What gives any country the right to determine who rules someone else?

[DavidK]

Regarding the supposed abuse of American Indians: Prior to the settlers from Europe bringing Judeo-Christian doctrine, laws and culture to America, the American Indians were pagan savages that often times cannibalized infant babies, so save your liberal sob stories for someone who doesn't know better. I'd continue by talking about the kidnapping, brutal murder and enslavement of black Africans by other black Africans, but this politically incorrect article will cover that.

No liberal sob stories here. Evil doesn't excuse evil. That's biblical, not liberal.

Please be honest David and admit that you're liberal ("exploitation of the poor, subjection and murder of whole people groups" gave it away) that hates the Judeo-Christian based free enterprise system with a passion. That being said:

Nope, just aware of the darkness in the hearts of men, rich or poor, liberal or conservative, of every ethnicity and political bent. Read the scriptures. God gets just as angry over the exploitation of the poor as he does over sexual immorality.

The infanticide that you're referring to started on a large scale in 1973 and is still continuing today. If the Due Process clause in the Bill of Rights were enforced, there would be 59 million dead babies that would be alive today.

It is a horror. The blood of those children is crying out to the Lord for justice. As is the blood of the children aborted in the first hundred years of this nation.

The Founding Fathers and the Right to Life

That's great. Someone was defending the unborn, and some of the founding fathers listened to his lectures. As far as I'm aware, abortion was still legal until the mid nineteenth century.

If you want to compare the Founding Fathers and their lack of medical knowledge to the barbarians behind Roe v Wade, make your case, I'll listen.

The point is that this nation has found convenience in the blood and suffering of the vulnerable since its founding. That blood and suffering speaks far louder to our just Father than all the words spoken by men, founding fathers or otherwise.

The Bible is full of stories where righteous men helped overthrow oppressive governments. If you don't believe that God approves of such, make your biblical case.

Now you're jumping into the nation of Israel. I hope you're not one who thinks everything that was righteous for Israel is right for the United States. Where are the biblical stories of people doing so under the new covenant? Apart from the future date when our Lord returns and puts all the nations under His rule, of course.

So Nazi Germany could have been defeated solely through prayer?

What does scripture say?

So you're a theocrat who doesn't believe in the people being represented at local, county, state and federal levels.

Would a label be more comfortable?

I admire what the founding fathers did in forming the United States. It's a really good attempt at creating a system of government that keeps the worst of human nature from running over everything. Really, on the scale of history, though, even if it really was "great" up until FDR, that means this great democratic republic lasted lasted a mere century and a half.

I'm a citizen of another kingdom, run by God incarnate, so yes, I guess that I'm a theocrat. Though I adamantly don't want the United States to become a theocracy until Jesus returns, so I wouldn't fit in with the theocrats who hope to have some celebrity pastor or cultural Christian installed in the White House.

If there's a case for the greatness of United States among nations run by men, I'd think it would be based on freedom of worship. That case could be made, however, for a good number of western nations.

The only conservative 3rd Party candidate that I know of was Darrel Castle of the Constitution Party. Based on your liberal rantings above ( "the exploitation of the poor, subjection and murder of whole people groups") you don't sound like a constitutionalist conservative to me.

Definitely not, but abortion is a big deal. It'd be handy if I could find a neat label to fit under, but I haven't yet.

Until our Lord returns, I'm an ambassador of another nation who happens to be stationed in a country that gives me the right and responsibility of voting in their elections. I take that seriously, and try to listen for how my King would have me vote.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Regarding the supposed abuse of American Indians: Prior to the settlers from Europe bringing Judeo-Christian doctrine, laws and culture to America, the American Indians were pagan savages that often times cannibalized infant babies, so save your liberal sob stories for someone who doesn't know better. I'd continue by talking about the kidnapping, brutal murder and enslavement of black Africans by other black Africans, but this politically incorrect article will cover that.

No liberal sob stories here. Evil doesn't excuse evil. That's biblical, not liberal.

Now that we've established that European settlers brought Judeo-Christian doctrine, laws and culture to a land occupied by pagan barbarians and made it a country that those throughout the world would envy...


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Please be honest David and admit that you're liberal ("exploitation of the poor, subjection and murder of whole people groups" gave it away) that hates the Judeo-Christian based free enterprise system with a passion. That being said:

Nope, just aware of the darkness in the hearts of men, rich or poor, liberal or conservative, of every ethnicity and political bent. Read the scriptures. God gets just as angry over the exploitation of the poor as he does over sexual immorality.

That's right, God told the Jews to put to death those who didn't tithe 10% of their income not those who engaged in homosexuality and immoral sexual behaviors. Now that I think about, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah not because of sexual immorality, but because it's occupants didn't have enough soup kitchens.

I have a Bible nearby, let me check on that...


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
So Nazi Germany could have been defeated solely through prayer?

What does scripture say?

I was hoping that you'd ask:

Ecclesiastes 3:8 Matthew 10:34 Romans 13:4 Psalm 144:1 etc. etc. etc.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
The only conservative 3rd Party candidate that I know of was Darrel Castle of the Constitution Party. Based on your liberal rantings above ( "the exploitation of the poor, subjection and murder of whole people groups") you don't sound like a constitutionalist conservative to me.

