What does God's Holy Law Demand?

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Of course He would never actually say it! It's called a hypothetical question! Such questions are not asked to impugn God's character but to test your own! How can you possibly know whether what you believe is the actual truth if you're afraid to answer even the simplest of questions that are designed to it's veracity?

This is seriously like talking to a third grade child! :bang:


If God were to say that its just fine to murder your neighbor so long and he has made you really, really mad then that would not make murder right, it would mean that God is evil, Jacob.

That's because right and wrong are not determined by fiat. God is NOT arbitrary. God is not good because He says so but because He does rightly.

Now, I've given you the right answer, (which I could have done days ago but answering one's own questions in what aught to be a two way conversation is really rather boring). Will you go as far as stating plainly that you agree with it (or not) or is that too much to ask?

Resting in Him,
Clete
I already know God is good, so I don't even consider ideas such as that God is evil.

I have been through some of these questions in the past, but I know God's word so they are not a challenge. I can only say I am not used to questions like these. Meaning, Biblical knowledge of God and His word, His Law, and Jesus Christ, are better than any philosophical question that might be posed.

I really don't know what you are giving me another chance with. My life is founded on Jesus Christ and according to the word of God.

Blessings.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I already know God is good, so I don't even consider ideas such as that God is evil.
Answering the question "Is God good?" is one of life's fundamental questions, Jacob. If you get past, "Does God exist?" with a, "Yes", then the very next question is whether or not He's worth paying any attention too. And so whether, you want to admit it or not, at some point or another, you not only asked that question, you answered it, whether directly or by implication.

What's more is that I haven't even asked you whether God is good or evil! Every question I've asked doesn't even make any sense outside the presumption of God's goodness! I'm not asking you whether God is good, I'm asking you about the nature of good and evil. What makes good good and evil bad? Is it because of a fiat declaration that God has made? If so, then in what sense does is it meaningful to call God good?

These are not new questions. They've been asked for millennia and some of the greatest human minds that have ever existed have spent their lives attempting to answer them, some more successfully than others. And thanks to the technology available to us today, normal average people like you and me have access to much of that work and can explore it and can learn from both their successes and their errors. Doing so requires courage though. You can't be scared to think through someone else's ideas for fear of your own crashing down around your ankles.

I have been through some of these questions in the past, but I know God's word so they are not a challenge. I can only say I am not used to questions like these. Meaning, Biblical knowledge of God and His word, His Law, and Jesus Christ, are better than any philosophical question that might be posed.
Do you even hear yourself think? Biblical knowledge of God and His word, and Jesus Christ (same thing) IS PHILOSOPHY!!!!

What it true is true, whether its in the Bible or in your back yard! The truth does not contradict itself, Jacob! Every truth claim, whether the claim is made in the Bible or on PBS, is either true or it is false (given a specific context). We do not trust the bible by virtue of the fact that its the bible but because we trust God! Why do we trust God? You would answer because the Bible tells us that we can, but you haven't thought it through enough to realize that this is not only circular reasoning but that it puts the bible above God! The bible is NOT the source for truth, Jacob - God is! The bible is true only if God is both real and righteous! And exploring such questions is what is called Christian philosophy a.k.a. Christian theology.

Philosophy = Philo- "loving" + sophia "knowledge, wisdom," or sophis "wise, learned;" = the love of learning or the love of wisdom or the love of knowledge.

Theology = The logos of the Theos. The knowledge of God!



I really don't know what you are giving me another chance with. My life is founded on Jesus Christ and according to the word of God.

Blessings.
Why are you here?

I don't mean, why are you alive on planet Earth, I mean, why are you participating on a theology forum? Is it not to discuss and debate theological issues? Is it not to perhaps learn something from someone as well as to maybe teach something to someone else? Is it not to test your metal against those who might disagree with you and to see if what you think you know is really true and worth knowing? I'm giving you a second chance to sharpen your steel against mine.

