What is faith?

[daqq]

Elder pipe says:
Abraham was declared righteous 15 years prior to him being circumcised.

James says that scripture "declaration", (Genesis 15:6) was not fulfilled until father Abraham offered up Isaac his son, which was many years later, in Genesis 22:10. Re: Pg.1 - Post#3

 

[God's Truth]

Elder pipe says:
Abraham was declared righteous 15 years prior to him being circumcised.
Oops wrong thread...faith=trust

Which proves the works that do not save anymore are circumcision, and the other ceremonial works.

 

[glorydaz]

James says that scripture "declaration", (Genesis 15:6) was not fulfilled until father Abraham offered up Isaac his son, which was many years later, in Genesis 22:10. Re: Pg.1 - Post#3

Fulfilled? Where does James say that?

 

[glorydaz]

Which proves the works that do not save anymore are circumcision, and the other ceremonial works.

Which proves you still don't listen.

 

[God's Truth]

Fulfilled? Where does James say that?

Abraham's faith was tested.

Oh how I love the Word of God!

 

[God's Truth]

Which proves you still don't listen.

Tell us how Abraham's faith was tested.

 

[glorydaz]

Tell us how Abraham's faith was tested.

What does that have to do with anything? You doubt the Lord can see into the hearts of men?

 

[God's Truth]

What does that have to do with anything? You doubt the Lord can see into the hearts of men?

Why did God test Abraham, and how did God test Abraham?

This is too great.

Are you going to answer or keep trying to get out of it?

 

[daqq]

Fulfilled? Where does James say that?

Sorry for your luck but I have already received a previous infraction for "quoting myself", (even though that time was also because the post was likewise full of scripture) so I have no plans to be posting it all over again here in this thread seeing how I already provided the link to Pg1, (of this thread) and you just quoted it.

 

[Angel4Truth]

We usually speak of faith as a belief e.g. Christian faith.

But looking at Heb 11:1 it says...

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In mathematical terms faith = substance = evidence

It does not say faith is what you hope for or something unseen.
The word "faith" itself is an abstract noun like "freedom, love, power, and redemption" meaning something theoretical and abstract.

To this add James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And one gets faith = substance = evidence = works.

Look at every example of faith in Heb 11 and it is always accompanied by an action, or a work. Even God's faith in verse 3 has a work (creating the earth).

So we can hope for something and believe in something, but if it has no substance, no evidence, no work, no action - then is it true Biblical faith?

Paul seems at times to criticise works based faith.
But he holds up Abraham as our father in the faith.
Yet, Abraham's believed God, and showed it by works.

Probably James is the most insistent that faith without works is dead.
So insistent is he that he says it 7 times in one Chapter viz. James Chapter 2.

My question then is this. Can faith be a belief system only? Does it have to be accompanied by action or substance or evidence?

The first and primary meaning of the word faith, is complete trust.

You either have complete trust in God, or you dont.

 

[glorydaz]

Sorry for your luck but I have already received a previous infraction for "quoting myself", (even though that time was also because the post was likewise full of scripture) so I have no plans to be posting it all over again here in this thread seeing how I already provided the link to Pg1, (of this thread) and you just quoted it.

I don't consider it "luck", but I will take it as not worth wasting time on.

 

[iouae]

James says that scripture "declaration", (Genesis 15:6) was not fulfilled until father Abraham offered up Isaac his son, which was many years later, in Genesis 22:10. Re: Pg.1 - Post#3

I had not noticed this before.
I did not know there was a specific act which Ab performed which was THE act to fulfil...

Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (Jas 2:23).

You are right that James does say that offering his son fulfilled Abrahams believing in God.

Yet Genesis 15 says that Ab believed God that his seed would be as the stars of heaven , and that THIS act fulfilled his believing in God (Gen 15:4-6).

Here we have an "apparent" contradiction of scripture.

I can only think that James took ALL of Ab's acts of faith from believing God regarding his yet-to-be-seed, to Ab's act of offering up his seed and concatenated them all together as FULFILLING his acts of faith. Fulfil = fill to the full, complete.

James 2
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[daqq]

I don't consider it "luck", but I will take it as not worth wasting time on.

Seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all those things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof.

I had not noticed this before.
I did not know there was a specific act which Ab performed which was THE act to fulfil...

Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (Jas 2:23).

You are right that James does say that offering his son fulfilled Abrahams believing in God.

Yet Genesis 15 says that Ab believed God that his seed would be as the stars of heaven , and that THIS act fulfilled his believing in God (Gen 15:4-6).

Here we have an "apparent" contradiction of scripture.

I can only think that James took ALL of Ab's acts of faith from believing God regarding his yet-to-be-seed, to Ab's act of offering up his seed and concatenated them all together as FULFILLING his acts of faith. Fulfil = fill to the full, complete.

