ECT What does the saved individual gain if he is born again?

[Cross Reference]

Yes ... this is why I describe salvation as a process.

To me, we are spirit filled, while we are alive here on earth.

But the next step is to die and be born again.

Spirit filled - is a term that can be used to describe this relation ship with our risen savior.
He sent the Holy Spirit into the world on the day of Pentacost. That spirit is IN THE BELIEVER ... and because the Spirit is IN US ... we are secure IN HIM.

Why of course, the thief on the cross saw it all that way as well. Go figure.

 

[jamie]

Gen. 1 God established mankind (male and female). I honestly believe that they existed in some spiritual form within God ... but without a visible body.

That is just the opposite of what Paul taught.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.
(1 Corinthians 15:44 NKJV)​

But which comes first, the natural body or the spiritual body?

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural and afterward the spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:46 NKJV)​

 

[Ps82]

That is just the opposite of what Paul taught.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.
(1 Corinthians 15:44 NKJV)​

But which comes first, the natural body or the spiritual body?

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural and afterward the spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:46 NKJV)​

I believe that I Corin. 15:44 is talking about those of us who became descendants of Adam because Paul was talking to the brethren who followed Christ. He was telling them that the process of resurrection is real ... and, of course, Lord Jesus was able to completely demonstrate God's method or plan for carrying it out.

The first sown of humanity was Abel. The blood of Abel's dead body cried out to God from the ground where it was sown. In my opinion - what applied to Abel and applies to those of us today did not apply to Adam and woman.

In the same way that male and female both existing within the one male bodily form of Adam does not apply to any of us who came after them.

Now some of I Corin. 12 and forward say that Christ demonstrated that resurrection for humanity was a fact.

I Corin. 12:38-40 make it clear that each seed is given a body of its own.

Now the question is ... what is meant by "seed" and "its own body" ?

I believe this verse is saying that the offspring of every creature is each given a specific body of its own. A bird has one type and a human has another. All living flesh is not alike. Even the angels, which are not flesh, have a body different from other creatures. It was God's choice how each creature would look.

Of course, God chose to make man after HIS own image. Genesis 1:26,27 The human type image with which Jesus appeared.


Therefore if that God given body received at conception dies it becomes a planted seed that can be resurrected. Jesus took on mortal flesh so he could go through the process to make WAY for us to follow him into his kingdom.

I Corinthians 15:45-48 are the most fantastic verses for they compare the nature of the first man Adam ... with the nature of the Messiah, who was also referred to as the last Adam.

quote: It is written: The first man Adam was MADE A SOUL.

This is what I described ... the spiritual Adam was then made into a living soul with the addition of his body. Gen. 1 and Gen.2

quote: the last Adam (speaking of the promised Messiah -Jesus) was made a quickening spirit.

To me this means that Christ was a spirit that had the ability or a command or power to "quickeneth." The Christ who was born of woman was given the power to quickeneth flesh! He proved this ability by healing mortals, forming living eyes for them, raising people from the dead, and ultimately picking up his dead body and quickening IT and then appearing with it alive and walking around. IOW quickened.

Hers is I Corinthians 15:46 with my take within (...). BTW, this verse is not a question of how ... but rather a statement of how be it or we'd say: how it is.

Howbeit that (who came as Messiah) was not first which is spiritual

I perceive it this way: The Messiah who was spiritual and eternally God and with God was not the first Adam who came ... but rather it was created Adam who came into the world first.

I make this conclusion based on the verse that follow
I Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth (the ground), earthy: (but) the second man (the Messiah) is the LORD of HEAVEN.

48 As is the earthy (the first Adam), such are they also that are earthy (those born as Adamic descendents): and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

IOW, descendants of the first Adam are like Adam.
BUT, the heavenly will be like the heavenly. I think this may refer to the bodies awaiting us in heaven for us to put on when our inner spirits are rescued from mortal death into eternal life. These heavenly bodies, which God has ready for us, are mentioned in 2 Corin. 5:1-2!!!

This next verse describes the culmination of resurrection:

I Corinthians 15:49
quote: And as we have borne the image of the earthy (the first Adam - our father and mother), we shall also bear the IMAGE of the heavenly (being our new risen and glorified parent).

Do you remember Jesus asking this question: Who is my mother and my father? Then he pointed to the people in front of him saying something like this: These are my mother my father my brothers and sisters. Jesus was saying that humanity had been his conduit for him to enter into this world and thus his lineage could be traced from Adam to David ... to Mary.

Well, those of us resurrected might point to Jesus and say: This is our father our mother our brother now that we are born again through him as our conduit into his kingdom.

I'm so sorry that I get so long ... I'm just always full of words.

 

[StanJ]

Use scripture to support that.