I think that the topic you've raised is one of the most important topics that can be raised and I really enjoy discussing it with just about anyone I find who is willing to do so. But I'm not interested in discussing it with myself. Discussions include a two way exchange where one party asks questions and the other gives answers which typically lead to other questions until finally a major point is made and either agreement happens or perhaps the question/answer exchange switches direction and another aspect of the issue is explored. If both parties participate with honesty and courage both are edified whether any agreement is ever reached at all. This kind of exchange is what I'm trying my hardest to get you to participate in. It's both interesting and fun precisely because it isn't easy and it isn't safe. If you aren't interested in having your most basic beliefs challenged, even by someone who is not your enemy, then I recommend finding another hobby. What in the world are you going to do if your beliefs are ever challenged by someone who is actually hostile to your beliefs?


So, having said all of that, would you agree with the following....

If God were to say that its just fine to murder your neighbor so long and he has made you really, really mad then that would not make murder right, it would mean that God is evil.

That's because right and wrong are not determined by fiat. God is NOT arbitrary. God is not good because He says so but because He does rightly. Right and wrong are not so because God said it, God said it because it is so.​


Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Answering the question "Is God good?" is one of life's fundamental questions, Jacob. If you get past, "Does God exist?" with a, "Yes", then the very next question is whether or not He's worth paying any attention too. And so whether, you want to admit it or not, at some point or another, you not only asked that question, you answered it, whether directly or by implication.

What's more is that I haven't even asked you whether God is good or evil! Every question I've asked doesn't even make any sense outside the presumption of God's goodness! I'm not asking you whether God is good, I'm asking you about the nature of good and evil. What makes good good and evil bad? Is it because of a fiat declaration that God has made? If so, then in what sense does is it meaningful to call God good?

These are not new questions. They've been asked for millennia and some of the greatest human minds that have ever existed have spent their lives attempting to answer them, some more successfully than others. And thanks to the technology available to us today, normal average people like you and me have access to much of that work and can explore it and can learn from both their successes and their errors. Doing so requires courage though. You can't be scared to think through someone else's ideas for fear of your own crashing down around your ankles.


Do you even hear yourself think? Biblical knowledge of God and His word, and Jesus Christ (same thing) IS PHILOSOPHY!!!!

What it true is true, whether its in the Bible or in your back yard! The truth does not contradict itself, Jacob! Every truth claim, whether the claim is made in the Bible or on PBS, is either true or it is false (given a specific context). We do not trust the bible by virtue of the fact that its the bible but because we trust God! Why do we trust God? You would answer because the Bible tells us that we can, but you haven't thought it through enough to realize that this is not only circular reasoning but that it puts the bible above God! The bible is NOT the source for truth, Jacob - God is! The bible is true only if God is both real and righteous! And exploring such questions is what is called Christian philosophy a.k.a. Christian theology.

Philosophy = Philo- "loving" + sophia "knowledge, wisdom," or sophis "wise, learned;" = the love of learning or the love of wisdom or the love of knowledge.

Theology = The logos of the Theos. The knowledge of God!




Why are you here?

I don't mean, why are you alive on planet Earth, I mean, why are you participating on a theology forum? Is it not to discuss and debate theological issues? Is it not to perhaps learn something from someone as well as to maybe teach something to someone else? Is it not to test your metal against those who might disagree with you and to see if what you think you know is really true and worth knowing? I'm giving you a second chance to sharpen your steel against mine.

I think that the topic you've raised is one of the most important topics that can be raised and I really enjoy discussing it with just about anyone I find who is willing to do so. But I'm not interested in discussing it with myself. Discussions include a two way exchange where one party asks questions and the other gives answers which typically lead to other questions until finally a major point is made and either agreement happens or perhaps the question/answer exchange switches direction and another aspect of the issue is explored. If both parties participate with honesty and courage both are edified whether any agreement is ever reached at all. This kind of exchange is what I'm trying my hardest to get you to participate in. It's both interesting and fun precisely because it isn't easy and it isn't safe. If you aren't interested in having your most basic beliefs challenged, even by someone who is not your enemy, then I recommend finding another hobby. What in the world are you going to do if your beliefs are ever challenged by someone who is actually hostile to your beliefs?


