What Is Morality, and is it Absolute?

[soulquestion]

Concerning the concept that we are here to learn how to perceive and choose God’s will over our own please see the following.

(In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus tells us to pray that God’s will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven (i.e., we should submit to God’s will). See Matthew 6:9-15.).

Matthew 7:21-27 Not everyone who praises me will enter Heaven, Jesus said, but only those who do the will of my Father in Heaven.

Matthew 12:46-50 When told that his mother and brothers stood outside and wanted to speak with him, Jesus responded, who is my mother and who are my brothers? Then he stretched his hands out to his disciples and said, look, here are my mother and brothers. Whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother, sister and mother.

Luke 11:27-28 While Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd said, blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you. Jesus responded, yea, rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.

(Jesus said his food is to do the will of the One Who sent him. John 4:31-38.)

John 5:30-47 Jesus said, of my own self I can do nothing. As I hear, I judge and my judgment is just because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of the Father Who sent me.

John 14:29-31 At the Last Supper, Jesus told the disciples, I’ve told you what is going to happen before it happens, so when it does happen you might believe. I won’t talk to you much after this because the prince of this world is coming and he doesn’t have anything in (any control over) me. It (i.e., what is about to happen) is so that the world may know that I love the Father and I submit to whatever command the Father gives me. (Then, in John 15:1-6 he told us to do as he did, to be branches from his vine.)

(These quotes are from the book “Jesus Said… by subject, all he said in the Gospel”)

We cannot be released from the cycle of reincarnation until we learn to choose God’s will over our own. Jesus said, you may say you did great things in my name, but I will send you away and call you evil if you do not do the will of my Father in Heaven (Matthew 7:21-23). Where did he get that teaching? Actually, it is one of the most often repeated teachings in the Bible. Noah, Abraham, Jacob and Joseph all learned how to choose God’s will over their own. And though Moses said, not me, send someone else (Exodus 4:10-17) and Jonah tried to run from God (Jonah 1:1-17) they, too, eventually accepted their missions.

God has repeated and repeated this message through His messengers. If you forget your God you will perish for not having listened to the voice of God, Moses warned (Deuteronomy 8:19-20). God implored Israel and Judah to turn away from evil and keep His laws and guidance (2 Kings 17:13). You will be a unique treasure to Me if you keep My laws and do My will, God promised (Exodus 19:3-6). If only Israel would listen and keep My ways I would rescue them, God said (Psalm 81:13-14). If you, God’s servants, have not lived by the law nor submitted to God’s will, He will fall on you suddenly with judgment, Wisdom warned (Wisdom 6:4-6). Keep the commandments and be faithful to His will. God sets fire and water before you. Choose, wrote Ben Sira (Ecclesiasticus 15:15-16). Listen to God’s word. Do justly. Don’t injure the stranger, orphan or widow. Don’t shed innocent blood. If you don’t heed these commands your place will become a ruin, Jeremiah warned (Jeremiah 22:3-5).

They worshipped Him, but lied to Him. Their hearts were not right with God, a psalmist wrote (Psalm 78:36-37). Woe to rebels who don’t consult Me for their plans and so add sin to sin, God said (Isaiah 30:1). If only you had listened to My commandments your prosperity would have been like a river, God lamented (Isaiah 48:18). Those who abandon God are destined for the sword because I called and you would not answer. I spoke and you would not listen. You chose to do evil, God said (Isaiah 65:11-12). Zephaniah wrote that God will judge Judah for turning their back to God, for not seeking God or consulting Him (Zephaniah 1:4-6).

Through Hosea (8:7, 12-13) God said, I gave them the great things of My law but they thought them strange. They have sown the wind and will reap the whirlwind. God told the Hebrews through Ezekiel, You refused to keep My laws or live by My judgments that must be lived by for (spiritual) life and you profaned My Sabbaths…shall I let Myself be consulted by you? No…I will make you pass under the crook, bring you to respect the covenant and rid you of the rebels who revolt against Me (Ezekiel 20:21, 31, 37-38). Keep God’s law because to not keep it shows contempt for His holy name (presence) Moses warned (Numbers 15:30-31). Ezekiel warned, since you don’t live by God’s law or keep His holy days and since you defile God’s sanctuary, God will be against you without pity (Ezekiel 5:7-8, 11).

Hosea wrote, Israel has violated My covenant and been unfaithful to My law. In vain do they cry for God (Hosea 8:1-8). Amos wrote, Judah has despised God’s law and rejected His commandments. Fire will devour their palaces (Amos 2:4-5). On the day of God’s anger the whole Earth will be consumed and all the living will die. So seek God and be humble. Obey His commands; be upright and you may find shelter, Zephaniah counseled (Zephaniah 1:18, 2:3).

Throughout the Old Testament God strongly threatened the Hebrews if they did not keep the laws of the covenant He gave through Moses, and that their ancestors had agreed to at Mt. Horeb. Retribution was promised for those who chose against God’s rules. Wild animals would eat them and foreigners would eat their harvest (Jeremiah 5:5-17). They would be scattered and die by the sword (Jeremiah 9:11-16, 17:24-27). There would be a famine for God’s word but they wouldn’t find it. God would scatter them among the nations. They would fall and never rise again (Amos 8:4-14, 9:1-10). Darkness would come on them because of their injustice (Micah 2 and 3). They would be given to robbers (Isaiah 42:18-25) and die by fire and the sword (Isaiah 66:3-4, 15-17). Then, because those who were supposed to lead all nations back to God did not change and return to God’s rules after disasters came to them, God said He would pour out His indignation on all the Earth (Zephaniah 3:1-8; Isaiah 24:1-6). God arms creation to punish His enemies, Wisdom said (5:17-23). This comes about naturally as laws of spiritual nature are broken and the energies of rebellion permeate the Earth.

Isaiah wrote that God said He cannot endure Judah’s hypocrisy – their hands are covered in blood. End your wickedness and give justice and your sins will be gone. If you obey the law you will have good. If you refuse, the sword will have you (Isaiah 1:13-20). Woe to those who are full of guilt and pride, who call bad good and good bad, who acquit the guilty for a bribe and deny justice to the upright. Your root will decay for having rejected God’s law, Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 5:18-24). Earth is defiled by humans for they have transgressed the law, changed the ordnance and broken the everlasting covenant, he wrote (Isaiah 24:5). We are expected to live by God’s rules because it is a step toward being able to perceive His presence and daily guidance, so we can choose to do His will in specific situations.

God created us to have free will souls to communicate with. We insult God when we refuse to listen with our spirit to the Spirit of God, and we miss receiving the guidance that only the One Who sees and knows everything can give. Jeremiah wrote, God will bring disaster on you as the fruit of how you think. You don’t listen to My words and have rejected My law, God complained (Jeremiah 6:19). Prophets prophesy lies in God’s name, Jeremiah wrote (Jeremiah 14:14-15). Jeremiah preached, we have sinned; we have not listened to the voice of God (Jeremiah 3:25). When I brought your people from Egypt, God said, I gave no order about sacrifices. My one command to them was: listen to My voice. Then I will be your God (Jeremiah 7:22-23). Why is the country destroyed? Because they forsook My law and didn’t listen to or follow My guidance, God said (Jeremiah 9:12-13). Listen to My voice. Obey My orders. Then you will be My people and I will be your God, God promised (Jeremiah 11:4). Your ancestors abandoned Me and did not keep My law or listen to Me. You have behaved even worse. So I will eject you from this country and show you no more favor, God said (Jeremiah 16:11-13). (Judah) has kindled My great anger, which will burn forever. All are cursed whose heart turns from God…They rejected God, the fountain of Living Water, God said (Jeremiah 17:4-5, 13).

(These paragraphs are quoted from “Jesus, the Formative Years, How Jesus Developed His Theology”.)

 

[JudgeRightly]

Billions of people accept the concept of reincarnation. Billions of people reject it.

The popularity of an idea has no bearing on whether it is true.

Each and every one of us will be held accountable before God for what we believe and how we live.

So then learn the truth and stop teaching falsehoods.

Jesus teaches us how to allow God to guide us to interpret the scriptures, whose authors do not agree on all concepts.

Yeah, it's called letting the text speak for itself, not "I'm going to impose my personal interpretation on the scriotures and take that interpretation as the truth.

(I previously gave Bible references that refer to reincarnation.)

Scripture does not contradict scripture.

"It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement."

By saved by the Jews he meant himself and those Jews who became his followers, of which there were many. That God will live on Earth refers to the fact that God is everywhere in His creation, always present with us, and when all recognize His presence God will have come on Earth.