Well if you read a little further on in John 3, you will note Jesus saying that He came to save the world, v3, so we can safely extrapolate that salvation is equivalent to being born again.
Now maybe you can explain why you asked and why you don't think they are one and the same?

 

[Cross Reference]

Well if you read a little further on in John 3, you will note Jesus saying that He came to save the world, v3, so we can safely extrapolate that salvation is equivalent to being born again.
Now maybe you can explain why you asked and why you don't think they are one and the same?

Did Jesus qualify His words (Jn 3:16) in any way? If you are serious, lets start there and move forward. We can keep it simple with that approach.

 

[Ps82]

Why of course, the thief on the cross saw it all that way as well. Go figure.

God was able to save those who lived and died before the crucifixion and before the Holy Spirit was sent to be in people. I'm guessing that the thief might have been briefly part of that group ... or he could have been with the Lord before that day of resurrection events was over. ????

This is an interesting topic to explore, but I admit I have never pursued this line of study. Perhaps you can share your thoughts with me.

Here are the limited sorts of things I 've read:

Since the Day of Pentacost ... we have been given an additional gift from God ... called the Holy Spirit in us. I believe that this gift makes it possible for us to be absent from the body and immediately be in the presence of our Lord.
I've read how the Spirit of God would "fall upon" men, long agon but then would leave... King Saul is a good example of this.

I know that Satan is said to have argued with an angel of the LORD over the possession of Moses's body. The LORD won and kept Moses's body for a reason. That let's me know that God was able to rescue men from the ill fated Lake of Fire even then. I'm figuring that they may have been placed in a realm where they were to await the ushering in of God's kingdom ... like the bosom of Abraham. Perhaps as they awaited they wore robes of white instead of having received their glorified bodies????

Because we have the gift of the Spirit in us, we are told being absent from the body we will be immediately present with the Lord ad given some sort of body in heaven that is awaiting our arrival. This might be the difference between pre-Holy Spirit and post-Holy Spirit where people went into the bosom of Abraham. John 1:18 says that the risen Christ was in the bosom of the Father after he ascended. We will skip the bosom of Abraham and go straight to be with our Lord. Lot to think about here.

Without looking up the exact details I will just say what I think I remember about this event:
I have read that Christ, before he took up his body again, went into another realm where he preached to certain individuals who had already passed away long before he came into the world ... so that these individuals might live where ever they were in accord with his will. I also have wondered whether those who were resurrected from their graves after Jesus died might also be part of this pre-holy spirit crowd who got caught up in the resurrection power of our Lord.

 

[StanJ]

Did Jesus qualify His words (Jn 3:16) in any way? If you are serious, lets start there and move forward. We can keep it simple with that approach.

Why would Jesus need to qualify anything? The issue I dealt with was salvation equating to being born again. I addressed it, so now let's see you address your assertion that it is not?

 

[Cross Reference]

Why would Jesus need to qualify anything? The issue I dealt with was salvation equating to being born again. I addressed it, so now let's see you address your assertion that it is not?

But He did quality it. I threw that at you to see if you would address it. If you can't I ain't going to discuss anything with you.

 

[StanJ]

But He did quality it. I threw that at you to see if you would address it. If you can't I ain't going to discuss anything with you.

Ahh one of those are you?
Tell you what, I'll address your points, when you address mine, otherwise I can't be bothered playing your game.

 

[Cross Reference]

God was able to save those who lived and died before the crucifixion and before the Holy Spirit was sent to be in people. I'm guessing that the thief might have been briefly part of that group ... or he could have been with the Lord before that day of resurrection events was over. ????

Were the righteous dead saved before the cross or simply justified? Where did the righteous dead reside? What is redemption all about?

Now, pertaining to salvation:

If salvation means "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8 ESV) after the cross, then your answer re the residence of justified righteous dead before the cross can only be, what??

This is an interesting topic to explore, but I admit I have never pursued this line of study. Perhaps you can share your thoughts with me.

Here are the limited sorts of things I 've read:

Since the Day of Pentacost ... we have been given an additional gift from God ... called the Holy Spirit in us

.

I don't find that is scriptural. Perhaps you might elaborate?

I believe that this gift makes it possible for us to be absent from the body and immediately be in the presence of our Lord.
I've read how the Spirit of God would "fall upon" men, long agon but then would leave... King Saul is a good example of this.

When was the Holy Spirit ever "given" in the OT? (cf John 7:39)

I know that Satan is said to have argued with an angel of the LORD over the possession of Moses's body. The LORD won and kept Moses's body for a reason. That let's me know that God was able to rescue men from the ill fated Lake of Fire even then. I'm figuring that they may have been placed in a realm where they were to await the ushering in of God's kingdom ... like the bosom of Abraham. Perhaps as they awaited they wore robes of white instead of having received their glorified bodies????

