Howdy Mr Deets:
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
Some confuse the doctrine of being "crucified with Christ" with being born again/initial salvation.
Mr Deets:
How many salvations or stages to salvation are there?
Salvation is one event...as I have said...not two...or three, or four, or etc...there are stages of maturity within it, however, and this is what I am speaking of.
We are born again as a babe, and we grow in grace and in knowledge, agree?
Peter said, grow in what?
2 Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before,
beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18
But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Paul said the same...there is one spirit; and it speaks truth.
Paul said, 'put on the fulness of the stature of Christ', I already gave that verse in another post, so go read of it...we are not mature in knowledge upon initial salvation, and we can only have assurance once we are a mature man.
I said:
Quote:
I believe it is what occurs once you have made your calling and election SURE. In other words, once you have had your faith tested, and, you can no longer be tossed to or fro with every wind of doctrine.
Mr Deets:
What if I feel that I'm sure, but then I stumble? Or if I'm sure, but then I realize I'm not? Does that mean I haven't been crucified with Him?
No, once you are mature; you can never again stumble...so if you are still unsure, you are not yet mature; but you are saved, and so the commandment would be, to continue to grow in grace and knowledge unto the mature man.
I said:
Quote:
I would like to discuss this...issue.
Anyone up for it?
I said:
Quote:
My main focus is on that all who are saved are born again, but not all who are born again, have learned the WILL of God, or purpose of God, for their salvation.
Mr Deets:
Okay, but that has nothing to do with being crucified with Him.
Yes it does, if you understand it correctly, in mho...the teaching of it defines the mature man.
The man who has learned to be able to discern good and evil.
Only when one surrenders his full will to God, can a man be complete. WE do not do this upon initial salvation, for we must have the HOLY SPIRIT IN ORDER TO GET IT DONE.
THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT AS A FACT.
Example:
The carnal man cannot hear the law of God, so how in the world would or could anyone carnal begin to obey Him?
His law is faith working by love, not the law of moses, btw..so, lets not get side tracked into that wrong understanding too.
Quote:
In order to never fall, you must be crucified with Christ.
Quote:
That means, you must learn and grow in grace and in knowledge, until you KNOW and can discern good and evil.
Mr Deets:
So, we have to work for it?
No, we have to submit...that is not a work, persay....is it? We submit via our own freewill, He did not save us and remove it, nor did He say we did not have before salvation. We have always had the ability to submit to Him...even in the carnal state...otherwise, none of us would ever be saved. Submitting and hearing or grasping 'truth' is not the same thing. Faith is about submitting to what you do not yet KNOW OR UNDERSTAND...IT IS TAKING THE INITIAL STEP, WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS TRUE. We must define the word by how God does...hope in things UNSEEN..so, we are saved initially, without assurance...period, and, then we grow to that assurance, and this is what the bible teaches....
Quote:
It is at this point that you have died to the law. You cannot immediately die to the law, upon initial salvation, because it takes having the holy spirit in order to get it done.
Mr Deets:
Romans 8:1-2. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." (Emphasis mine)
Do you see the part that says, 'who do not walk according to the flesh'? If so, you must begin to see that it is conditional upon how you walk...if you choose to walk in the flesh, you are choosing to not SUBMIT TO THE SPIRIT..AND, THE SPIRIT CAN BE QUENCHED BY DOING THIS.
He gave us the Holy Spirit so that we could CHOOSE to submit to Him...and, His will.
Mr Deets:
Again, I have to work for it? I must grow in grace and knowledge before I am in Him, which is when I am dead to the law? There sure are lots of conditions to salvation...
No, you grow in grace and in knowledge AFTER you are in Him, and with the power of the Holy Spirit, you have the choice to submit to Him...did you read my post?
I said:
Quote:
We are saved/justified, without the law,(born again), and, then we must die to the law/be crucified with Jesus.
Mr Deets:
I didn't realize it was a 2 part or three part deal. Revelation 3:20. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."
It is conditional ONLY after you are saved..for He gives you the POWER, through the Holy Spirit to submit to His will. You did not have that power, while you were yet carnal...which is why salvation is a FREE gift, to begin with.....but, IF you choose of your own freewill, AFTERwards and quench the Holy SPIRIT, BECAUSE THAT IS THE POWER THAT ENABLES YOU TO DO HIS WILL, THEN YOU CAN BE LED BACK TO UNBELIEF, OF YOUR OWN FREEWILL.
He saved you to be a LIGHT; THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR SALVATION, AND YOU HAVE THE FREEWILL TO PUT THAT LIGHT UNDER A BASKET AND SNUFF IT OUT.
I said:
Quote:
Is anyone on this board with me?
Mr Deets:
Not me. If we must earn it, or work for it, then we are hopeless.
As I have said, you do not earn it, but you must SUBMIT to it; or you are quenching out the FREE gift that He did give you freely.
You are not a robot, you have freewill, and you get to CHOOSE to do HIS will, or go backwards...remember Lot's wife....remember the dog that returned to his own vomit....God has never forced His will on anyone, and it is a false gospel to say or claim He does.
He wants YOU to choose to love Him back, and to CHOOSE to accept and submit to His will....this is the other part of why you WERE freely saved.
You could not do that, without the HOLY spirit; and now that you have it, it is UNBELIEF TO DENY THE POWER OF GOD, THAT HE GAVE YOU FREELY.
'There is no one righteous, there is no one good but God, there is no one who does good, etc...'
Yes, under the law of moses; as the carnal man...God gives YOU the HOLY SPIRIT to give YOU the POWER to choose to do good; stop denying the facts:
Gal 6:9 And let us not
be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity,
let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
You deny the power of God, via the Holy Spirit if you do not agree with Paul, who taught the not only how we are saved by a free gift, but the responsibility that would come alongside IT, due to the fact that God gave you the power to do good.
Unto him who knows to do good and does it not, it is SIN; and it is sin of unbeleif:
Jesus:
Luk 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing;
Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy [it]?
It was the pharasee that denied it was illegal to do good. We must rightly define the law of Christ/faith working by love from the law of moses, that no one could do good under.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear,
Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Paul:
1 Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches,
but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
1Ti 6:18 That they
do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves
a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that
knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.
Hbr 13:16 But
to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
If I were you, I would ask yourself why you believe a lie?