I reject your personal interpretation of the Bible in favor of what it actually says.

It doesn't mean that God is only on Earth.

Because you say so?

Where else would He be? Outer space?

I repeat that what I read in the Bible tells me that God loves all souls and though not all souls want to enter by the narrow gate and travel the hard road to salvation, all souls will have the opportunity to do so because God doesn't stop loving a soul just because it has made errors, is weak or is uninformed.

Stamping your foot and repeating yourself won't make what you say magically come true.

 

[Nick M]

For instance, God can kill a human

So can we. There is another term, amoral. Killing is not moral or immoral. This is why we have a vocabulary. Murder is always immoral. Killing is not.

 

[Derf]

So can we. There is another term, amoral. Killing is not moral or immoral. This is why we have a vocabulary. Murder is always immoral. Killing is not.

I allowed for that in my post, which you abbreviated.

Can God murder?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I allowed for that in my post, which you abbreviated.

Can God murder?

No, because He has the right to take back the life that he gave man however He sees fit.

Murder is the unjust taking of human life, and God will not act unjustly.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Concerning the concept that we are here to learn how to perceive and choose God’s will over our own please see the following.

(In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus tells us to pray that God’s will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven (i.e., we should submit to God’s will). See Matthew 6:9-15.).

Matthew 7:21-27 Not everyone who praises me will enter Heaven, Jesus said, but only those who do the will of my Father in Heaven.

Matthew 12:46-50 When told that his mother and brothers stood outside and wanted to speak with him, Jesus responded, who is my mother and who are my brothers? Then he stretched his hands out to his disciples and said, look, here are my mother and brothers. Whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother, sister and mother.

Luke 11:27-28 While Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd said, blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you. Jesus responded, yea, rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.

(Jesus said his food is to do the will of the One Who sent him. John 4:31-38.)

John 5:30-47 Jesus said, of my own self I can do nothing. As I hear, I judge and my judgment is just because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of the Father Who sent me.

John 14:29-31 At the Last Supper, Jesus told the disciples, I’ve told you what is going to happen before it happens, so when it does happen you might believe. I won’t talk to you much after this because the prince of this world is coming and he doesn’t have anything in (any control over) me. It (i.e., what is about to happen) is so that the world may know that I love the Father and I submit to whatever command the Father gives me. (Then, in John 15:1-6 he told us to do as he did, to be branches from his vine.)

(These quotes are from the book “Jesus Said… by subject, all he said in the Gospel”)

We cannot be released from the cycle of reincarnation until we learn to choose God’s will over our own. Jesus said, you may say you did great things in my name, but I will send you away and call you evil if you do not do the will of my Father in Heaven (Matthew 7:21-23). Where did he get that teaching? Actually, it is one of the most often repeated teachings in the Bible. Noah, Abraham, Jacob and Joseph all learned how to choose God’s will over their own. And though Moses said, not me, send someone else (Exodus 4:10-17) and Jonah tried to run from God (Jonah 1:1-17) they, too, eventually accepted their missions.

God has repeated and repeated this message through His messengers. If you forget your God you will perish for not having listened to the voice of God, Moses warned (Deuteronomy 8:19-20). God implored Israel and Judah to turn away from evil and keep His laws and guidance (2 Kings 17:13). You will be a unique treasure to Me if you keep My laws and do My will, God promised (Exodus 19:3-6). If only Israel would listen and keep My ways I would rescue them, God said (Psalm 81:13-14). If you, God’s servants, have not lived by the law nor submitted to God’s will, He will fall on you suddenly with judgment, Wisdom warned (Wisdom 6:4-6). Keep the commandments and be faithful to His will. God sets fire and water before you. Choose, wrote Ben Sira (Ecclesiasticus 15:15-16). Listen to God’s word. Do justly. Don’t injure the stranger, orphan or widow. Don’t shed innocent blood. If you don’t heed these commands your place will become a ruin, Jeremiah warned (Jeremiah 22:3-5).

They worshipped Him, but lied to Him. Their hearts were not right with God, a psalmist wrote (Psalm 78:36-37). Woe to rebels who don’t consult Me for their plans and so add sin to sin, God said (Isaiah 30:1). If only you had listened to My commandments your prosperity would have been like a river, God lamented (Isaiah 48:18). Those who abandon God are destined for the sword because I called and you would not answer. I spoke and you would not listen. You chose to do evil, God said (Isaiah 65:11-12). Zephaniah wrote that God will judge Judah for turning their back to God, for not seeking God or consulting Him (Zephaniah 1:4-6).

Through Hosea (8:7, 12-13) God said, I gave them the great things of My law but they thought them strange. They have sown the wind and will reap the whirlwind. God told the Hebrews through Ezekiel, You refused to keep My laws or live by My judgments that must be lived by for (spiritual) life and you profaned My Sabbaths…shall I let Myself be consulted by you? No…I will make you pass under the crook, bring you to respect the covenant and rid you of the rebels who revolt against Me (Ezekiel 20:21, 31, 37-38). Keep God’s law because to not keep it shows contempt for His holy name (presence) Moses warned (Numbers 15:30-31). Ezekiel warned, since you don’t live by God’s law or keep His holy days and since you defile God’s sanctuary, God will be against you without pity (Ezekiel 5:7-8, 11).

Hosea wrote, Israel has violated My covenant and been unfaithful to My law. In vain do they cry for God (Hosea 8:1-8). Amos wrote, Judah has despised God’s law and rejected His commandments. Fire will devour their palaces (Amos 2:4-5). On the day of God’s anger the whole Earth will be consumed and all the living will die. So seek God and be humble. Obey His commands; be upright and you may find shelter, Zephaniah counseled (Zephaniah 1:18, 2:3).

Throughout the Old Testament God strongly threatened the Hebrews if they did not keep the laws of the covenant He gave through Moses, and that their ancestors had agreed to at Mt. Horeb. Retribution was promised for those who chose against God’s rules. Wild animals would eat them and foreigners would eat their harvest (Jeremiah 5:5-17). They would be scattered and die by the sword (Jeremiah 9:11-16, 17:24-27). There would be a famine for God’s word but they wouldn’t find it. God would scatter them among the nations. They would fall and never rise again (Amos 8:4-14, 9:1-10). Darkness would come on them because of their injustice (Micah 2 and 3). They would be given to robbers (Isaiah 42:18-25) and die by fire and the sword (Isaiah 66:3-4, 15-17). Then, because those who were supposed to lead all nations back to God did not change and return to God’s rules after disasters came to them, God said He would pour out His indignation on all the Earth (Zephaniah 3:1-8; Isaiah 24:1-6). God arms creation to punish His enemies, Wisdom said (5:17-23). This comes about naturally as laws of spiritual nature are broken and the energies of rebellion permeate the Earth.

Isaiah wrote that God said He cannot endure Judah’s hypocrisy – their hands are covered in blood. End your wickedness and give justice and your sins will be gone. If you obey the law you will have good. If you refuse, the sword will have you (Isaiah 1:13-20). Woe to those who are full of guilt and pride, who call bad good and good bad, who acquit the guilty for a bribe and deny justice to the upright. Your root will decay for having rejected God’s law, Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 5:18-24). Earth is defiled by humans for they have transgressed the law, changed the ordnance and broken the everlasting covenant, he wrote (Isaiah 24:5). We are expected to live by God’s rules because it is a step toward being able to perceive His presence and daily guidance, so we can choose to do His will in specific situations.

God created us to have free will souls to communicate with. We insult God when we refuse to listen with our spirit to the Spirit of God, and we miss receiving the guidance that only the One Who sees and knows everything can give. Jeremiah wrote, God will bring disaster on you as the fruit of how you think. You don’t listen to My words and have rejected My law, God complained (Jeremiah 6:19). Prophets prophesy lies in God’s name, Jeremiah wrote (Jeremiah 14:14-15). Jeremiah preached, we have sinned; we have not listened to the voice of God (Jeremiah 3:25). When I brought your people from Egypt, God said, I gave no order about sacrifices. My one command to them was: listen to My voice. Then I will be your God (Jeremiah 7:22-23). Why is the country destroyed? Because they forsook My law and didn’t listen to or follow My guidance, God said (Jeremiah 9:12-13). Listen to My voice. Obey My orders. Then you will be My people and I will be your God, God promised (Jeremiah 11:4). Your ancestors abandoned Me and did not keep My law or listen to Me. You have behaved even worse. So I will eject you from this country and show you no more favor, God said (Jeremiah 16:11-13). (Judah) has kindled My great anger, which will burn forever. All are cursed whose heart turns from God…They rejected God, the fountain of Living Water, God said (Jeremiah 17:4-5, 13).

