What is Faith?

henrydv

New member
This verse on faith says,
The Bible says, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
We could see the substance, but we couldn't see any evidence until We prayed and God tested our faith. As proof.
Margaret's shots were $223 every month, but now for free, and her Synthroid meds $125 every 90 days, but now for $33. Is this not evidence of faith?
I think Margaret's shots and meds are a good example of faith.
Praise the Lord for the evidence of faith.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
This verse on faith says,
The Bible says, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
We could see the substance, but we couldn't see any evidence until We prayed and God tested our faith. As proof.
Margaret's shots were $223 every month, but now for free, and her Synthroid meds $125 every 90 days, but now for $33. Is this not evidence of faith?
I think Margaret's shots and meds are a good example of faith.
Praise the Lord for the evidence of faith.
Her shots are NOT free, they're simply being paid for by someone else and probably without their direct knowledge or consent (i.e. unjust taxes). Why would your / her faith in God make one medication free but stop $33 short of free on the second? Is it not the same God dealing with the same person's faith? Was her faith $33 short of what was needed to wipe out the whole amount? And why wouldn't God have simply cured the hypothyroidism and ended the need of the medication altogether? See the problem? This sort of thing is only evidence for faith if you're viewing the "evidence" through faith tinted glasses.

The point that the author of Hebrews is making is that faith is NOT about blind belief or about belief in something without (or even contrary to) evidence, but rather faith has everything to do with substantive evidence. Faith is, in fact, one's willingness to accept the testimony of the substantive evidence before them concerning things that are hoped for but that are, as yet, unseen. Are you willing to allow the substantive evidence to persuade your mind? If so, you are demonstrating biblical faith, even more so if you're convinced to the point of taking action like those listed later in Hebrews 11.

And note that it's substantive evidence being discussed, not coincidences or contrivances. Any conspiracy theorist can call coincidences "evidence" and accept any unconfirmable / unfalsifiable testimony as "proof" of something he wants to believe in. That sort of thing isn't what Hebrews is talking about, otherwise Scientologist, Branch Davidians and all the member of the Manson Family could rightly claim to have biblical style faith.

Christianity isn't like cults or any other religion. The bible is actually true and God is actually real. Jesus Christ really is God, He really did come to Earth to die for our sins and He really did rise from the dead and, unlike any other religion in the world, there is real evidence that these things are so. We are not asked to believe blindly. We are not asked to check our brains at the door of the church and to shun sound reason and the examination of the evidence that is all around us.

As for Margret's health and your faith, the two are only related in so far as the one is a test of the other. Paul had a condition that effected his eye sight and asked God repeatedly to remove the problem but God chose not to do so because His grace is sufficient. Remember faith has to do with things UNSEEN. Miracles wipe out faith by removing our need for it. This is why you find that when people witnessed miracles in the bible, the result was almost entirely disastrous unbelief and even hatred toward God. The Jews witnessed constant, daily, undeniable physical miracles and they all died in desert in unbelief (Hebrews 3 and elsewhere). Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, therefore, He had to die! The more miracles, the less faith. That's the biblical model. Don't look for miracles. On the contrary, use your hardship as opportunity for praise because we are not of this world. We are seated in the Heavenly places in Christ, forgiven, healed and totally complete IN HIM by faith and the life we live in the flesh we live by faith in the Son of God, who loved us and gave Himself for us.

God's grace is sufficient!

Clete
 
Last edited:

henrydv

New member
Her shots are NOT free, they're simply being paid for by someone else and probably without their direct knowledge or consent (i.e. unjust taxes). Why would your / her faith in God make one medication free but stop $33 short of free on the second? Is it not the same God dealing with the same person's faith? Was her faith $33 short of what was needed to wipe out the whole amount? And why wouldn't God have simply cured the hypothyroidism and ended the need of the medication altogether? See the problem? This sort of thing is only evidence for faith if you're viewing the "evidence" through faith tinted glasses.