So, having said all of that, would you agree with the following....

If God were to say that its just fine to murder your neighbor so long and he has made you really, really mad then that would not make murder right, it would mean that God is evil.

That's because right and wrong are not determined by fiat. God is NOT arbitrary. God is not good because He says so but because He does rightly. Right and wrong are not so because God said it, God said it because it is so.​


Resting in Him,
Clete

I don't entirely follow you. Because,

Colossians 2:8 NASB - See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Again, we aren't dealing with hypotheticals here. We are dealing with the truth of and about God found in His word, the Bible.
 

JonahofAkron

New member
No one is under the law for righteousness sake.

The whole unbelieving world will be judged by the moral aspects of the law but no one, not one single living soul on this planet is required to become circumcised and if they do so (as a religious ritual - I'm not making reference to social/cultural practices) Christ will profit them nothing.

Resting in Him,
Clete
The problem is they tried to be justified by circumcision and keeping the law. Acts 15:1

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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I don't entirely follow you. Because,

Colossians 2:8 NASB - See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Again, we aren't dealing with hypotheticals here. We are dealing with the truth of and about God found in His word, the Bible.

What's not to follow?

Do you suppose I'm attempting to take you captive in some way or to deceive you?

The verse you site isn't a prohibition against philosophy per se! It couldn't be because it teaching you philosophy!

It's simply telling you to be on your guard against lies! Don't allow yourself to be tricked into believing things that are false by some sort of fancy intellectual foot work. Be smart, think and use Christ (i.e. God) as your standard of truth.

Okay now, seriously, this is your final chance with me. If you want to be intellectually challenged and think through your beliefs and see if they survive the process (they will if they're true) then you WILL directly respond to what I've said with something of substance. If you don't, I'll leave you to whatever the hell it is that you think you're doing here and you can waste someone else's time....

Would you or would you not agree with the following....

If God were to say that its just fine to murder your neighbor so long and he has made you really, really mad then that would not make murder right, it would mean that God is evil.

That's because right and wrong are not determined by fiat. God is NOT arbitrary. God is not good because He says so but because He does rightly. Right and wrong are not so because God said it, God said it because it is so.​

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

God's Truth

New member
Don't be stupid.

Oh wait, you can't help it, can you?

I don't put down Jesus, I put you down.

In Jesus it does not matter about Jew and Gentile, even though he was born of an earthy mother who was blood related to Abraham and David.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The problem is they tried to be justified by circumcision and keeping the law. Acts 15:1

Sent from my SM-N910T using TheologyOnline mobile app

When the law was in effect, those that were under it were so justified...

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

It is only those of us who are saved by faith alone, apart from works who are not justified by observance of the law...

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.​

If your doctrine is correct, one of those men are liars. Which is it, Paul or James?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

God's Truth

New member
When the law was in effect, those that were under it were so justified...

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

It is only those of us who are saved by faith alone, apart from works who are not justified by observance of the law...

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.​

If your doctrine is correct, one of those men are liars. Which is it, Paul or James?

Resting in Him,
Clete
They were both Jews.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
In Jesus it does not matter about Jew and Gentile, even though he was born of an earthy mother who was blood related to Abraham and David.
That's Paul's teaching, not Jesus'!


Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 

JonahofAkron

New member
When the law was in effect, those that were under it were so justified...

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

It is only those of us who are saved by faith alone, apart from works who are not justified by observance of the law...

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.​

If your doctrine is correct, one of those men are liars. Which is it, Paul or James?

Resting in Him,
Clete
When did the Law stop being in effect?