James 2
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Seeing that you are at least willing to admit what you see when you see it I would say that there is more hope today than there was yesterday, (from my perspective).

 

[God's Truth]

I had not noticed this before.
I did not know there was a specific act which Ab performed which was THE act to fulfil...

Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (Jas 2:23).

You are right that James does say that offering his son fulfilled Abrahams believing in God.

It is NOT just James who says God tested Abraham, it is said in Genesis 22.

Abraham Tested
22 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

Yet Genesis 15 says that Ab believed God that his seed would be as the stars of heaven , and that THIS act fulfilled his believing in God (Gen 15:4-6).

God said BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED!

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Here we have an "apparent" contradiction of scripture.

There is NO contradiction.

People misunderstand Paul about no works. The works we do not have to do are the ceremonial works.

Just read what the work is that Abraham was saved before---it was CIRCUMCISION.

Paul never ever tells anyone we are saved by faith and no obedience.

 

[aikido7]

James says that scripture "declaration", (Genesis 15:6) was not fulfilled until father Abraham offered up Isaac his son, which was many years later, in Genesis 22:10. Re: Pg.1 - Post#3

According to historians, the word “faith” as Jesus used it, means “trust.”

Not belief or dogma.

TRUST.

 

[iouae]

It is NOT just James who says God tested Abraham, it is said in Genesis 22.

Abraham Tested
22 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”


God said BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED!

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."



There is NO contradiction.

People misunderstand Paul about no works. The works we do not have to do are the ceremonial works.

Just read what the work is that Abraham was saved before---it was CIRCUMCISION.

Paul never ever tells anyone we are saved by faith and no obedience.

I really appreciate all the perspectives brought to this topic.

Again, I had not noticed how the first part of Abrahams believing God and having it accredited for righteousness did not really involve obedience (Gen 15), but when that believing God and having it accredited for righteousness was FILLED TO THE FULL it involved a huge test of obedience.

I am sure there is a pattern here for the Christian walk. As our faith grows over time God may test it with greater demands on our obedience.

And I agree with you that circumcision was not for Gentile Christians. And Gentile Christians had no need of ceremonial OT laws relating to the temple and sacrifice, since they lived in Corinth or Rome.

 

[daqq]

According to historians, the word “faith” as Jesus used it, means “trust.”

Not belief or dogma.

TRUST.

:thumb: Absolutely ~ faithfully-trusting (into-towards) . . .

 

[God's Truth]

I really appreciate all the perspectives brought to this topic.

Again, I had not noticed how the first part of Abrahams believing God and having it accredited for righteousness did not really involve obedience (Gen 15),

It did involve obedience. God told Abraham where to go, and he went.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Genesis 12:4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Harran.

but when that believing God and having it accredited for righteousness was FILLED TO THE FULL it involved a huge test of obedience.

Believing alone is nothing, it is dead. Believing must be accompanied with right action.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Faith alone is dead. See James 2:14, 17, and 20.

I am sure there is a pattern here for the Christian walk. As our faith grows over time God may test it with greater demands on our obedience.

Right, but a person will not be saved in the first place until they believe and obey God. See Acts 5:32, and John 14:23, and many more.

And I agree with you that circumcision was not for Gentile Christians. And Gentile Christians had no need of ceremonial OT laws relating to the temple and sacrifice, since they lived in Corinth or Rome.

It does not matter about Gentiles. The Truth is for everyone.

Gentiles could have obeyed the old law and would have had a relationship with God.

The people, all people who wanted to be near God's Spirit had to do certain works, certain works just to make themselves clean.

The works were ceremonial works. A person could not go to the tent, and later the temples to worship God, where His Spirit was, not until they made themselves clean.

No one has to clean themselves anymore by doing various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals. They no longer have to make themselves clean by adhering to a dietary law, and getting circumcised, and observing special days... We only are made clean now by faith that Jesus' blood makes us clean, after repenting of our sins.

We have to obey to get saved, and to stay saved.

 

[God's Truth]

According to historians, the word “faith” as Jesus used it, means “trust.”

Not belief or dogma.

TRUST.

Belief and trust are the same thing.

We have to believe, trust, and obey.

 

[iouae]

It did involve obedience. God told Abraham where to go, and he went./QUOTE]

Would you agree that Abraham is the poster-child of a New Testament believer? We copy him. We believe God and it is imputed to us for righteousness under the New Covenant.

His tests were unique for him. Our obedience will be tested in ways unique for us.

And God was with him as He is with us. Nobody can walk that closely with God (safely) without faith. The Israelites found out how unsafe it was to walk out of Egypt with God, while they lacked faith.