WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Please provide verses to back up your assertion Paul was only speaking what God told him to speak.
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Please provide verses to back up your assertion Paul was only speaking what God told him to speak.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Why do you put words in other people's mouths, is so that you can have an argument with yourself?:argue:
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
I had already explain this to you in another thread but I will post it here again as it is relevant to this thread too:
Abraham's side is also called Paradise and is a place in Hell:
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Jesus also went to this place where Abraham was:
1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the Gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Jesus Himself alluded to the fact that he was going to descend to Hell after his death:
John 10:16
“I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock, and one shepherd.”
And . . .
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered [to the criminal on the cross next to] him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Paradise is the name of three different places in the Bible: Eden, a garden in Heaven, and a place where the righteous went after death. After Jesus preached in Hell Jesus resurrected and confirmed that He had as yet to ascend to Heaven, as He told Mary:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father, and your Father, to my God, and your God.”
Because Jesus was ceremonially clean, He could not let anyone touch Him until He had presented Himself before God. After He had done this Jesus was seen again by the women who were hurrying back from the tomb, where He then allowed them to touch Him:
Matthew 28:8-9
8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet, and worshipped him.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
You need scripture to back that up.
This prophesy was fulfilled at Pentecost. Not in OT times.
Nothing there about the Spirit taking Ezekiel to Heaven after his death.
Nothing there about the Spirit taking Ezekiel to Heaven after his death.
Nothing there about the Spirit taking David to Heaven after his death.
Nothing there about the Spirit taking David to Heaven after his death.
Nothing there about the Spirit taking David to Heaven after his death.
Nothing there about the Spirit taking Saul to Heaven after his death.
Nothing there about the Spirit taking Bezaleel to Heaven after his death.
God's Truth
New member
How many times do you have to be told that the rich man was in hell and FAR AWAY.
Jesus went to Hell to the DISOBEDIENT.
God's Truth
New member
I don't do what you claim, but now I see that you do.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
They could see and hear each other across the Abyss, a few hundred feet at most.
1 Timothy 1:1-12 KJV -
[FONT="] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;[/FONT]
2 Corinthians 1:1-3 KJV -
[FONT="] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
Galatians 2 - KJV -
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:[/FONT][FONT="]7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
[/FONT][FONT="]9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
[/FONT]
marhig
Well-known member
You said that people didn't receive the holy spirit before Pentecost, you also said that the Spirit wasn't in the prophets, those verses show you that the Spirit was within them and if the Spirit was in them, then they were born of God.
Also, how about you showing me the verses that say that Elijah and moses went to hell?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
There is nothing there that says they received the Holy Spirit either (which would have taken them to Heaven). The closest one was:
Exodus 35
And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship
But it was only for knowledge not for salvation.
Regarding Elijah and Moses it does not state where they came from or where they went so neither of us can site that verses as proof either way.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
1 Timothy 1:1-12 KJV -
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B] [/B][/FONT][COLOR=#4b0082][SIZE=4][B]Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]3 [/B][/FONT]As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]5 [/B][/FONT][B]Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]7 [/B][/FONT]Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]9 [/B][/FONT]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]11 [/B][/FONT][COLOR=#4b0082][SIZE=4][B]According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, [U][SIZE=5]which was committed to my trust[/SIZE][/U].[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;[/FONT]
2 Corinthians 1:1-3 KJV -
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B] [/B][/FONT][COLOR=#4b0082][SIZE=4][U][B]Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God[/B][/U][/SIZE][/COLOR], and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]3 [/B][/FONT]Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
[SIZE=4][B]Galatians 2 - KJV - [/B][/SIZE]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.[/FONT]
[FONT="][SIZE=4][B][FONT=Arial][B]2 [/B][/FONT][U][COLOR=#4b0082][SIZE=5]And I went up by revelation[/SIZE][/COLOR][/U], and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,[/B][/SIZE] but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]4 [/B][/FONT]And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]6 [/B][/FONT]But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]8 [/B][/FONT](For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]10 [/B][/FONT]Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]12 [/B][/FONT]For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]14 [/B][/FONT]But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]16 [/B][/FONT]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]18 [/B][/FONT]For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]20 [/B][/FONT][B]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
[/FONT]
Nothing there that says God told Paul what words to speak. This only happened with Jesus.
God's Truth
New member
There was still a GREAT CHASM between them and it still is far away from HELL, and there was comfort on one side, and on the other side was torture and agony and fire.
Now admit you spoke wrong.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Correct, now you understand how Jesus described Hell. All three parts are in Hell. God, who is in Heaven is not there but when Jesus went to Hell after His death, he brought with Him the first fruits of the harvest of souls which He presented to God:
Mathew 27
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father, and your Father, to my God, and your God.”
Jesus took these Holy men as the first fruits offering to God. These were the first humans to ENTER Heaven:
Deuteronomy 16:16 No one should appear before the LORD empty-handed.
This was on the day of First Fruits! (Aviv 16)
God's Truth
New member
You are stubborn. Abraham and Lazarus were far away from hell. You will have to submit to that truth, for it is scripture.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
You are far away from the truth. :chuckle:
marhig
Well-known member
If they had the Holy Spirit within, then they received the Holy Spirit. And if they have the Holy Spirit in their hearts, then they are walking in the Spirit and God will be changing their hearts and they will be born of God, becoming a new man as seen here in samuel 10
Samuel 10
And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
I can hear the Spirit in the prophets. They are strong men on God. And you can't be a strong man of God, if you haven't got the indwelling Holy Spirit. And they definitely couldn't go through what many prophets in the old testament went through without God and his Spirit within guiding and helping them.
Do you really think that Daniel resisted the kings commandments without the power of God? And went into the den of lions without God's Spirit strengthening him? How did he interpret the king's dreams without being enlightened by revelation from the Spirit of God?
Daniel walked in the Spirit putting God first always and that's why he had the power and wisdom that he had, and that power and wisdom came from the Holy Spirit of God.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
This question as to whether OT prophets had the Holy Spirit is not really addressing the OP. Even though you think the Holy Spirit was given before Pentecost and I don't doesn't really help as we need to show scriptures that show OT prophets etc going into Heaven, and there are none.
marhig
Well-known member
Blimey Watchman, where do you think Paul got his wisdom and understanding from? He couldn't have spoken the wisdom of God as he did if the Spirit didn't give him what to speak? Paul is very strong in the Spirit.
And Jesus said this.
Luke 12
And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
And there this in acts 2
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And the Spirit gave Paul what to say too.
marhig
Well-known member
Well I've given you verses that clearly show that the Spirit was in the prophets, and if the Spirit was within them and they obeyed God and kept their faith till the end, then there is no way they went to hell.
And there's this
Genesis 5
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
If Enoch walked with God and God took him, then there's no way Enoch went to hell.
Anyway I can't believe the those strong men of God, went to hell. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Blimey yourself. Do you really think every word Paul spoke was what God had said to Paul verbatim? Of course not. In fact there is not one time Paul says that God had told him what to say. Most of Pauls knowledge was from what he already knew from years of Torah study as a Pharisee:
Acts 26:24
At this point Festus interrupted Paul's defense. "You are out of your mind, Paul!" he shouted. "Your great learning is driving you insane."
Acts 22:3
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.
Do you know who Gamaliel was?
Acts 23:6
Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."
This was why he was such a good writer and why 31% of the NT is his, more than anyone else. However this is going off the OP.
This again is NT and going off the OT.
NT again, off OP.
No the Holy Spirit didn't, or please give the scriptures to support this, but it is off topic.