The point that the author of Hebrews is making is that faith is NOT about blind belief or about belief in something without (or even contrary to) evidence, but rather faith has everything to do with substantive evidence. Faith is, in fact, one's willingness to accept the testimony of the substantive evidence before them concerning things that are hoped for but that are, as yet, unseen. Are you willing to allow the substantive evidence to persuade your mind? If so, you are demonstrating biblical faith, even more so if you're convinced to the point of taking action like those listed later in Hebrews 11.

And note that it's substantive evidence being discussed, not coincidences or contrivances. Any conspiracy theorist can call coincidences "evidence" and accept any unconfirmable / unfalsifiable testimony as "proof" of something he wants to believe in. That sort of thing isn't what Hebrews is talking about, otherwise Scientologist, Branch Davidians and all the member of the Manson Family could rightly claim to have biblical style faith.

Christianity isn't like cults or any other religion. The bible is actually true and God is actually real. Jesus Christ really is God, He really did come to Earth to die for our sins and He really did rise from the dead and, unlike any other religion in the world, there is real evidence that these things are so. We are not asked to believe blindly. We are not asked to check our brains at the door of the church and to shun sound reason and the examination of the evidence that is all around us.

As for Margret's health and your faith, the two are only related in so far as the one is a test of the other. Paul had a condition that effected his eye sight and asked God repeatedly to remove the problem but God chose not to do so because His grace is sufficient. Remember faith has to do with things UNSEEN. Miracles wipe out faith by removing our need for it. This is why you find that when people witnessed miracles in the bible, the result was almost entirely disastrous unbelief and even hatred toward God. The Jews witnessed constant, daily, undeniable physical miracles and they all died in desert in unbelief (Hebrews 3 and elsewhere). Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, therefore, He had to die! The more miracles, the less faith. That's the biblical model. Don't look for miracles. On the contrary, use your hardship as opportunity for praise because we are not of this world. We are seated in the Heavenly places in Christ, forgiven, healed and totally complete IN HIM by faith and the life we live in the flesh we live by faith in the Son of God, who loved us and gave Himself for us.

God's grace is sufficient!

Clete
Why would your/her faith in God make one medication-free but stop $33 short of free on the second? Is it not the same God dealing with the same person's faith? Does that mean that God is unfair?
Who am I to say that God is unjust because He did not give us both medications for free. God can deal any way He wills.
We did not expect to get our medication for free. That was God's blessing.
We didn't have $346 a month to spend on her medication. Everything would have to go on a credit card.
We are on a fixed income. We prayed that God would help her get a lower price on her medication. God is solvent. The Bible says,
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:3,4-36
I am not going to question God as to why God can do what He wills. Our lives are in God's hands. God did not have to do anything for us.
You asked.
Was her faith $33 short of what was needed to wipe out the whole amount? God could wipe out the $33 if He wanted to.
God is solvent. It was not His will to wipe out the whole amount or cured the hypothyroidism and ended the need for the medication altogether. I see the problem? God has the answer.
You said.
This sort of thing is only evidence for faith if you're viewing the "evidence" through faith-tinted glasses.
There are no tinted glasses when we see things God way. God's way is always right. I am a born-again Christian and love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I believe in the God of the Bible, and He is the only true God.
I am living proof by faith that God is working in me.
In the third grade, I was told by my school teacher, "I will learn anything and never make any of my life." I could not read-write or spell. Why didn't God help me in school? I never learn to read, write and spell until I was almost 13.
That doesn't mean that God didn't have the power to do it. I prayed for it. I have the faith to believe He could.
I believed in the Bible, and there is one God, and this one God is all-powerful.
In 1963 God came into my life and saved me. I search the Scriptures and study them. I know what faith is. My life is full of evidence of what faith is. In 1993 I graduated from College. I am the author of 7 books. All this is because I believe that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
You can tell me I do not understand the Bible.
You can tell me I am wrong, but my life tells me I am right.
 
