Derf
Well-known member
Your physical body was never buried with Christ. Never.
What does it mean to "be in Christ"?
- Thread starter DAN P
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
It means to be in communion with the Church, the Church from Matthew 16 and from Matthew 18:17, the Church which celebrates Mass (Acts 2:42, 1st Corinthians 10&11), who offers the sacrifice of the Eucharist for the sins of the whole world (1st John 2:2), the Church which is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:8), the Church who is pastored by Biblical pastors (1st Timothy 3, 2nd Timothy 2:2, Titus 1:5), the one New Testament Church. There were many Eucharistic communities all around the Mediterranean and they were all in Christ.
Outside of the Church there is no salvation, but inspecting what the Church actually teaches about this discloses that it's all about faith in the Only begotten Son of God almighty Father John 3:16.
Right Divider
Body part
- The "church" anywhere in Matthew is not "the church which is His body" (which did not come in existence until Paul).
- The "church in the wilderness" is the same "church" as the one in Matthew.
- The "church" which celebrates "Mass" is not of God.
- The "church which is His body" (i.e., the body of Christ) has nothing to do with the new covenant.
It happened when I was "immersed" into Him and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)
If I wasn't buried with Him then I also wasn't raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
But the life I walk since my repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins is truly new.
Better, I might add.
Derf
Well-known member
Now we're getting somewhere! You were immersed, in baptism, but Peter tells us this is figurative, not physical. You figuratively were buried with Christ when you were physically immersed in water. Immersion is a symbol of death and resurrection.
1 Peter 3:21 (KJV)
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
If you wish to use that kind of logic, then the saving ark was also only a "figure". ("like figure")
However, knowing the ark was real, we can be assured that our salvation by the good conscience towards God we have after our baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is also real.
Derf
Well-known member
I've never suggested the salvation isn't real, only that some things we have been promised have not yet occurred, but we acknowledge them as ours already. The resurrection is one of those things. Our salvation, while assured to us, is not complete until the resurrection occurs.
Acts 17:18 (KJV)
Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Acts 24:15 (KJV) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Romans 6:5 (KJV)
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Philippians 3:11 (KJV)
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)
Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
All the bolded words are speaking of something in the future--the resurrection of the dead. That's our hope, what Christ came to give us.
You have only suggested that the means of obtaining that salvation isn't real.
Some promises have yet to be granted.
But others, like rebirth from God's seed, have already been granted.
That is achieved by first dying and being buried with Jesus, then being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...at water baptism after a real repentance from sin. (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
Right Divider
Body part
Paul never once commands or even recommends that we perform Jewish water rituals.
Paul says that there is ONE baptism... here it is:
1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
No water at all.
P.S. You probably think that the Spirit is water due to "and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
Derf
Well-known member
Can you show me where I suggested such?
"Granted" is an imprecise word for this discussion. If you are promise resurrection, but you haven't died yet (so resurrection is currently impossible), then has resurrection been "granted?" I'd say yes, but it could also be "no."
Water baptism is NOT being buried with Christ, nor is coming out of the water being physically raised with him. It's a picture (figure, symbol) of His death and resurrection, and an expression of our hope for our own resurrection, at which point we will have received what we hope for, and the old man will be completely gone. For now we still struggle in the conflict between old and new man, though through Christ the victory is assured.
Romans 6:5-6 (KJV) 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness {symbol} of his death, we shall be {future tense} also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed {future}, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Paul is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit in that verse, a baptism done by God.
The baptism he is not mentioning is the one done in obedience to Jesus, in His name for the remission of sins, and is done by man. (Acts 2:38)
Nope, God's gift of the Holy Ghost is not with water.
But baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is done with water.
Cornelius' household is a great mentioning of both baptisms, (Acts 10), as are the Acts 19 verses concerning the twelve at Ephesus. (Acts 19:1-7)
Post 25, where you said baptism's effects were only figurative and not physical.
Granted, given, why quibble about words?
Yes it is.
Has your version of baptism, (figurative only), allowed you to be freed from sin?
Did it crucify your flesh with the affections and lusts? (Gal 5:24)
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins did for me, actually.