(These paragraphs are quoted from “Jesus, the Formative Years, How Jesus Developed His Theology”.)

Before going further, I'd like to get a better understanding of what you actually believe.

1. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God, who existed before His incarnation?

2. What must a person do to be saved?

3. What do you believe Jesus accomplished through His death and resurrection?

4. Do you believe the Bible is the authoritative Word of God, or do you believe there are other sources of divine revelation?

5. Where does Scripture teach reincarnation, and how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews 9:27?

6. Do you believe everyone will eventually be saved?

7. Given that Scripture tells us very little about Jesus' formative years, on what basis does the author of "Jesus, the Formative Years, How Jesus Developed His Theology" claim to know how Jesus developed His theology?

 

[Clete]

Billions of

Billions of people accept the concept of reincarnation.

Billions of people believe in Astrology.

Billions of people believe in ghosts.

Billions of people believe in lucky charms.

Billions of people are Atheists.

Billions of people are Catholic.

Billions of people are fill in the blank.

Billions of people understand your statement to be a textbook example of the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Billions of people reject it.

Both groups cannot be correct, right?

Each and every one of us will be held accountable before God for what we believe and how we live.

Jesus was held accountable in my place and He took the punishment that I deserve so that I might not die and He rose from the dead that I might live.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

Jesus teaches us how to allow God to guide us to interpret the scriptures, whose authors do not agree on all concepts.

The Word (Logos - Reason - Logic) became flesh and died and rose from the dead.

Don't insult the God Who is Reason itself by pretending its okay to be irrational. It isn't!

Those who disagree, do so because of reason, whether they are consciously using it or not. The same reason that causes them to disagree requires that they cannot all be right.

(I previously gave Bible references that refer to reincarnation.)

No you didn't.

You gave scripture references into which you read reincarnation. There's a difference.

By saved by the Jews he meant himself and those Jews who became his followers, of which there were many.

In John 4:22, Jesus is speaking to the Samaritan woman about the historical and theological origins of salvation. Reducing that statement to Jesus and the Jews who followed Him misses the point of the passage because it doesn't just ignore the context of the statement, it replaces the context with one that does not exist except inside your own mind.

That God will live on Earth refers to the fact that God is everywhere in His creation, always present with us, and when all recognize His presence God will have come on Earth.

If God's dwelling with mankind means nothing more than His already existing everywhere, then the prophecy announces nothing that wasn't already true.

If you're going to force the bible to say whatever you want it to say, then why bother reading the bible in the first place? Just go believe whatever it is you want to believe!

You instinctively bring the bible into it because you desire for your beliefs to have the Bible's credibility. A thief in an expensive suit is still a thief.

It doesn't mean that God is only on Earth. I repeat that what I read in the Bible tells me that God loves all souls and though not all souls want to enter by the narrow gate and travel the hard road to salvation, all souls will have the opportunity to do so because God doesn't stop loving a soul just because it has made errors, is weak or is uninformed.

God's love doesn't logically entail that He must provide unlimited opportunities for repentance. Nor does the Bible teach that people return repeatedly to earthly life until they finally make the correct decision.

• Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.
• Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’
• Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
• Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
• Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
• Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
• Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
• Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

One final point...
You say that, "Each and every one of us will be held accountable before God for what we believe and how we live." Yet you also insists that God will continue providing opportunities for salvation.

What exactly do you believe God's judgment accomplishes if those who reject Him simply get another opportunity to try again?

You will miss the point of that question, so let me spell it out....

You own stated beliefs defeat themselves!


So, you have plenty of problems....

1. The bible that you try to lean on cuts your legs out from under you.
2. Your own stated beliefs contradict themselves.
3. You do not care about either point 1 or 2.

As a result, you will not be moved one single inch off of your flagrant stupidity, no matter what anyone ever says to you.

 

[Derf]

No, because He has the right to take back the life that he gave man however He sees fit.

Murder is the unjust taking of human life, and God will not act unjustly.

Was Abraham wrong to question God's morality regarding taking of human life?
[Gen 18:23, 25 KJV] – 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? ... 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[soulquestion]

Before going further, I'd like to get a better understanding of what you actually believe.

1. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God, who existed before His incarnation?

2. What must a person do to be saved?

3. What do you believe Jesus accomplished through His death and resurrection?

4. Do you believe the Bible is the authoritative Word of God, or do you believe there are other sources of divine revelation?

5. Where does Scripture teach reincarnation, and how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews 9:27?

6. Do you believe everyone will eventually be saved?

7. Given that Scripture tells us very little about Jesus' formative years, on what basis does the author of "Jesus, the Formative Years, How Jesus Developed His Theology" claim to know how Jesus developed His theology?

1. Jesus said, several times, that he was the Messiah (God had promised to send and that Moses predicted). I believe what Jesus said, that he was the Messiah and that God spoke and worked through him. Yes, Jesus Christ existed before his incarnation.
2. Jesus said that to be saved we must love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength (Mark 12:29-31) we must be as humble as a child (Matthew 18:1-4) we must forgive others so our sins can be forgiven (Matthew 5:17-20) we must live by God's laws (Matthew 19:16-19) and we must reverse our rebellion by learning how to perceive and submit to God's daily guidance (Matthew 7:21-27). We must repent of choosing our will over God's and of all that we have done as a consequence (Matthew 4:17; Luke 24:46-47).
3. By his resurrection after death Jesus proved the reality and power of God, that we live in the spiritual realm after we die here and that the way he taught us to return to God is the true way. Following his teachings and example is how we are saved from continuing to sin. "Believe" actually means to commit to. To believe Jesus' teachings means we commit to living by them.
4. I believe the writers of the Bible were human beings who did not always agree with one another and who wrote their own interpretations and understandings as they felt God was guiding them. I also believe that God speaks in symbols (as Jesus often spoke in symbols and sometimes explained his symbols to the disciples, who didn't initially understand them). Symbols are open to interpretation and the Bible's authors (especially the prophets) have interpreted them -- not always consistently with one another.
5. The Sadducees rejected reincarnation, the Pharisees accepted it. Jesus agreed with the Pharisees. Anastasis means the arising or coming again to life of the dead. In the Apocrypha read Wisdom 2:23 and 16:13-14. (I've already given other references, which you choose to interpret differently than I do. This isn't unusual. Even professional Bible scholars disagree on the interpretation of certain verses in the Bible -- just read the Interpreter's Bible to see some of their many, many disagreements. You seem to think your way of reading the Bible is the only way. That just isn't true. You are entitled to your interpretation. I, and many others who study the Bible, am entitled to our interpretations, too.) If I didn't reference it before, Christian leaders St. Clement of Alexandria, who died in 220 and Origen, who died in 254, both taught reincarnation according to correspondence we have from them. Paul taught it (Acts 23:6-8 and 24:14-16). Constantine suppressed that teaching along with some others when he had the Gospels "harmonized". You base your rejection of reincarnation on one quote from Hebrews. I base my acceptance of it on many references in the Old Testament and the Gospels. Still, you are entitled to your interpretation.
6. Yes, I believe it is God's plan that no soul will be lost -- however long it takes, God wants every soul home.
7. I spent over twelve years studying Judaism so I could better understand Jesus' Jewish perspective and understand the deeper meaning of what he taught. I also used (and use) the laws (some are symbolic) in the old testament and find that it helps me better understand God's guidance to me. If you have a cross referenced Bible you can see for yourself that Jesus quotes and refers to writings in the Old Testament and the Apocrypha hundreds of times during his teachings. That is the basis for showing how Jesus developed his theology. He was reinterpreting the Old Testament for the Jews, who were living by the oral Mishnah, which in some ways rejected the Law of Moses. In addition, as is seen when Jesus' sayings are arranged in subject order, he had the unique ability to draw out of the Torah law the laws for spiritual nature, and that is what he taught that was so different that it split families and angered the religious leaders of his day. He threw out the hundreds of laws rabbis had added in the Mishnah and taught the Torah law by its intentions -- the laws of spiritual nature. You don't have to agree with me on any of this, but that doesn't make me any less a Christian and a child of God's. You are a child of God's, even though we don't interpret the Bible the same way that I do. Read professional Bible scholars -- they don't agree on many of the Bible's verses but they respect one another's rights to disagree. I have given my opinions. You have given your opinions. Is theology online limited to only one opinion?