May I ask who or what authors are guiding your thinking in all this? It is very confusing, difficult to keep on track.

Because we have the gift of the Spirit in us, we are told being absent from the body we will be immediately present with the Lord ad given some sort of body in heaven that is awaiting our arrival. This might be the difference between pre-Holy Spirit and post-Holy Spirit where people went into the bosom of Abraham. John 1:18 says that the risen Christ was in the bosom of the Father after he ascended. We will skip the bosom of Abraham and go straight to be with our Lord. Lot to think about here.

Not really, if you understand what redemption accomplished for every man and the salvation is conditional.

Without looking up the exact details I will just say what I think I remember about this event:
I have read that Christ, before he took up his body again, went into another realm where he preached to certain individuals who had already passed away long before he came into the world ... so that these individuals might live where ever they were in accord with his will. I also have wondered whether those who were resurrected from their graves after Jesus died might also be part of this pre-holy spirit crowd who got caught up in the resurrection power of our Lord.

That is true for the three days He was dead and they did resurrect with Him. My above questions above pertain to all of the that. Perhaps you will address them one at a time just to keep things sorted out.

 

[Cross Reference]

Ahh one of those are you?
Tell you what, I'll address your points, when you address mine, otherwise I can't be bothered playing your game.

He qualified His declaration. What else need by asked of you to explain.

I didn't believe you were here in any serious way to begin with.

 

[Ps82]

Were the righteous dead saved before the cross or simply justified? Where did the righteous dead reside? What is redemption all about?

Now, pertaining to salvation:

If salvation means "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8 ESV) after the cross, then your answer re the residence of justified righteous dead before the cross can only be, what??

.

I don't find that is scriptural. Perhaps you might elaborate?



When was the Holy Spirit ever "given" in the OT? (cf John 7:39)



May I ask who or what authors are guiding your thinking in all this? It is very confusing, difficult to keep on track.



Not really, if you understand what redemption accomplished for every man and the salvation is conditional.



That is true for the three days He was dead and they did resurrect with Him. My above questions above pertain to all of the that. Perhaps you will address them one at a time just to keep things sorted out.

Hi Cross Reference,
Thank you for responding to my post.
Regarding the work of the Spirit in the OT ... I like to think of it as "It came upon people for a specific purpose and for a limited time." This is in contrast to how Christ left the Holy Spirit to be IN US and by this our being place IN HIM. Now it seems to not be that it is prone to come and go. Most people think that once we are "saved" it will not leave but rather become our helper, teacher, comforter, etc. and who is holding us like the hand of God until our process is completed. Jesus finished the process to show us what it is we will experience ... because people are still going through the process.


In the OT the spirit would "come upon" people to do all sorts of things through people. Here are a few examples:

The Spirit of God came upon Saul and he prophesied among the prophets.
I Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

It came upon various people to gift them with talents for making all the things required for the Tabernacle.
Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding and to knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship.

The Spirit would come upon or into prophets so that they received messages from him or saw visions.
Ezekiel 1:1 Now it came to pass .... by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God
Ezekiel 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I swa it I fell upon my face and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Ezekiel 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and (it) set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

Also check out Ezekiel 3:23-24; Judges 14:6,19

The way I study is by using my KJV Bible ... a Strong's Concordance, and a small set of study guides like a Bible dictionary and a Bible Handbook.

You asked me:

If salvation means "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8 ESV) after the cross, then your answer re the residence of justified righteous dead before the cross can only be, what??

I gave you some of my ideas already ... but have admitted to you that this is not a topic I have researched very much.

I like the term you used to mention those who died before the Messiah came and who were reserved for salvation. quote: "justified righteous dead" before the cross."

My guess is: God provided a special place - a heavenly realm - perhaps called the Bosom of Abraham - where their spiritual identity dwells or dwelt until Christ came. Their bodies went into the dust awaiting resurrection and glorification ... My other guess ... is that a robe of white awaited them so that they appeared in the Bosom of Abraham and will wear until they finally receive their final glorified body. I think Abraham,Enoch and Jesus may have actually modeled this heavenly shining white robe garment on the Mount of Transfiguration.

I still think that is the same robe or garment awaiting all believers when we die physically and go to be in the presence of our LORD.

All the saints await their final glorified bodies ... that is the reason I like to talk about salvation being a process that we go through.

Sorry must go ... company has stopped by.
My life calls me to be away for a time, but I look forward to coming back to TOL and trying to join in with more interesting conversations.

 

[StanJ]

He qualified His declaration. What else need by asked of you to explain.
I didn't believe you were here in any serious way to begin with.

and yet you are unable or unwilling to support your assertion. So be it.
I know when NOT to pursue an untamed ornithoid.

 

[nikolai_42]

Would it not be, innocence?

Persecution now and the kingdom of heaven later.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:10-12

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 4:28-31