Until our Lord returns, I'm an ambassador of another nation who happens to be stationed in a country that gives me the right and responsibility of voting in their elections. I take that seriously, and try to listen for how my King would have me vote.

Since we obviously worship two different "Kings", I think I hear Him whispering "David, don't vote at all, you've done enough harm already."

My point has been made, no need for you to respond.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by intojoy
Then you need to repent for not voting for who God elected.

I very much believe God is using Trump. Somewhere on this site you'll be able find me saying I thought Trump could win, because it would be true to God's character. But that doesn't mean I believe God wanted me to vote for him. God has set in many kings and used them to His purpose, but that is different than wanting His people to support them. A great deal of them have been set in over history for the express purpose to get His people not to turn to worldly leaders, and instead return to Him.

I never did see who handed Donald Trump the LGBTQueer flag of death at his rally in Greely CO that he proudly held 2 days before the Presidential election David. I highly doubt that it was an act of Divinity.

 

[DavidK]

Now that we've established that European settlers brought Judeo-Christian doctrine, laws and culture to a land occupied by pagan barbarians and made it a country that those throughout the world would envy...

There were believers among them that brought Christ with them, yes. The same could be said for a lot of colonization that happened out of Europe.

Hey, you can even say that through slavery Christ was brought many people of African descent, and that the devotion and zeal of the black church in America has at times put much of the white church to shame. But I hope you're not going to argue that slavery was "great" because of that?

The Lord has used a lot of evil throughout history to bring something good out of darkness, advancing His kingdom in spite of the intent of the adversary to do horrors.

As for a country the rest of the world envies... there's one that springs to mind from scripture, in Revelation 17. Are you saying the envy of the world is a mark of righteousness? Or are you saying the United States is the Great Harlot?

That's right, God told the Jews to put to death those who didn't tithe 10% of their income not those who engaged in homosexuality and immoral sexual behaviors. Now that I think about, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah not because of sexual immorality, but because it's occupants didn't have enough soup kitchens.

I have a Bible nearby, let me check on that...

No need, I'll do it for you.

Eze 16:49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

And please note, I didn't say God doesn't judge a nation for sexual immorality or idolatry. I said God gets just as angry over the oppression of the poor. Spend some time in the books of the prophets.

I was hoping that you'd ask:

Ecclesiastes 3:8

Just a reminder, the question we're answering is whether the bible says that Nazi Germany could have been defeated solely through prayer, not whether or not war can be justified. Clearly there is a time for war. One such time will be the fulfillment of Revelation 19.

Matthew 10:34

I would have thought you better than that. Clearly Jesus isn't talking about nations liberating people from oppressive leaders.

Romans 13:4

Again, no reference to whether or not prayer could have defeated Nazi Germany. It doesn't even reference war between states, but the authority of governments to enforce law within their jurisdiction. Also, This passage is written to believers about their relationship with earthly governments. It actually goes against the spirit of the passage to start seeing Christians enforcing righteous government through arms.

Psalm 144:1

Great, and here we come to Israel. Clearly Israel has been told to take up the sword. They had to take the promised land (largely) by force. David's obligation as king was to defend his people. Are you saying that the Church under the new covenant has a mandate from the Lord to take territory and defend borders at swordpoint?[/quote]

Since we obviously worship two different "Kings", I think I hear Him whispering "David, don't vote at all, you've done enough harm already."

That's unfortunate. From what I've read of your posts, I expect you worship Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, who was crucified for our sin, who was raised and who ascended to the Father. I expect you and I completely agree on every doctrine necessary for salvation. The actual question is which of us hears Him more clearly on the role of His body in the world, but I still see us as brothers in Christ and servants of the same King.

It's one of the unfortunate things about TOL, though probably the Church in general, that we too quickly go from disagreement to accusation of not being of the same Christ.

My point has been made, no need for you to respond.

Bummer. I was especially looking forward to your take on the Ezekiel passage.

If you choose not to continue this conversation, thank you for engaging in it up to this point. I value your presence and contribution to this site.

 

[DavidK]

I never did see who handed Donald Trump the LGBTQueer flag of death at his rally in Greely CO that he proudly held 2 days before the Presidential election David. I highly doubt that it was an act of Divinity.

Why not? It could very well have been the Lord with one final attempt to get the attention of those who claim His name in this country. Something like, "Is this really what you want?"

For decades now a large portion of those who claim Christ have been faithfully following the Republican party, content with mostly lip service and very little follow through from the party. I see a steady progression of steadily worse candidates sent to test that faithfulness.

How long will you vie for what the world calls power? What kind of man will get you to say, "Enough!"? Will you support a cult member because he's the conservative option? Will you rejoice over a blatant hedonist because he says God a few times and gets prosperity preachers to pray with him?

What a grievous thing when Christians in this country have said, "We have found a righteous candidate, but he isn't really electable, so lets go with the unrighteous one."

God gives us what we ask for, sometimes even when we ask for the absolutely wrong thing. The Israelite's wanted a king so bad, God gave them Saul. So much of the western churches theology is absolutely bonkers. There is a different thing between God setting in a ruler and it being righteous for us to endorse it.