Last edited:

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
This verse on faith says,
The Bible says, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
We could see the substance, but we couldn't see any evidence until We prayed and God tested our faith. As proof.
Margaret's shots were $223 every month, but now for free, and her Synthroid meds $125 every 90 days, but now for $33. Is this not evidence of faith?
I think Margaret's shots and meds are a good example of faith.
Praise the Lord for the evidence of faith.
I have faith that you are not lying.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Does that mean that God is unfair?
Who am I to say that God is unjust because He did not give us both medications for free. God can deal any way He wills.
That wasn't the point and I suspect you knew that. The point wasn't that it was unfair (it would have been) the point is that it doesn't make any sense. It's a contrivance at best. And it is this exact ability of yours to rationalize it that proves it was not any sort of divine intervention on your behalf.

Incidentally, your response here directly implies that God acts arbitrarily. Was that your intent?

We did not expect to get our medication for free. That was God's blessing.
I do not deny that it was a blessing to you, what I deny is that it had anything to do with God's direct intervention as a direct result of your faith. In fact, I know for certain that such is not the case. All good things come from God and so it is good to praise Him when good things happen to us but what you're talking about is no different than superstitious belief in magic.

We didn't have $346 a month to spend on her medication. Everything would have to go on a credit card.
We are on a fixed income. We prayed that God would help her get a lower price on her medication. God is solvent. The Bible says,
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:3,4-36
I am not going to question God as to why God can do what He wills. Our lives are in God's hands. God did not have to do anything for us.
You asked.
Was her faith $33 short of what was needed to wipe out the whole amount? God could wipe out the $33 if He wanted to.
God is solvent. It was not His will to wipe out the whole amount or cured the hypothyroidism and ended the need for the medication altogether. I see the problem? God has the answer.
So what's the answer then?

You're talking gibberish. "God is solvent"! That's your answer?! Really?

In what universe does such a comment make any sense whatsoever? God is not rich! He is the Creator of wealth itself. He does not make decisions based on whether He can afford it or whether it even makes financial sense for you.

The $33 a month you're still paying is proof that God didn't have a thing to do with it (directly). Show me the passage where God's intervention was anything short of complete. Show me the biblical precedent depicting God leaving someone on the hook for 9.5% of the debt that He helped them pay. It doesn't exist because that's not how God works.

You said.
This sort of thing is only evidence for faith if you're viewing the "evidence" through faith-tinted glasses.
There are no tinted glasses when we see things God way. God's way is always right. I am a born-again Christian and love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I believe in the God of the Bible, and He is the only true God.
I never suggested otherwise. You retort here has nothing to do with what I said and yes, you do have very darkly faith-tinted glasses on if you think this 90% "miracle" is from God rather than man. In all likelihood, it has to do with you benefiting from governing officials stealing money by means of the tax code from those who produced it so as to give it to people like yourself by way of government medical care so as to make as many people as possible dependant on them rather than God.

Again, that isn't to say that it can't be counted as a blessing. It clearly can be (attitude is everything) and indeed, I'm happy for your good fortune but as Christians we believe in truth not blind belief and superstition.

I am living proof by faith that God is working in me.
As are we all. How would your understanding of the evidence of faith account for the millions of Christian people who don't get the blessing you got?

In the third grade, I was told by my school teacher, "I will learn anything and never make any of my life." I could not read-write or spell. Why didn't God help me in school? I never learn to read, write and spell until I was almost 13.
That doesn't mean that God didn't have the power to do it. I prayed for it. I have the faith to believe He could.
I believed in the Bible, and there is one God, and this one God is all-powerful.
Again, this has nothing to do with anything I've said and doesn't refute a syllable of it.

In 1963 God came into my life and saved me.
And that is the singular miracle that you have experienced in your life.

I search the Scriptures and study them. I know what faith is. My life is full of evidence of what faith is. In 1993 I graduated from College. I am the author of 7 books. All this is because I believe that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
It's because God enabled you to work hard and to overcome the obstacles between you and your goals, not because of direct, super-natural, miraculous, divine intervention. So long as the goals we have in our lives are righteous, God can and often does work through, around and even in spite of those people and things that get in the way but He does not guarantee the He will do so. The proof of that is manifold throughout the New Testament. Many faithful believers not only sick or injured but violently beaten, enslaved, starved, whipped, exiled, murdered, stoned, hanged and even crucified. My bet is that they all prayed pretty hard for their affliction to be lifted.
God's answer was "My grace is sufficient." (II Corinthians 12:9).

