (from preparing a place for them with God) Jesus said that they knew the way to where he was going. Thomas said, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way? Jesus replied, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me. If you have known me, you should also have known my Father. From now on you know Him and have seen (been taught about) Him. Philip said, show us the Father. Jesus replied, have I been with you so long, Philip and you don’t know (understand) me? Whoever has seen me (i.e., understood my teachings and works) has seen (understood) the Father. How can you say, show us the Father? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me? I haven’t spoken my own words. The Father Who is present with me does the works (I do). Believe that I am one in the Father and the Father is in me – or at least believe me for the sake of the works (that God does through me).
John 16:28 Jesus told his disciples, I came into the world from the Father. I am going to leave the world and return to the Father.
John 17:5 Jesus said that he existed with God before the material world existed.
(Jesus said that he had overcome the world. See John 16:29-33 in Prophecies.)
Matthew 26:63-64 When questioned by the chief priest as to whether he was the Christ (Messiah) Jesus said, you have said it. You will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of Heaven.
(Jesus said, “not my will but Thine be done,” when praying to God before his arrest. See Matthew 26:36-46 in Prayer and in Submission to God.)
All the quotes are from the King James Bible except where noted.
Jesus makes distinction between himself and God numerous times. He admits that he is the Messiah. So, I don't think of Jesus as God but as the Messiah who teaches us about God, about God and about our own spirit nature.
I can't quote the entire book "What They Don't Tell You About Paul, a critique" in this space. The answer you request isn't a one or two paragraph answer. You have to read that book to see the comparison between what Jesus said about being saved and what Paul wrote.
Re what did Jesus accomplish by his death and resurrection, read the answer I give to this same question in the next post.
Re what standard do I use to discern between writers, after studying Jesus' words I have an idea of what he was trying to teach us. I interpret what Bible scholars write through that lens. I also learn more about the deeper meanings of scripture by reading discussions and commentaries by Bible scholars.
You keep asking where scripture teaches reincarnation. I have given this information more than once. Last time I quoted the information from two books in their entirety.
The laws of spiritual nature correct us automatically. I don't believe that any soul will forever refuse to return to its home with God, eventually.
All your questions about Paul are answered in detail and fully referenced in the book I have suggested you read. I can't reproduce the whole book here. There is also background information, which is useful to understanding the answer but is too lengthy to add here.
Jesus taught soul regenerative theology. That was his mission, to tell us and show us how to regenerate our soul and return to God as obedient children. That's why he said, not everyone who praises me will go to Heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in Heaven (Matthew 7:21-27). Obedience to God is what regenerates our soul and that was the recurring theme in Jesus' teachings.
The first interpretation of anastasis is reincarnation, as given in the OT and by Paul in Acts. The second interpretation is resurrection, because Jesus returned to life after three days; he didn't reincarnate but he was dead and came back from death. Therefore the word anastasis was used but had to have a new connotation. In Matthew 22:23-32 Jesus said, you err because you don't understand either the scriptures or the power of God. For in the resurrection (anastasis) (from spiritual death (which is separation from God) to return to eternal spiritual life with God) they neither marry nor are given in marriage. (This is a new circumstance. If they reincarnated to Earth they would marry. For the final anastasis they do not marry.) They are like God's angels in Heaven, Jesus said. (He is obviously talking about a new kind of anastasis -- anastasis or rebirth of the spirit, not the body).