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JonahofAkron

New member
When the law was in effect, those that were under it were so justified...

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

It is only those of us who are saved by faith alone, apart from works who are not justified by observance of the law...

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.​

If your doctrine is correct, one of those men are liars. Which is it, Paul or James?

Resting in Him,
Clete
And I would say neither. Because they are the two different sides of the same coin.

James says that your faith will produce and that's how we know you actually have faith.

Paul clearly says that the faith is the important piece of this. He is saying that he was not justified by works.

They cannot be in opposition.

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God's Truth

New member
That's Paul's teaching, not Jesus'!


Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul taught the same thing that Jesus taught!

First to the Jews...the lost sheep...and then to the Gentiles.


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
When did the Law stop being in effect?

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Well, those who were saved under the law, remained under it until their physical death but Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ, the first to be saved under the Gospel of Grace. God cut off Israel with the stoning of Stephen, converted Paul on the Damascus Road and sent him first to Israel and eventually to the Gentiles. Some years later, the twelve agreed with Paul that they would stay in Israel and minister to "The Circumcision" and he (Paul) would go to the "Uncircumcision" (i.e. the Gentiles). Thus, for a time, there were two groups. There were Jews saved under the Kingdom Gospel who followed Moses as they always had minus the potions of the Law which were fulfilled in Christ (i.e. the sacrificial system and related laws). These believers are who a large segment of the New Testament were written too and about (i.e. Hebrews - Revelation). The other group was made up of both Jews and Gentiles but has nothing to do with Israel's Kingdom and the members of this group are not members of the nation of Israel nor do any of Israel's promises apply to them. They instead are members of the Body of Christ and are hidden in Him, identified in Him. We are righteous in Him because He is righteous, not because of what we do but because of what He has already done. We are citizens of heaven and have a heavenly calling unlike Israel and the Jews who have their citizenship in the Nation of Israel and have an Earthly calling.

This is the doctrine you get when you pay attention to context (i.e. who is saying what to whom) and allow the text of scripture to mean what it plainly states.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Paul taught the same thing that Jesus taught!

First to the Jews...the lost sheep...and then to the Gentiles.


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

If that were true, there would have been no need for Paul's ministry to begin with. Jesus already had twelve apostles which had both the great commission (which they didn't follow) and the Holy Spirit to guide them. Paul came on the seen because God changed what he was doing. Instead of sending Christ back to give Israel their kingdom, He instead cut Israel off because of their rejection of their King and turn instead to the Gentiles through Paul.
 

JonahofAkron

New member
Well, those who were saved under the law, remained under it until their physical death but Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ, the first to be saved under the Gospel of Grace. God cut off Israel with the stoning of Stephen, converted Paul on the Damascus Road and sent him first to Israel and eventually to the Gentiles. Some years later, the twelve agreed with Paul that they would stay in Israel and minister to "The Circumcision" and he (Paul) would go to the "Uncircumcision" (i.e. the Gentiles). Thus, for a time, there were two groups. There were Jews saved under the Kingdom Gospel who followed Moses as they always had minus the potions of the Law which were fulfilled in Christ (i.e. the sacrificial system and related laws). These believers are who a large segment of the New Testament were written too and about (i.e. Hebrews - Revelation). The other group was made up of both Jews and Gentiles but has nothing to do with Israel's Kingdom and the members of this group are not members of the nation of Israel nor do any of Israel's promises apply to them. They instead are members of the Body of Christ and are hidden in Him, identified in Him. We are righteous in Him because He is righteous, not because of what we do but because of what He has already done. We are citizens of heaven and have a heavenly calling unlike Israel and the Jews who have their citizenship in the Nation of Israel and have an Earthly calling.

This is the doctrine you get when you pay attention to context (i.e. who is saying what to whom) and allow the text of scripture to mean what it plainly states.

Resting in Him,
Clete
What in the world? Where did you get all of that?

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