 

[JudgeRightly]

1. Jesus said, several times, that he was the Messiah (God had promised to send and that Moses predicted). I believe what Jesus said, that he was the Messiah and that God spoke and worked through him. Yes, Jesus Christ existed before his incarnation.

You didn't answer the question.

Is Jesus God?

2. Jesus said that to be saved we must love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength (Mark 12:29-31) we must be as humble as a child (Matthew 18:1-4) we must forgive others so our sins can be forgiven (Matthew 5:17-20) we must live by God's laws (Matthew 19:16-19) and we must reverse our rebellion by learning how to perceive and submit to God's daily guidance (Matthew 7:21-27). We must repent of choosing our will over God's and of all that we have done as a consequence (Matthew 4:17; Luke 24:46-47).

You've listed numerous things we must do.

Sounds very much like a works-based system of salvation.

What happened to Christ's role?

What about what Paul taught in Romans 4?

3. By his resurrection after death Jesus proved the reality and power of God, that we live in the spiritual realm after we die here and that the way he taught us to return to God is the true way. Following his teachings and example is how we are saved from continuing to sin. "Believe" actually means to commit to. To believe Jesus' teachings means we commit to living by them.

Not what I asked.

What did Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection accomplish?

4. I believe the writers of the Bible were human beings who did not always agree with one another and who wrote their own interpretations and understandings as they felt God was guiding them. I also believe that God speaks in symbols (as Jesus often spoke in symbols and sometimes explained his symbols to the disciples, who didn't initially understand them). Symbols are open to interpretation and the Bible's authors (especially the prophets) have interpreted them -- not always consistently with one another.

If the biblical writers contradicted one another, by what consistent standard do you determine which of them correctly understood God?

And how do you know that your own interpretations are correct?

5. The Sadducees rejected reincarnation, the Pharisees accepted it. Jesus agreed with the Pharisees. Anastasis means the arising or coming again to life of the dead. In the Apocrypha read Wisdom 2:23 and 16:13-14. (I've already given other references, ...) . . . If I didn't reference it before, Christian leaders St. Clement of Alexandria, who died in 220 and Origen, who died in 254, both taught reincarnation according to correspondence we have from them. Paul taught it (Acts 23:6-8 and 24:14-16). Constantine suppressed that teaching along with some others when he had the Gospels "harmonized". You base your rejection of reincarnation on one quote from Hebrews. I base my acceptance of it on many references in the Old Testament and the Gospels. ...

Resurrection is not reincarnation. They're two different things.

You've presented several claims about who supposedly believed in reincarnation, but you haven't demonstrated that Scripture actually teaches it, nor have you reconciled your position with Hebrews 9:27.

So, again, I ask:

Where does Scripture teach reincarnation, and how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews 9:27? You claim to have provided other references, but the passages you've cited in this response do not establish reincarnation.

which you choose to interpret differently than I do. This isn't unusual. Even professional Bible scholars disagree on the interpretation of certain verses in the Bible -- just read the Interpreter's Bible to see some of their many, many disagreements. You seem to think your way of reading the Bible is the only way. That just isn't true. You are entitled to your interpretation. I, and many others who study the Bible, am entitled to our interpretations, too.) . . . Still, you are entitled to your interpretation.

This is all waffle, and I'm not going to respond to it.

6. Yes, I believe it is God's plan that no soul will be lost -- however long it takes, God wants every soul home.

What if they refuse? No matter how much God tries to convince them?

7. I spent over twelve years studying Judaism so I could better understand Jesus' Jewish perspective and understand the deeper meaning of what he taught. I also used (and use) the laws (some are symbolic) in the old testament and find that it helps me better understand God's guidance to me. If you have a cross referenced Bible you can see for yourself that Jesus quotes and refers to writings in the Old Testament and the Apocrypha hundreds of times during his teachings. That is the basis for showing how Jesus developed his theology. He was reinterpreting the Old Testament for the Jews, who were living by the oral Mishnah, which in some ways rejected the Law of Moses. In addition, as is seen when Jesus' sayings are arranged in subject order, he had the unique ability to draw out of the Torah law the laws for spiritual nature, and that is what he taught that was so different that it split families and angered the religious leaders of his day. He threw out the hundreds of laws rabbis had added in the Mishnah and taught the Torah law by its intentions -- the laws of spiritual nature. You don't have to agree with me on any of this, but that doesn't make me any less a Christian and a child of God's. You are a child of God's, even though we don't interpret the Bible the same way that I do. Read professional Bible scholars -- they don't agree on many of the Bible's verses but they respect one another's rights to disagree. I have given my opinions. You have given your opinions. Is theology online limited to only one opinion?

You didn't answer my question.

I didn't ask how long you've studied Judaism, nor did I ask how you interpret Jesus' teachings.

I asked what evidence the author of whatever it is you were quoting in post #21 has concerning how Jesus developed His theology during His formative years, a period about which Scripture tells us very little.

Knowing what Jesus taught during His ministry doesn't establish how He came to know it.

So, again, on what basis does the author claim to know how Jesus developed His theology?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Was Abraham wrong to question God's morality regarding taking of human life?
[Gen 18:23, 25 KJV] – 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? ... 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham was not wrong to challenge God. The God of the Bible is not some abstract Being that follows a set of programming rules to the letter.

 

[Clete]

You didn't answer the question.

Is Jesus God?

Seems to me like he definitely implied that he does not believe that Jesus is God and merely believes that his existence prior to being Jesus was just his previous "reincarnation".

He clearly is not a Christian. I don't have any idea why he cares to make it look like he is one.

 

[Nick M]

If you're going to force the bible to say whatever you want it to say, then why bother reading the bible in the first place? Just go believe whatever it is you want to believe!

The reason to do so is nefarious.

 

[soulquestion]

You didn't answer the question.

Is Jesus God?



You've listed numerous things we must do.

Sounds very much like a works-based system of salvation.

What happened to Christ's role?

What about what Paul taught in Romans 4?



Not what I asked.

What did Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection accomplish?



If the biblical writers contradicted one another, by what consistent standard do you determine which of them correctly understood God?

And how do you know that your own interpretations are correct?



Resurrection is not reincarnation. They're two different things.

You've presented several claims about who supposedly believed in reincarnation, but you haven't demonstrated that Scripture actually teaches it, nor have you reconciled your position with Hebrews 9:27.

So, again, I ask:

Where does Scripture teach reincarnation, and how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews 9:27? You claim to have provided other references, but the passages you've cited in this response do not establish reincarnation.



This is all waffle, and I'm not going to respond to it.



What if they refuse? No matter how much God tries to convince them?



You didn't answer my question.

I didn't ask how long you've studied Judaism, nor did I ask how you interpret Jesus' teachings.

I asked what evidence the author of whatever it is you were quoting in post #21 has concerning how Jesus developed His theology during His formative years, a period about which Scripture tells us very little.

Knowing what Jesus taught during His ministry doesn't establish how He came to know it.

So, again, on what basis does the author claim to know how Jesus developed His theology?

Here is a recap of the information I gave before regarding reincarnation, with a little bit of added info.

From “A Few Laws of Spiritual Nature”

To the ancients, reincarnation was obvious. Just as plants die in the autumn and regenerate every spring, it was obvious that after humans die they return as newborn babes.

Historically, the concept of reincarnation was taught very early in the religions of India. It was taught that words and acts create a record impressed on the spirit, and that this record carries over from one life to the next. Since our goal is to develop perfect spiritual balance, and we can’t develop it in one lifetime, reincarnation gives us the opportunity to build it piece by piece. In the caste system, which is unique to Hinduism, it is maintained that souls are reborn into a fixed social status.

Other groups also have taught reincarnation. Gold tablets found in the graves of members of the Dionysus cult in Greece and Italy dating from the fifth century B.C. to the second century A.D. give instructions for how to guide the souls of the dead so they can avoid repeating in their coming life the errors they made in the past.

The Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have taught reincarnation. In Deuteronomy (30:4-5 TNJB) it is reported that God brings us back to Earth from the corners of Heaven. Psalm 90 (vs. 3-5) tells us that God brings us to dust, and in the morning we grow like grass. The likely reason why the Bible’s writers didn’t question why God told Rebekah the adult fate of the twins still in her womb is because they accepted that we all return to continue patterns we began in previous lives. (GN 25:21-26) Isaiah (26:19) proclaimed, your dead will come back to life. Your corpses will rise again. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust, for your dew is the dew of light (P).

