nikolai_42
Well-known member
Does God judge choices or people?
What God judges
- Thread starter nikolai_42
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nikolai_42
Well-known member
The intent of the post is not simply to have people mine the scriptures for verses that say God judges the heart or God judged this person or that person - but to see what it is that is really at issue in the judgment of God.
So is there further implication in the judgment of someone's choice to do X? In other words if someone is judged for murder (for example) is their choice to kill being judged or is that really reflective of something deeper (and, therefore, it isn't - in the end - the choice itself being judged)?
theophilus
Well-known member
Both...our deeds AND the intent of our hearts.
Neither, All authority has been given to King Jesus.
That would be the majority of humanity past and present.
It should be evident that people will be judged by their works after the "Books" are opened to them.
The "Books" have not been opened to most people.
Narrow is the path to life and few go by it. Broad is destruction and many go by it. Paraphrasing of course.....
musterion
Well-known member
1 Tim 5:24
What did you have in mind for "something deeper"?
A person must die before he or she can be judged. You know that.
That's true in this age but fortunately this is not the only age.
musterion
Well-known member
popsthebuilder
New member
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Jesus said that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (and vice-versa). So is the judgment of an action (murder, as a clear example) really just the judgment of that action or does it necessitate a judgment of something more?
Maybe a better question is - if someone commits adultery once but is faithful the rest of their lives, for example, does that mean they are adulterers at heart? Jesus did say that out of the heart this comes :
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Matthew 15:18-20
And this seems to echo what Jeremiah prophesied :
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jeremiah 17:9-10
Which, as I read it, indicates that the Lord judges actions - but in so doing He is actually judging the heart. Which means, that the judgment of a man is all about who that man actually IS. In that context, one can get into whether moralistic teaching - that is, preaching that men shouldn't engage in certain behaviors as a primary focus of that preaching - is of any lasting value (or just serves to deceive the hearer). Or when Jesus talks to the Pharisees telling them they won't come to Him - is He just judging their choices or is He judging who they actually are? And if that is what they actually are (and realize this extends to everyone to whom His call goes out), what determines how they respond? Is it just a "choice"? So we are back to how one "chooses" God.
But that's not all - what about the nature of sin in the believer? Paul and John both make it clear that sinners don't enter heaven (and I know that's a rather controversial way of putting it - I'm just trying to make a point)....
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I Corinthians 6:9-11
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I John 3:9-10
The easiest way to reconcile this all is to say that the one who is born again never sins (ever!). But even then you have a problem since John himself admits that ALL unrighteousness is sin but that NOT all sin is "unto death".
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
I John 5:16
So even John (who is often used to support sinless perfection) isn't saying that one is actually sinless from the moment one is born again. Which goes back to the understanding of sin in the believer. Paul says "such WERE some of you" in I Cor 6:11 - so they are clearly not (after being in Christ) those things anymore. Yet there are believers who commit those same sins. But they are not judged because they are not any of those things (yet they do them). So again...we seem to be back to the judgment of who or what someone is - not so much what they do (though works are clearly judged).
So is the judgment of actions or individuals/identification (i.e. who or what someone is over against simply what they do) or both? I think the answer is "both" but anyone who thinks it's really actions that are being judged is missing the point. They are judged - but only as an extension of who is doing them. That's why the unbelieving are judged according to their works - their identification is not in Christ...their righteousness is of themselves. So in the final analysis, what is being judged is who they are and/or who they are identified with.
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Stop rejecting scripture.
popsthebuilder
New member
I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me. I asked if you were sinless and you said yes because sin equals death. So since you are alive still you are without sin?
Could you please attempt to clarify for this humble ignoramus.
Thank you
Peace
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