Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why?
Theology Club: What if God needed Adam to fall early on?
- Thread starter Derf
- Start date
Why?
Derf
Well-known member
I'm postulating here, just remember.
I think it was important so that all of the people on the whole earth would be covered by Jesus' sacrifice. Let's say that Adam and Eve bore Cain prior to their own sin. Cain would then not die because of Adam's sin, but he might sin of his own accord. I know you have your own opinion about what the original sin did, but you must admit that it did something that caused a lot of problems for the whole of creation (and I'll limit it to the physical creation for this discussion). But that whole of creation was under Adam's dominion, and the whole of creation was inferior to Adam--Adam (and Eve, of course) were made in God's image, while the rest of creation was not.
If then Cain was born before the big sin, and he also sinned, then would Jesus have only been able to die for the one from whose line He came?
There are some holes in my story that I don't know how to fill. Like, what about Eve? She was made from Adam's rib prior to their sin. Maybe it was important that both sin in essentially the same act.
And if Cain married a daughter of Adam, then all their children might be subject to death, similar to Adam's descendants, but that would suggest that Jesus was subject to death for the same reason, which I don't think is the case.
At the very least, it seems like Cain would be under the curse for Adam's sin in the same way that the animals are, yet if he was as much made in God's image as Adam, then it doesn't seem to equal out.
Part of the reason I question this episode's meaning is that the sin seems so simple. Almost like God wanted them to sin, and quickly. Yet if God is not the author of sin, He wouldn't have forced them to.
I know you don't agree with some of my premises, but put that aside, if you can, and see if you can help me think through this with my assumptions intact.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If Adam would have remained in a state of innocence and therefore remained sinless then he could have continued to eat of the Tree of Life and live for ever.
Then what need would he have had for the Lord Jesus dying on the cross? Was Christ's sacrifice for men's sins not necessary until a man became guilty of sinning?
What do you think?
Derf
Well-known member
I don't see the point of Christ's sacrifice for a sinless man that was not going to die. Christ died to save the ungodly....from death.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, I agree. So I do not think that it was necessary "that all of the people on the whole earth would be covered by Jesus' sacrifice," as you said earlier.
Derf
Well-known member
But, if there's a possibility of sin for those that were born to Adam before he sinned, then Jesus' death becomes a necessity for them, but maybe it doesn't apply to them in the same way.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but not until they sin.
Derf
Well-known member
But then what? God's ONLY begotten son was already slated to redeem Adam's children, who were condemned to death because of Adam's sin.
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A belief in the historical existence of Messiah and the doctrine of salvation is not salvation. Even if you should shout it from the roof tops every day, it is not salvation. Regeneration or the new birth is the start of salvation and without the experience of being taken out of darkness into light, from death to life and the clarity that repentance provides a man has a form of religion, but denies the power of the evangelism.
Derf
Well-known member
I thought you said regeneration was the key to understanding. Now you are saying repentance is the key that brings clarity. Which is it?
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Regeneration and repentance are simultaneous. Both are graces that renew the mind/intellect.It has to be experienced to be understood. "Understanding", that is of the mind as well.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
To what "death" are you making reference?
Derf
Well-known member
Ok, then if regeneration and repentance are simultaneous, does belief precede or follow? It sounds like the mind must be renewed first, before one can believe, correct? Isn't repentance the same? If we truly repent, we must have a change of minds about God and His commands. Thus it seems like you are really saying that repentance AND belief must FOLLOW regeneration, despite your words?
But Paul seems to think otherwise. In Rom 12:1-2, he says to "Brothers" (which must mean fellow believers, yes?), that they need to be transformed by the renewing of their minds. Thus, the renewing has not happened yet, but they are already brothers. "...but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern ..."
You have to experience eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to understand it? I guess that makes sense, but seems like a no-brainer--what's your point about it?
Derf
Well-known member
Let's just say, for discussion's sake, the death that Christ came to reverse/defeat with His death on the cross.
You wander in the dark pretending you can see. I'll not be giving that which is holy...
Derf
Well-known member
To dogs? I'm asking you questions about your faith. Are you not willing to give an answer for the hope that lies within you? Or not able to?
And you have to think for just a second. If the faith of a Christian is only understood by the regenerate, then you have to wonder if YOU really understand it, don't you think?? And maybe you're not a Christian, but only think you are, because maybe you're not really regenerated.
If that doesn't hit you like a ton of bricks, put yourself in my supposed shoes for just a minute. I accepted Christ when I was young, believing that His blood was powerful enough to save me from death and hell. I continue to believe in Him today. Yet I've been deceived all these years and continue to be deceived today, because there's some kind of secret initiation that God gives to those He deems worthy.
Secret initiations are tough on everyone, because even if you think you're in the know, maybe you're not--maybe you just THINK you understand, but only the next level up of understanding is good enough to get into the secret club.
Please consider that maybe, just maybe, God really wants people to know about Him and believe in Him, and He provided the "good news" to us in such a way that we don't have to be a member of a special club to receive and process and understand and accept the "good news". If not, then the good news is only good for those people who don't need it. Like you, I suppose. For the rest of us, who aren't allowed in, it's pretty bad news, I'm afraid. News fit for dogs, yes???
Derf
Well-known member
You haven't? Would you like to know about how you can be saved?
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. You don't even have to wait for someone to tell you you've been regenerated (or not)!
Whereas from what I'm hearing from you, your evangelism says--don't bother believing, because if you believe without regeneration, your belief isn't effective. And belief with regeneration is an unknown process by which you really don't know if it has happened or not--you just assume it has to you and assume it hasn't to everyone you don't agree with.
Be careful: you might be one of those individuals who THINKS they are saved, only to fall away at the end of your life, because God really doesn't love you enough to want you to live forever.
Whose concept of evangelism is warped?
[1Co 15:1-4 KJV] 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
But still...what does this have to do with the topic. If we can only have meaningful conversations if you, the keeper of the keys of heaven apparently, allow me to be considered regenerate, then I appreciate the time you've wasted on me so far, and I hope you enjoy the meaningless content in this forum.
If, however, there's a possibility that some of our conversation might still be somewhat intelligible, I urge you to continue with me in it. It's up to you (or up to God who ordained this conversation to be perfectly meaningless from all eternity, but also ordained that you be stuck in it, perhaps).