Right Divider
Body part
Indeed he is... and he also says that there is ONE baptism for the body of Christ. One and ONLY one... no water involved.
That is, AGAIN, where your failure to rightly divide causes you great confusion.
Not for the body of Christ, which you should join.
Acts 10 is not about the body of Christ, it was about the transition from God's program for Israel on the earth and God's NEW program introduced through the apostle Paul. Peter had NO idea why God was sending him to a gentile.
Acts 19 is also not the pattern for the body of Christ.
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Derf
Well-known member
See your next comment:
Because words actually have meaning, which you asserted in the first sentence of your post. And because "granted" has a future feel to its meaning, at least in some usages. So when I said there were things promised but not yet received in our relationship with Christ (like physical resurrection and being seated physically with Him in heavenly places), you said these were already accomplished, while I was saying they weren't already accomplished. This "quibbling" about words is the whole reason we seem to be in disagreement. I could just say that it was ok to use a word incorrectly, but then our language becomes nonsense, and we are like the people of Babel after God confused their language--we can't understand each other, and we will go our separate ways. But that's the opposite of what God is doing in His church. He's reconciling people and bringing them together in a common understanding, if not yet a single language, and even the single language is foreshadowed by what happened at Pentecost.
Do you mean that I no longer sin in the flesh, or do you mean that my conscience is clear because Christ paid for my sins? Either answer might work for your question, but only one can be answered in the affirmative at this time. In the future, both will be a yes answer to your question.
There's no water mentioned in Gal 5:24. But a few verses later, we find out that not every believer has attained perfect sinlessness, despite being baptized.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Made up.
Made up.
Made up.
Made up.
Fun!
Right Divider
Body part
You're wrong on all counts.
You're a typical Catholic.
Right Divider
Body part
The term "in Christ" has to do with a relationship. There is more than one type of relationship that people can have with Christ depending on how God is dealing with them at the time.
This article explains this very well: https://graceambassadors.com/midacts/in-christ-before-paul
P.S. It should be noted that the term "in Christ" appears 78 times in scripture and 75 of those are in Paul's epistles!
This article explains this very well: https://graceambassadors.com/midacts/in-christ-before-paul
P.S. It should be noted that the term "in Christ" appears 78 times in scripture and 75 of those are in Paul's epistles!
All of what are commonly referred to as the "identification truths" are matters of Christian doctrine that we are to "reckon" to be true of ourselves. The word "reckon" is used most frequently in the King James and not as often in the New King James, which is the version I prefer but the meaning of the term is clearly portrayed in Romans 6:11...
Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It means to consider yourself to be, in the case of this particular verse, dead indeed to sin. It doesn't mean that you actually, physically are yet but only that you are "in Christ". Otherwise, there'd be no need to "reckon" it to be so because it would just be so. It's an acknowledgement that what is currently true of Christ will become true of us on that great day when we see Him face to face.
Not only that, but it happens to be THE secret to living the Christian life. The fact of the matter is that you cannot live the Christian life. A lesson Hoping will never learn, by the way. The harder you try, the more God Himself will see to it that you fail because He isn't interested in helping you be righteous. For those who are in Christ, it is His righteousness or none at all. Anything you do (or don't do) of your own effort is of the flesh, which we are to crucify and reckon to be dead - by faith. It is a matter of believing it to be the truth because God said its the truth and not because we see it with our eyes. And, the more true the identification truths become to us, the more we diminish, the more Christ is able to live His life through us.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Clete
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The KJV of the bible leaves out the "only" from Eph 4:5.
Good thing too, as I know of at least 5 baptisms spoken of in the bible.
Heb 6 speaks of baptism in the plural too.
Paul mentions two NT baptisms in Acts 19.
Three if you count John's baptism unto repentance from sin
If I really wanted to bypass remission of sins, and the washing by the blood of Christ, and the justification and sanctification of my vessel, the killing of the old man and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, and the circumcision made without hands, I might consider joining in your doctrines.
Strange that you don't consider every convert as a member of the body of Christ.
I would think it would be the folks who have forgone their "immersion" into Christ as the ones not in Christ.
So according to you, the twelve at Ephesus, who received the gift of the Holy Ghost at the hand of Paul, are not in the body of Christ?
I just can't agree.