Malachi (3:23-24 (or at 4:5-6)) predicted that Elijah would reincarnate before the “Day of the Lord.” In Luke (1:11-17) we are told that a baby (who later became known as John the Baptist) would be born with the spirit and power of Elijah. Jesus led his disciples to understand that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. (MT 11:7-10, 17:10-13) John the Baptist said that Jesus had lived before him. Joshua lived before Elijah. (JN 1:15, 30)

When Jesus’ disciple Peter asked about rewards for the apostles, Jesus said they would be richly rewarded in the “regeneration.” (MT 19:27-29 G-E) The book of John reports that Jesus said that those who have done good will resurrect to a good life and those who have done evil will resurrect to judgment. (JN 5:28-29) In the Bible the same word that is now translated as resurrection (anastasis – literally the arising or coming back to life of the dead) can also be understood to mean reincarnation.

Jesus’ parable about laborers hired at different times of the day but all paid the same was about reincarnation. Some souls labor here longer than others, but the ultimate reward -- eternal life with the Creator beyond time and substance -- is the same for all. (MT 20:1-16)

Paul, a prominent first century Christian teacher, expressed belief in reincarnation when he was on trial. (Acts 23:6, 24:14-16) As a result, we have a record that early Christians taught reincarnation. Records also show that it was part of the doctrine of the early Christian writers St. Clement of Alexandria (150-220) and of Origen (185-254) one of his students. The teaching of reincarnation did not come into disfavor until the church came under the influence of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century.

Muhammad also taught reincarnation. He said that some ask, who will cause them to come back to life? The One Who created you the first time, he answered. (S. 17:51) Consider how Allah gives life to the Earth after its death. Similarly, He gives life to those who are dead, for He has complete power. (S. 30:50) He causes the living to come from the dead, and the dead from the living. (S. 6:95)

In Jesus’ day there was a raging debate between the Sadducees (the rich businessmen of his day) who denied reincarnation and the existence of the spiritual realm, and the law-conscious Pharisees, who taught the reality of both. Jesus taught both that we are alive after death and that we are judged in the spiritual realm. His gruesome death by crucifixion, followed by his resurrection, settled the debate. That he could appear and disappear at will, eat food, be touched and yet ascend into Heaven in the sight of his followers proved the reality of the spiritual realm and that our spirits live there after our bodies die on Earth. (JN 20:1-29; LK 24:13-35; 1 Corinthians 15:3-7; Acts 1:1-11, 2:22-36) This also validated Jesus’ teachings about how to live while we are on Earth in order to best prepare for our rebirth in the spiritual realm.

Revelation (3:10-13) affirms that those who live by God’s Law become like pillars and “go out no more.” After knowledge of the laws God created becomes a permanent, intimate part of us, we become able to perceive and choose God’s daily guidance over our own willfulness and, therefore, we are able to sin no more -- because all sin is choosing our will over God’s will. When we learn how to choose to completely submit to God, we prepare ourselves to blend back into our Creator’s rhythm and return to live forever in God’s place beyond time and substance. Therefore, we go out (reincarnate) no more.

The concept of reincarnation was made popular in America in the 1930’s by Edgar Cayce, the “sleeping prophet.” Mr. Cayce put himself into a self-induced trance and sought medical advice for people who consulted him. During this process he discovered that his clients had had previous lives which sometimes had an impact on their current health.

Since then several books have been written by those who have researched this subject. Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect, one of the books by Ian Stevenson, M.D., and Other Lives, Other Selves: A Jungian Psychotherapist Discovers Past Lives, by Roger J. Woolger, Ph.D. are among those that examine reincarnation.

It is important to learn the laws that govern the spiritual realm, because doing so can help us disentangle from severe repercussions that could come to us as a result of having broken laws in the past. Learning the fixed laws of spiritual nature and choosing to live by them has the power to rehabilitate our damaged spirit and strengthen us as we inevitably meet again tests that made us stumble in the past, whether in this life or previous lives. When we learn and live the laws we can be “forgiven” or “not judged” for not having lived them in the past.

From “Jesus, the Formative Years”

There was constant heated debate among the Jews about whether or not humans possess a spirit and whether it lives after the body dies. One psalmist claimed that the dead do not praise God (Psalm 115:17). The author of Job argued against his own positive opinion and said, in a few years I will go the way from which I shall not return – where light is darkness (Job 16:22, 10:20-22). But Jesus said, it is the spirit that gives life. The flesh has nothing to offer (John 6:63). What caused Jesus to come down on the side of those who taught that we have a living spirit within us that continues to live after the body dies and, further, that it is judged in the spiritual realm? …

The most obvious reference (to the spirit being alive after death) is in 1 Samuel 28:9-19 where the Witch of En-dor called up the spirit of Samuel, who was dead, and he spoke with King Saul. Also, Solomon wrote, then shall the dust return to the Earth and the spirit shall return to God, Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). A psalmist wrote, whom do I have in Heaven but You, God. You will receive me to glory (Psalm 73:24-25). A psalmist also wrote that all who are buried will bow before God (Psalm 22:29).

Job said that after his death and worms destroy his body, yet will he see God (Job 19:25-26). Job also wrote, in God’s hand is the soul of every living thing and the breath of all humans (Job 12:7-10). In 1 Kings 17:17-24 we are told that Elijah prayed to God for a dead child’s soul to return to him, and it did. All of these witnesses in the Old Testament confirmed that our spirit lives after our body dies. Our spirit is made in the likeness of the ever living Spirit that is God, and we have a relationship with God, the Designer and Creator of the material and spiritual realms.

Though the rich Sadducees of Jesus’ day rejected the concept of the human spirit and claimed that death was final with nothing beyond, the Pharisees, who taught the law, acknowledged the spirit and claimed that it continues to live after the body dies. Jesus agreed with the Pharisees and taught that where we spend our time in the spiritual realm after death depends on how we live in this realm. Where did Jesus learn that we are held accountable after death?

That we are judged after death is affirmed in Job 34:22 which says, there is no shadow of death where workers of evil may hide themselves. In the story of the money given to three servants with the expectation that they would use it to gain more – a symbol for skills we are born with that we are expected to increase – Jesus pointed out that the servant who hid his money (skills) was thrown into darkness at the time of his accounting (death) (Matthew 25:14-30).

The Greek word, anastasis, means the arising or coming again to life of the dead. It is used several times in the Old Testament to refer to reincarnation. It only began to mean resurrection after Jesus rose from the dead after just three days. God created humans to live forever, Wisdom tells us (Wisdom 2:23) like His own (Spiritual) Self. God has power over life and death. He brings to the gates of Hell and back again, Wisdom said (Wisdom 16:13-14). Testifying to this Jesus said, God is God of the living, not the dead, for all are alive to God (Luke 20:37-38).

The book of Psalms was one of Jesus’ favorite books. He probably repeated some psalms to himself as he was working, just as we sing or listen to music as we work. He quotes from psalms or refers to them many times in the Gospels. In the psalms it is said, God won’t leave my soul in Hell (Psalm 16:9-10). God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (Psalm 49:15). God brings us to dust and in the morning we grow like grass (Psalm 90:3-5). Psalm 110 predicted that the promised Messiah would be a descendant of King David and would be Melchizedek reincarnated (see Genesis 14:18-20).

Jesus quoted this prediction when he aligned himself with the concept of reincarnation taught by the Pharisees (Matthew 22:41-46). He asked them, whose son is the Messiah. They said, King David’s. Jesus said, then why did David call him lord (master)? If he is David’s master, how can he be his son? The Pharisees accepted this as proof that Jesus taught reincarnation.

Isaiah, who wrote a book Jesus also quotes from or refers to many times, said that God swallows death in victory (Isaiah 25:8) and that the dead will live again. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust, Isaiah wrote, for your condensation is light (Isaiah 26:19). In Deuteronomy 30:4 Moses wrote that God will gather souls from the farthest part of Heaven and return them to Earth. In Hannah’s song of thanks for the birth of Samuel she said, God kills and God makes alive, He brings to the grave and raises up (1 Samuel 2:6). Daniel wrote that many who sleep in the dust will awake – either to a good life or to condemnation (Daniel 12:2). Jesus repeated this prediction and said that those in graves would hear his voice and come again. Those who did good would reincarnate to life and those who did evil would reincarnate to damnation, he said, using the word anastasis (John 5:28-29).

Jesus also learned about the concept of reincarnation from Jeremiah where God told him, before I formed you in the womb I knew you and before your birth I sanctified you and ordained you a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:4-5). At the beginning of the story of Job (1:21) Job says, naked I came from my mother’s womb, naked I shall return thither. In the book of Wisdom Solomon says that he had received a good soul or, rather, because he was good, he had entered a good body (Wisdom 8:19-20).