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
You can tell me I do not understand the Bible.
You can tell me I am wrong, but my life tells me I am right.
Experience is NOT the test of truth, God's Word (Logos) is.

If what you believe is unbiblical or irrational (often the same thing) then what you believe is false - period.

Look, I have no desire to make an enemy of you. What I've said has been dispassionate and biblical and you've somehow taken it to mean that I think you're some sort of unbeliever or a fool. Nothing could be further from the truth but that isn't relevant. This website is supposed to be intended to provide a place for people discuss various issues on which they disagree. Some issues are worth fighting over because they cast God as unjust or in some other way insult the righteous character of God. This is not one of those issues and since you clearly didn't bring it up to discuss it with someone who disagrees but instead are simply trying to disseminate your own beliefs, I'll leave you to do so.

Clete
 

henrydv

New member
Hi, Clete
You say "Miracles wipe out faith by removing our need for it."

The Bible has a lot to say about faith. You said, "Miracles wipe out faith."
Nothing is arbitrary with God. I think arbitrariness on God's part would either mean he was deistic, not omniscient, or not sovereign. But God is intimately involved in the tiniest details of creation, knows all things, and is mighty enough to do whatever he wills.
If miracles wipe out faith, then God wipes out Himself. God has ceased. God is the source of faith and miracles. Can God die? If miracles wipe out faith? God is dead. God is the source of faith and miracles. Can God wipe out Himself?
When God the Holy Spirit speaks through the Word of God, God gives us the faith to believe in Jesus Christ. Can you stop God from speaking? You can't believe in God without faith.
The Bible says. "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17
It is impossible to please God without faith.
I do not live by blind faith.
I cannot see God, but I believe by faith that God is?
I have never seen the end of the universe, but I believe God is there?
I cannot see the tiniest cell in my body.
Am I blind because I believe in one God who I cannot see?
Is there no life after death?
I have never seen life after death. I believe in a place that I have never seen? I am blind to the things of this world that I might see the things of God.
But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Hi, Clete
You say "Miracles wipe out faith by removing our need for it."

The Bible has a lot to say about faith. You said, "Miracles wipe out faith."
Nothing is arbitrary with God. I think arbitrariness on God's part would either mean he was deistic, not omniscient, or not sovereign. But God is intimately involved in the tiniest details of creation, knows all things, and is mighty enough to do whatever he wills.
If miracles wipe out faith, then God wipes out Himself. God has ceased. God is the source of faith and miracles. Can God die? If miracles wipe out faith? God is dead. God is the source of faith and miracles. Can God wipe out Himself?
When God the Holy Spirit speaks through the Word of God, God gives us the faith to believe in Jesus Christ. Can you stop God from speaking? You can't believe in God without faith.
The Bible says. "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17
It is impossible to please God without faith.
I do not live by blind faith.
I cannot see God, but I believe by faith that God is?
I have never seen the end of the universe, but I believe God is there?
I cannot see the tiniest cell in my body.
Am I blind because I believe in one God who I cannot see?
Is there no life after death?
I have never seen life after death. I believe in a place that I have never seen? I am blind to the things of this world that I might see the things of God.
But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths here.

Nothing you said here has anything to do with the point I was making.

The point was that biblically speaking, the normal reaction that people have to being witness to a miracle is NOT faith in God but quite the reverse. The more obvious the miracle, the worse the typical reaction. When time allows, I'll make a more detailed post that will demonstrate what I'm talking about.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
An excellent gift from GOD through an increase of faith.

A word study of Heb 11:1 is also enlightening, especially the nuances of the word the KJV chose to render as evidence which is acceptable but a bit of English archaic in this instance. Biblehub and Strong's Concordance are very useful.
 

