ECT What does authority in the church look like?

[PhilipJames]

The church itself is singular, made up of all believers in Jesus as the Christ... that is, all those who have been born again and saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus in His death who died for us for the forgiveness of our sins.

is it so hard to say you agree with me? Very well.. I agree with your above statement. :up:

I remember from the verse I quoted that elders could be appointed or in another translation ordained. I'm not too big on supporting a requirement of ordination based on something scholastic. Our learning should still come from God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible.

Agreed that our learning should come from GOD and the Bible. Please clarify what you mean by 'something scholastic'.

The Bible doesn't change, but traditions have. And if the truth in the Bible does not change, there is no reason to have a "but" here.

Agreed that the scriptures do not change! and that (some) traditions do, especially when there is a lack of authority to maintain them. I submit that the rejection of authority amongst many (not all!) of the children of the Reformation, has led to the resurfacing of many heresies long since dealt with by our brethren who came before us. Arianism being a prime example.

In fact, a rejection of authority is almost an unspoken tenant of many of the 'churches' that have started up on their own authority. for they teach, search the scriptures, and empower their members to abandon them if they disagree with their pastors teaching, often to begin their own 'church' teaching what they believe is the 'truth'.

Thus we have the thousands of often contradictory 'Christian' messages being voiced. This confusion is a clear indication, to me, of a lack of (corporate) authority and guidance by the Holy Spirit amongst them.

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

is it so hard to say you agree with me? Very well.. I agree with your above statement. :up:

It is difficult if you mean the Catholic Church. But part of the difficulty is in the word one. Whereas I believe God is one I don't believe oneness so it is important to say there is only one God or that God stands alone. All other so called gods are false.

Agreed that our learning should come from GOD and the Bible. Please clarify what you mean by 'something scholastic'.

I mean a test to get the right answers is not always as good as spiritual maturity in spending time with God or reaching out to the lost in your service to God. So we have worship or service to the one who made us, in the name of Jesus Christ His Son who died for us that we would be saved and have the promise of eternal life.

Agreed that the scriptures do not change! and that (some) traditions do, especially when there is a lack of authority to maintain them. I submit that the rejection of authority amongst many (not all!) of the children of the Reformation, has led to the resurfacing of many heresies long since dealt with by our brethren who came before us. Arianism being a prime example.

I actually don't know what you are talking about. But I do know you are talking about your church now and not Christ's church.

In fact, a rejection of authority is almost an unspoken tenant of many of the 'churches' that have started up on their own authority. for they teach, search the scriptures, and empower their members to abandon them if they disagree with their pastors teaching, often to begin their own 'church' teaching what they believe is the 'truth'.

My experience with those who seek out the scriptures is that they have much spiritual profit in so doing, especially with a gifted teacher or evangelist.

Thus we have the thousands of often contradictory 'Christian' messages being voiced. This confusion is a clear indication, to me, of a lack of (corporate) authority and guidance by the Holy Spirit amongst them.

Peace!
PJ

I believe you need spiritual grounding, not to be included among false ideas. This means in part that you will have to think for yourself as the Bereans did at the preaching of Paul. They searched the scriptures for themselves, so none of us should be devoid of the Spirit or the scriptures.

 

[PhilipJames]

There is much here to contemplate. When I go through some of the scriptures I don't see the word ordained in the translation provided.

Take your time in responding. I won't hurry you. If you prefer the words appointed, or gifted to ordained, that's fine with me.

Let's address Timothy and then elders. With Timothy it is said he had a gift through the laying on of hands. But you mentioned this was ordination, which from the verses provided I do not see.

As for elders... there are elders, overseers, shepherds, pastors, deacons, etc..., there are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. I'm commenting on those who are in the church, without mentioning all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, namely what we call Spiritual gifts. But obviously those who are above reproach and hold to these roles have the gift of the Holy Spirit as I believe all those who are believers in God and have faith in God only in His Son Jesus the Christ.

Ephesians 4:11 NASB - And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

I have bolded a few things here in your message. Yes! By ordination, I mean that special gifting of the Holy Spirit that is given to those who are made elders in the Church! If you prefer to call it gifting, that's fine, it means exactly the same thing as ordination...:up:

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Take your time in responding. I won't hurry you. If you prefer the words appointed, or gifted to ordained, that's fine with me.

I mean I will continue to learn (in my life by studying the scriptures), even to include whatever posts we can learn by studying the scriptures with.

I have bolded a few things here in your message. Yes! By ordination, I mean that special gifting of the Holy Spirit that is given to those who are made elders in the Church! If you prefer to call it gifting, that's fine, it means exactly the same thing as ordination...:up:

Peace!
PJ

The gifts of the Spirit of God are not dependent upon a position in the church. What this means is that the spiritual gifts are of God's choosing, not ours. We are to desire the greater gifts. We also know there is a Biblical way of appointing someone and it is different from getting a Bible degree or ordination.