God predicted before Rebecca’s twins were born that the elder would serve the younger (Genesis 25:20-26). Such a prediction only makes sense if Esau and Jacob were coming to continue patterns of behavior they began in previous lives. (Though, because we have free will, predictions like this are not set in stone. Esau, the elder brother, did not serve Jacob, nor did he forfeit his birthright, as is claimed in Genesis 25:29-34 (meaning a double portion of the financial inheritance from his parents, see Deuteronomy 21:15-17) though, apparently, Jacob did (Genesis 32:6-21, 33:1-16). As things turned out, over the centuries Hebrews intermarried with Edomites (Esau’s descendants) and the last king of Israel was a descendant of Esau.)

The prophet Malachi predicted that Elijah would come to Earth again before the “day of the Lord” (Malachi 4:5-6). At the beginning of the book of Luke an angel told the high priest, Zacharias, that his wife, who had been barren, would bear a son with the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:11-19). That child became John the Baptist. Jesus led his disciples to see that John the Baptist was Elijah, who had been foretold by Malachi (Matthew 11:7-15, 17:10-13). He said it was of John that it was written that a messenger would go before the Messiah to prepare his way. He said Elijah had already come but he wasn’t recognized, and his disciples realized Jesus was referring to John the Baptist.

Jesus’ story about workers hired at different times of the day but all paid the same was about reincarnation (Matthew 20:1-16). However often we come to Earth to learn the spiritual lessons we need to learn here the reward (eternal life with God and the end of our reincarnation cycle) is the same. Some learn their lessons after only a few lives. Some return in many lives. No matter how often we come or how long we stay the ultimate reward is the same.

Jesus told us to invite the poor to our celebrations, for we will be recompensed at the reincarnation of the just (Luke 14:12-14). He said he came from the Father and came into the world again, and that he would leave and return to the Father (John 16:28).

His disciples, who accepted his teachings about reincarnation, asked if a man born blind had sinned before his birth. In that case, Jesus said, no. He had chosen to be born blind so God’s works would be shown in him. His healing drew many people to pay attention to the Messiah God had promised and sent and through whom God was speaking and working (John 9:1-3).

Christians may wonder why reincarnation is not taught in most Christian churches today. Early church documents show that reincarnation was taught by St. Clement of Alexandria, who lived until 220 A.D., and by Origen, who died in 254. Also, when he was on trial before the Sanhedrin, the evangelist Paul said, I am a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee. Of the hope and resurrection (reincarnation) of the dead I am called into questioning (Acts 23:6-8). Again, when he was brought before the civil authorities, he said, and I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection (reincarnation) of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and therein do I exercise myself to have always a conscience void of offense toward God and toward man (Acts 24:14-16).

Constantine, who became Rome’s Emperor in 306, was the first national ruler to accept Christianity. He had the several versions of the Gospels that had survived his predecessor’s purge of Christian books, harmonized, and in the process imposed his will on church doctrine. He took sides in the debate that had developed within the church concerning Jesus’ identity, and he suppressed Jesus’ teachings concerning reincarnation, among other things. These teachings can still be found in the Gospels but they are not as prominent as they were in the early church, according to letters we have from church leaders who pre-dated Constantine.

(Another note: No one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews. There was much debate at the time of Christ about reincarnation. The author of Hebrews obviously was one of those who rejected the concept, though there were many who accepted it in Jesus' day, as he did himself.)

Now, to some of your other comments.

I did answer your first question. Jesus is the Messiah God promised and sent, and through whom God spoke and worked. Paul is inconsistent
throughout his writings. Read the book "What They Don't Tell You About Paul, a critique" for a comparison of Jesus' theology with Paul's writings. Jesus is 100% consistent in teaching a soul regenerative theology. Paul is inconsistent, contradictory and makes some dead end proclamations.
The identity of Jesus Christ has been debated for 2,000 years. The early church split over this and other issues in 1054. Wars have been fought over this issue. Many have been martyred for claiming Jesus was God. Many have been martyred for denying that Jesus is God. You and I are not going to solve this issue.

The Greek word used for resurrection (anastasis) is the same word used for reincarnation in the Old Testament and the New Testament. In addition, Jesus gave a third meaning to the word in his discussion about the woman with seven marriages. He said that those who resurrect (and return to God) do not die again but become like angels, children of the resurrection. Meaning we can end the reincarnation cycle and return to God. This was his third meaning to the word, which originally always referred to reincarnation until Jesus resurrected after being dead only three days -- then it began to mean his resurrection.

Jesus came to his theology by studying the Old Testament, living by the laws of Moses and surrendering himself to God's guidance -- all of which is shown in his teachings and lifestyle. Jesus not only lived by the laws of Moses, he also told us we should live by them.

 

[Clete]

The reason to do so is nefarious.

That's right! As I said to him in that same post...

"You instinctively bring the bible into it because you desire for your beliefs to have the Bible's credibility. A thief in an expensive suit is still a thief."

He wants to have the credibility that adherence to the bible offers without having to deal with any of the consequences (i.e. the cost) of doing so. It's the religious version of stolen valor.

 

[Clete]

Here is a recap of the information I gave before regarding reincarnation, with a little bit of added info.

From “A Few Laws of Spiritual Nature”

To the ancients, reincarnation was obvious. Just as plants die in the autumn and regenerate every spring, it was obvious that after humans die they return as newborn babes.

Historically, the concept of reincarnation was taught very early in the religions of India. It was taught that words and acts create a record impressed on the spirit, and that this record carries over from one life to the next. Since our goal is to develop perfect spiritual balance, and we can’t develop it in one lifetime, reincarnation gives us the opportunity to build it piece by piece. In the caste system, which is unique to Hinduism, it is maintained that souls are reborn into a fixed social status.

Other groups also have taught reincarnation. Gold tablets found in the graves of members of the Dionysus cult in Greece and Italy dating from the fifth century B.C. to the second century A.D. give instructions for how to guide the souls of the dead so they can avoid repeating in their coming life the errors they made in the past.

The Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have taught reincarnation. In Deuteronomy (30:4-5 TNJB) it is reported that God brings us back to Earth from the corners of Heaven. Psalm 90 (vs. 3-5) tells us that God brings us to dust, and in the morning we grow like grass. The likely reason why the Bible’s writers didn’t question why God told Rebekah the adult fate of the twins still in her womb is because they accepted that we all return to continue patterns we began in previous lives. (GN 25:21-26) Isaiah (26:19) proclaimed, your dead will come back to life. Your corpses will rise again. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust, for your dew is the dew of light (P).

Malachi (3:23-24 (or at 4:5-6)) predicted that Elijah would reincarnate before the “Day of the Lord.” In Luke (1:11-17) we are told that a baby (who later became known as John the Baptist) would be born with the spirit and power of Elijah. Jesus led his disciples to understand that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. (MT 11:7-10, 17:10-13) John the Baptist said that Jesus had lived before him. Joshua lived before Elijah. (JN 1:15, 30)

When Jesus’ disciple Peter asked about rewards for the apostles, Jesus said they would be richly rewarded in the “regeneration.” (MT 19:27-29 G-E) The book of John reports that Jesus said that those who have done good will resurrect to a good life and those who have done evil will resurrect to judgment. (JN 5:28-29) In the Bible the same word that is now translated as resurrection (anastasis – literally the arising or coming back to life of the dead) can also be understood to mean reincarnation.

Jesus’ parable about laborers hired at different times of the day but all paid the same was about reincarnation. Some souls labor here longer than others, but the ultimate reward -- eternal life with the Creator beyond time and substance -- is the same for all. (MT 20:1-16)

Paul, a prominent first century Christian teacher, expressed belief in reincarnation when he was on trial. (Acts 23:6, 24:14-16) As a result, we have a record that early Christians taught reincarnation. Records also show that it was part of the doctrine of the early Christian writers St. Clement of Alexandria (150-220) and of Origen (185-254) one of his students. The teaching of reincarnation did not come into disfavor until the church came under the influence of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century.