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
A miracle kept me from dying in my sleep from alcoholism. I certainly have faith today.
Do you mean trust or belief, or plain faith? Because belief and faith are poor words to translate word πίστις. In God, we trust, eh. The trust of the Messiah meaning that he trusted God, as we should all do.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
Do you mean trust or belief, or plain faith? Because belief and faith are poor words to translate word πίστις. In God, we trust, eh. The trust of the Messiah meaning that he trusted God, as we should all do.
Pistis includes all of that.


faith
πίστις (pistis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
 

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
Pistis includes all of that.


faith
πίστις (pistis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
Faith in English means fidelity though. So I like the definition of trust the best, because I contend πίστις never means fidelity.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. KJV
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Faith in English means fidelity though. So I like the definition of trust the best, because I contend πίστις never means fidelity.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. KJV
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Hi, Clete
You say "Miracles wipe out faith by removing our need for it."

The Bible has a lot to say about faith. You said, "Miracles wipe out faith."
Nothing is arbitrary with God. I think arbitrariness on God's part would either mean he was deistic, not omniscient, or not sovereign. But God is intimately involved in the tiniest details of creation, knows all things, and is mighty enough to do whatever he wills.
If miracles wipe out faith, then God wipes out Himself. God has ceased. God is the source of faith and miracles. Can God die? If miracles wipe out faith? God is dead. God is the source of faith and miracles. Can God wipe out Himself?
When God the Holy Spirit speaks through the Word of God, God gives us the faith to believe in Jesus Christ. Can you stop God from speaking? You can't believe in God without faith.
The Bible says. "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17
It is impossible to please God without faith.
I do not live by blind faith.
I cannot see God, but I believe by faith that God is?
I have never seen the end of the universe, but I believe God is there?
I cannot see the tiniest cell in my body.
Am I blind because I believe in one God who I cannot see?
Is there no life after death?
I have never seen life after death. I believe in a place that I have never seen? I am blind to the things of this world that I might see the things of God.
But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Okay, so as I said before, none of this has a thing to do with any point I've made so I wanted to post something of more detail so as to clarify the point. Note that what follows is not opinion. It is not what I BELIEVE is true, it is THE truth as it is nothing at all but a report of the biblical material...

There are 340 miracles recorded in the bible. I have an exhaustive list of all 340 of them and the faith, or lack thereof that resulted. I am not going to list all 340 because that would take far too much time, it would run afoul of copy rights and you wouldn't read it anyway. I will however list a dozen or so from various portions of the bible so that you get a taste for what I'm talking about here....

All animals came to Noah's Ark (Gen. 6:20)None of Noah's neighbors repent (I Peter 3:20; II Peter 2:5)
Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed (Gen. 19:12)Lot's wife looks back (19:26)
Ten Plagues of Egypt (Genesis 8-12)Pharaoh hardened his heart each time, briefly relenting only after the 10th plague (Exodus 12:31; 14:9)
Egyptian Army drowned (Exodus 14:26)"The people believed" ( Exodus 16:2)
for a whopping three days (Exodus 15:22-24; 16:3, 28)
Balaam's donkey rebukes him (Number 22:28)Balaam threatens to kill it (Numbers 22:29)
Balaam gets killed (Numbers 31:8)
Elisha heals Jericho's water (II Kings 2:20-22)42 youths mock Elisha (II Kings 2:23-24)
Jesus heals man with withered hand (Matthew 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10)Witnesses had hard hearts (Mark 3:5)
Herodians plot to kill Jesus (Mark 3:6)
Pharisees plot to kill Jesus (Matthew 12:14)
Jesus healed ten lepers (Luke 17:14)Nine of the ten give no thanks (Luke 17:17)
Paul does miracles in Iconium (Acts 14:3)Iconium rules to to kill Paul (Acts 14:5)
Paul casts demon out of slave (Acts 16:18)Paul beaten and imprisoned (Acts 16:19-24)

Now, that is only a taste. If you count the plagues separately that's only 19 miracles out of 340 and while the reaction isn't negative to all 340 miracles, the exceptions are few and far between. The overwhelming testimony of the scriptures is that people who experience or even witness a miracle tend to hate God as a result.

There is good reason for this, by the way. I strongly recommend that you read the following article on the subject....

Miracles and Unbelief (i.e., they tend to PRODUCE unbelief)

 

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
14:1 Μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία· πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε
 
Top