Muhammad also taught reincarnation. He said that some ask, who will cause them to come back to life? The One Who created you the first time, he answered. (S. 17:51) Consider how Allah gives life to the Earth after its death. Similarly, He gives life to those who are dead, for He has complete power. (S. 30:50) He causes the living to come from the dead, and the dead from the living. (S. 6:95)

In Jesus’ day there was a raging debate between the Sadducees (the rich businessmen of his day) who denied reincarnation and the existence of the spiritual realm, and the law-conscious Pharisees, who taught the reality of both. Jesus taught both that we are alive after death and that we are judged in the spiritual realm. His gruesome death by crucifixion, followed by his resurrection, settled the debate. That he could appear and disappear at will, eat food, be touched and yet ascend into Heaven in the sight of his followers proved the reality of the spiritual realm and that our spirits live there after our bodies die on Earth. (JN 20:1-29; LK 24:13-35; 1 Corinthians 15:3-7; Acts 1:1-11, 2:22-36) This also validated Jesus’ teachings about how to live while we are on Earth in order to best prepare for our rebirth in the spiritual realm.

Revelation (3:10-13) affirms that those who live by God’s Law become like pillars and “go out no more.” After knowledge of the laws God created becomes a permanent, intimate part of us, we become able to perceive and choose God’s daily guidance over our own willfulness and, therefore, we are able to sin no more -- because all sin is choosing our will over God’s will. When we learn how to choose to completely submit to God, we prepare ourselves to blend back into our Creator’s rhythm and return to live forever in God’s place beyond time and substance. Therefore, we go out (reincarnate) no more.

The concept of reincarnation was made popular in America in the 1930’s by Edgar Cayce, the “sleeping prophet.” Mr. Cayce put himself into a self-induced trance and sought medical advice for people who consulted him. During this process he discovered that his clients had had previous lives which sometimes had an impact on their current health.

Since then several books have been written by those who have researched this subject. Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect, one of the books by Ian Stevenson, M.D., and Other Lives, Other Selves: A Jungian Psychotherapist Discovers Past Lives, by Roger J. Woolger, Ph.D. are among those that examine reincarnation.

It is important to learn the laws that govern the spiritual realm, because doing so can help us disentangle from severe repercussions that could come to us as a result of having broken laws in the past. Learning the fixed laws of spiritual nature and choosing to live by them has the power to rehabilitate our damaged spirit and strengthen us as we inevitably meet again tests that made us stumble in the past, whether in this life or previous lives. When we learn and live the laws we can be “forgiven” or “not judged” for not having lived them in the past.

From “Jesus, the Formative Years”

There was constant heated debate among the Jews about whether or not humans possess a spirit and whether it lives after the body dies. One psalmist claimed that the dead do not praise God (Psalm 115:17). The author of Job argued against his own positive opinion and said, in a few years I will go the way from which I shall not return – where light is darkness (Job 16:22, 10:20-22). But Jesus said, it is the spirit that gives life. The flesh has nothing to offer (John 6:63). What caused Jesus to come down on the side of those who taught that we have a living spirit within us that continues to live after the body dies and, further, that it is judged in the spiritual realm? …

The most obvious reference (to the spirit being alive after death) is in 1 Samuel 28:9-19 where the Witch of En-dor called up the spirit of Samuel, who was dead, and he spoke with King Saul. Also, Solomon wrote, then shall the dust return to the Earth and the spirit shall return to God, Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). A psalmist wrote, whom do I have in Heaven but You, God. You will receive me to glory (Psalm 73:24-25). A psalmist also wrote that all who are buried will bow before God (Psalm 22:29).

Job said that after his death and worms destroy his body, yet will he see God (Job 19:25-26). Job also wrote, in God’s hand is the soul of every living thing and the breath of all humans (Job 12:7-10). In 1 Kings 17:17-24 we are told that Elijah prayed to God for a dead child’s soul to return to him, and it did. All of these witnesses in the Old Testament confirmed that our spirit lives after our body dies. Our spirit is made in the likeness of the ever living Spirit that is God, and we have a relationship with God, the Designer and Creator of the material and spiritual realms.

Though the rich Sadducees of Jesus’ day rejected the concept of the human spirit and claimed that death was final with nothing beyond, the Pharisees, who taught the law, acknowledged the spirit and claimed that it continues to live after the body dies. Jesus agreed with the Pharisees and taught that where we spend our time in the spiritual realm after death depends on how we live in this realm. Where did Jesus learn that we are held accountable after death?

That we are judged after death is affirmed in Job 34:22 which says, there is no shadow of death where workers of evil may hide themselves. In the story of the money given to three servants with the expectation that they would use it to gain more – a symbol for skills we are born with that we are expected to increase – Jesus pointed out that the servant who hid his money (skills) was thrown into darkness at the time of his accounting (death) (Matthew 25:14-30).

The Greek word, anastasis, means the arising or coming again to life of the dead. It is used several times in the Old Testament to refer to reincarnation. It only began to mean resurrection after Jesus rose from the dead after just three days. God created humans to live forever, Wisdom tells us (Wisdom 2:23) like His own (Spiritual) Self. God has power over life and death. He brings to the gates of Hell and back again, Wisdom said (Wisdom 16:13-14). Testifying to this Jesus said, God is God of the living, not the dead, for all are alive to God (Luke 20:37-38).

The book of Psalms was one of Jesus’ favorite books. He probably repeated some psalms to himself as he was working, just as we sing or listen to music as we work. He quotes from psalms or refers to them many times in the Gospels. In the psalms it is said, God won’t leave my soul in Hell (Psalm 16:9-10). God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (Psalm 49:15). God brings us to dust and in the morning we grow like grass (Psalm 90:3-5). Psalm 110 predicted that the promised Messiah would be a descendant of King David and would be Melchizedek reincarnated (see Genesis 14:18-20).

Jesus quoted this prediction when he aligned himself with the concept of reincarnation taught by the Pharisees (Matthew 22:41-46). He asked them, whose son is the Messiah. They said, King David’s. Jesus said, then why did David call him lord (master)? If he is David’s master, how can he be his son? The Pharisees accepted this as proof that Jesus taught reincarnation.

Isaiah, who wrote a book Jesus also quotes from or refers to many times, said that God swallows death in victory (Isaiah 25:8) and that the dead will live again. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust, Isaiah wrote, for your condensation is light (Isaiah 26:19). In Deuteronomy 30:4 Moses wrote that God will gather souls from the farthest part of Heaven and return them to Earth. In Hannah’s song of thanks for the birth of Samuel she said, God kills and God makes alive, He brings to the grave and raises up (1 Samuel 2:6). Daniel wrote that many who sleep in the dust will awake – either to a good life or to condemnation (Daniel 12:2). Jesus repeated this prediction and said that those in graves would hear his voice and come again. Those who did good would reincarnate to life and those who did evil would reincarnate to damnation, he said, using the word anastasis (John 5:28-29).

Jesus also learned about the concept of reincarnation from Jeremiah where God told him, before I formed you in the womb I knew you and before your birth I sanctified you and ordained you a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:4-5). At the beginning of the story of Job (1:21) Job says, naked I came from my mother’s womb, naked I shall return thither. In the book of Wisdom Solomon says that he had received a good soul or, rather, because he was good, he had entered a good body (Wisdom 8:19-20).

God predicted before Rebecca’s twins were born that the elder would serve the younger (Genesis 25:20-26). Such a prediction only makes sense if Esau and Jacob were coming to continue patterns of behavior they began in previous lives. (Though, because we have free will, predictions like this are not set in stone. Esau, the elder brother, did not serve Jacob, nor did he forfeit his birthright, as is claimed in Genesis 25:29-34 (meaning a double portion of the financial inheritance from his parents, see Deuteronomy 21:15-17) though, apparently, Jacob did (Genesis 32:6-21, 33:1-16). As things turned out, over the centuries Hebrews intermarried with Edomites (Esau’s descendants) and the last king of Israel was a descendant of Esau.)

The prophet Malachi predicted that Elijah would come to Earth again before the “day of the Lord” (Malachi 4:5-6). At the beginning of the book of Luke an angel told the high priest, Zacharias, that his wife, who had been barren, would bear a son with the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:11-19). That child became John the Baptist. Jesus led his disciples to see that John the Baptist was Elijah, who had been foretold by Malachi (Matthew 11:7-15, 17:10-13). He said it was of John that it was written that a messenger would go before the Messiah to prepare his way. He said Elijah had already come but he wasn’t recognized, and his disciples realized Jesus was referring to John the Baptist.

Jesus’ story about workers hired at different times of the day but all paid the same was about reincarnation (Matthew 20:1-16). However often we come to Earth to learn the spiritual lessons we need to learn here the reward (eternal life with God and the end of our reincarnation cycle) is the same. Some learn their lessons after only a few lives. Some return in many lives. No matter how often we come or how long we stay the ultimate reward is the same.

Jesus told us to invite the poor to our celebrations, for we will be recompensed at the reincarnation of the just (Luke 14:12-14). He said he came from the Father and came into the world again, and that he would leave and return to the Father (John 16:28).

His disciples, who accepted his teachings about reincarnation, asked if a man born blind had sinned before his birth. In that case, Jesus said, no. He had chosen to be born blind so God’s works would be shown in him. His healing drew many people to pay attention to the Messiah God had promised and sent and through whom God was speaking and working (John 9:1-3).

Christians may wonder why reincarnation is not taught in most Christian churches today. Early church documents show that reincarnation was taught by St. Clement of Alexandria, who lived until 220 A.D., and by Origen, who died in 254. Also, when he was on trial before the Sanhedrin, the evangelist Paul said, I am a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee. Of the hope and resurrection (reincarnation) of the dead I am called into questioning (Acts 23:6-8). Again, when he was brought before the civil authorities, he said, and I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection (reincarnation) of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and therein do I exercise myself to have always a conscience void of offense toward God and toward man (Acts 24:14-16).

Constantine, who became Rome’s Emperor in 306, was the first national ruler to accept Christianity. He had the several versions of the Gospels that had survived his predecessor’s purge of Christian books, harmonized, and in the process imposed his will on church doctrine. He took sides in the debate that had developed within the church concerning Jesus’ identity, and he suppressed Jesus’ teachings concerning reincarnation, among other things. These teachings can still be found in the Gospels but they are not as prominent as they were in the early church, according to letters we have from church leaders who pre-dated Constantine.

(Another note: No one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews. There was much debate at the time of Christ about reincarnation. The author of Hebrews obviously was one of those who rejected the concept, though there were many who accepted it in Jesus' day, as he did himself.)

Now, to some of your other comments.

I did answer your first question. Jesus is the Messiah God promised and sent, and through whom God spoke and worked. Paul is inconsistent
throughout his writings. Read the book "What They Don't Tell You About Paul, a critique" for a comparison of Jesus' theology with Paul's writings. Jesus is 100% consistent in teaching a soul regenerative theology. Paul is inconsistent, contradictory and makes some dead end proclamations.
The identity of Jesus Christ has been debated for 2,000 years. The early church split over this and other issues in 1054. Wars have been fought over this issue. Many have been martyred for claiming Jesus was God. Many have been martyred for denying that Jesus is God. You and I are not going to solve this issue.

The Greek word used for resurrection (anastasis) is the same word used for reincarnation in the Old Testament and the New Testament. In addition, Jesus gave a third meaning to the word in his discussion about the woman with seven marriages. He said that those who resurrect (and return to God) do not die again but become like angels, children of the resurrection. Meaning we can end the reincarnation cycle and return to God. This was his third meaning to the word, which originally always referred to reincarnation until Jesus resurrected after being dead only three days -- then it began to mean his resurrection.

Jesus came to his theology by studying the Old Testament, living by the laws of Moses and surrendering himself to God's guidance -- all of which is shown in his teachings and lifestyle. Jesus not only lived by the laws of Moses, he also told us we should live by them.

If we can eventually achieve righteousness through our own efforts, why did Jesus Christ have to die?

 

[Right Divider]

To the ancients, reincarnation was obvious.

Hogwash!

That may be one of the dumbest posts ever on TOL.

 

[JudgeRightly]

. . .

Now, to some of your other comments.

I did answer your first question.

Why do you keep claiming you've answered a question you plainly haven't answered?

The thread is still there for everyone to read.

The question you have answered, which I did not ask, is, "Is Jesus the Messiah?".

But the question I asked is, "Is Jesus God?".

Please answer the question I asked, not the one you wanted me to ask.

Here, I'll make it easy for you, and make it multiple choice:

Is Jesus God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I don't know
D. Some other position (explain)

Jesus is the Messiah God promised and sent, and through whom God spoke and worked.

No one has asked you if Jesus is the Messiah. We all agree that He is.

Twice, and now for a third time, I've asked you directly if Jesus is God. Is there some reason you cannot answer that direct question?

Paul is inconsistent throughout his writings.

So you believe Paul taught things that were false?

Because that's what that means.

If Paul actually contradicted himself, then at least one of the contradictory statements must be false.

Which statements do you believe are false, and why?

Read the book "What They Don't Tell You About Paul, a critique" for a comparison of Jesus' theology with Paul's writings.

No. Make the argument here. I'm debating you, not the author of that book. If you believe Paul contradicts himself, identify the contradictions and demonstrate them.

Jesus is 100% consistent in teaching a soul regenerative theology.

Define "soul regenerative theology," and demonstrate from Scripture that Jesus taught it.

Paul is inconsistent, contradictory and makes some dead end proclamations.

Please specify these contradictions.

Otherwise it's just a proof-by-assertion fallacy.

The identity of Jesus Christ has been debated for 2,000 years. The early church split over this and other issues in 1054. Wars have been fought over this issue. Many have been martyred for claiming Jesus was God. Many have been martyred for denying that Jesus is God. You and I are not going to solve this issue.

I didn't ask you to settle 2,000 years of theological controversy.

I asked you what you believe.

Why are you treating a direct question about your own beliefs as though I've asked you to resolve a historical controversy?

The Greek word used for resurrection (anastasis) is the same word used for reincarnation in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

You keep asserting that resurrection and reincarnation are the same thing, but you haven't demonstrated it.
Where does anastasis mean that a person dies and is subsequently born into another earthly body?

In addition, Jesus gave a third meaning to the word in his discussion about the woman with seven marriages. He said that those who resurrect (and return to God) do not die again but become like angels, children of the resurrection. Meaning we can end the reincarnation cycle and return to God. This was his third meaning to the word, which originally always referred to reincarnation until Jesus resurrected after being dead only three days -- then it began to mean his resurrection.

Jesus wasn't describing a third meaning of resurrection. He was answering the Sadducees' question about the resurrection of the dead.

Read Luke 20:34-36. Jesus explicitly distinguishes "this age" from "that age," in which those who attain the resurrection neither marry nor die anymore.

Where does He say anything about repeated earthly lives or escaping a reincarnation cycle?

You keep reading reincarnation into a passage that doesn't mention it.

Jesus came to his theology by studying the Old Testament, living by the laws of Moses and surrendering himself to God's guidance -- all of which is shown in his teachings and lifestyle. Jesus not only lived by the laws of Moses, he also told us we should live by them.

You're still confusing what Jesus taught during His ministry with how He supposedly developed His theology during His formative years.

You can demonstrate that Jesus quoted the Old Testament. You can demonstrate that He lived according to God's law.

Neither establishes when or how He learned His theology.

What evidence does the author of "Jesus, the Formative Years" have concerning Jesus' theological development during the years Scripture tells us virtually nothing about?

Let's review the questions I've asked you, since you still haven't answered most of them directly.

The original seven questions:

1. Is Jesus Christ God, who existed before His incarnation? Please answer whether Jesus is God, not merely whether He is the Messiah.

2. What must a person do to be saved? How do you reconcile your answer with Paul's teaching about justification by faith apart from works in Romans 4?

3. What did Jesus Christ accomplish through His death, burial, and resurrection? I'm asking what His work accomplished, not merely what His resurrection demonstrated.

4. Do you believe the Bible is God's authoritative revelation, or are there other revelations with equal or greater authority? If you believe the biblical writers contradicted one another, by what standard do you determine which of them correctly understood God?

5. Where does Scripture teach reincarnation, and how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews 9:27?

6. Do you believe everyone will eventually be saved? You've answered yes, but what happens if someone continues refusing God, regardless of how often God tries to persuade them?

7. Given how little Scripture tells us about Jesus' childhood, on what basis does the author of Jesus, the Formative Years, How Jesus Developed His Theology claim to know how Jesus developed His theology?

Additional questions raised by your latest response:

8. Do you believe Paul taught things that were false? If so, identify the specific statements and explain why you believe they are false.

9. What do you mean by "soul regenerative theology," and where does Scripture teach that Jesus held such a theology?

10. What specific contradictions do you believe exist in Paul's writings? Please cite the passages and demonstrate the contradictions.

11. Where does the Greek word anastasis mean that someone dies and is subsequently born into another earthly body?

12. Where does Jesus teach that the resurrection described in Luke 20:34-36 means escaping a cycle of reincarnation?

I'm not asking whether you're entitled to your beliefs, whether scholars disagree, or whether these questions have been debated throughout history.

I'm asking what you believe and what evidence supports your claims.

Please answer the questions asked, rather than substituting different questions or referring me to books that supposedly contain the answers.