 

[PhilipJames]

It is difficult if you mean the Catholic Church. But part of the difficulty is in the word one. Whereas I believe God is one I don't believe oneness so it is important to say there is only one God or that God stands alone. All other so called gods are false.

I agree with this statement: "The church itself is singular, made up of all believers in Jesus as the Christ... that is, all those who have been born again and saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus in His death who died for us for the forgiveness of our sins."

What then is the issue? Do you not think that faithful members of the 'Catholic' church meet that criteria?

I mean a test to get the right answers is not always as good as spiritual maturity in spending time with God or reaching out to the lost in your service to God. So we have worship or service to the one who made us, in the name of Jesus Christ His Son who died for us that we would be saved and have the promise of eternal life.

Agreed! In my church we call that 'formation' and it usually involves years not only of study and service, but also of prayer and worship , and self examination to ensure one has indeed been called by GOD to commit to serve HIS Church.

I actually don't know what you are talking about.

really? you don't see the mass confusion amongst the thousands of 'churches' that have sprung up in the last few hundred years?

But I do know you are talking about your church now and not Christ's church.

why would you think 'my' church is not a member of Christ's church?

My experience with those who seek out the scriptures is that they have much spiritual profit in so doing, especially with a gifted teacher or evangelist.

I believe you need spiritual grounding, not to be included among false ideas. This means in part that you will have to think for yourself as the Bereans did at the preaching of Paul. They searched the scriptures for themselves, so none of us should be devoid of the Spirit or the scriptures.

Did they search by themselves? Or did they compare what Paul said to what they saw there? Without Paul, would they have found it themselves? What if they said... ok Paul, these things are right... but you're wrong here, here and here... thanks, we'll put our faith in Christ but we won't join your community....

Peace!
PJ

 

[PhilipJames]

We also know there is a Biblical way of appointing someone and it is different from getting a Bible degree or ordination.

As shown, it is done through the laying on of hands, by those who are already elders. (and yes I believe a special gifting of the Holy Spirit is part of that)

If you see another scriptural way that this is done, please share.

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

I agree with this statement: "The church itself is singular, made up of all believers in Jesus as the Christ... that is, all those who have been born again and saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus in His death who died for us for the forgiveness of our sins."

What then is the issue? Do you not think that faithful members of the 'Catholic' church meet that criteria?

Being a faithful member of anything doesn't make one a Christian.

Agreed! In my church we call that 'formation' and it usually involves years not only of study and service, but also of prayer and worship , and self examination to ensure one has indeed been called by GOD to commit to serve HIS Church.

We are all who are believers called to worship and serve God in Christ, that is not at issue. But this doesn't necessarily mean within your particular church or organization. It means we can fellowship with each other and reason those who do not yet know Christ as well. This is in addition to whatever family responsibilities you have.

Some are learning at a very fast rate and some without any Biblical training. To be a scribe or theologian is a very different call than that of a servant of Christ by spending time with God or simply receiving all that God has for you whether you can read or not.

really? you don't see the mass confusion amongst the thousands of 'churches' that have sprung up in the last few hundred years?

I'm not talking about since then in that regard. Remember, my sense then goes back to before the term universal was added.

why would you think 'my' church is not a member of Christ's church?

I was talking about members in the church. I felt that was what you meant by members or membership.

Church membership is an entirely different question than if someone is a part of the body of Christ. Especially or that is if membership in Christ's church is different from being a believer in Jesus as the Christ, and that salvation is found only in Him and what He did for us. If becoming a member of a particular church or denomination like the Catholic Church is a requirement to be saved or a part of the church, which is Christ's body, at large... then we are saying salvation is by works which is not what the Bible says.

Did they search by themselves? Or did they compare what Paul said to what they saw there? Without Paul, would they have found it themselves? What if they said... ok Paul, these things are right... but you're wrong here, here and here... thanks, we'll put our faith in Christ but we won't join your community....

Peace!
PJ

They were thankful for Paul's ministry to them, but the checked out the things that he said against the scriptures from which he spoke.

 

[Jacob]

As shown, it is done through the laying on of hands, by those who are already elders. (and yes I believe a special gifting of the Holy Spirit is part of that)

Is it done by those who are already elders or is it done by the church body? For example, Timothy was an evangelist.

If you see another scriptural way that this is done, please share.

Peace!
PJ

Part of my reason for such a brief response was the numerous verses you had.

One about not laying hands on too hastily. Do you think this is for discipline purposes or in regard to a gift of the Holy Spirit? That is, if God wants someone to have a gift, He will give it to them. And this will of course be in His timing. But discipline is a different matter. So, did it mean discipline?

 

[PhilipJames]

Hello Untell,

Being a faithful member of anything doesn't make one a Christian.

all faithful Catholics meet this criteria: ""The church itself is singular, made up of all believers in Jesus as the Christ... that is, all those who have been born again and saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus in His death who died for us for the forgiveness of our sins."

We are all who are believers called to worship and serve God in Christ, that is not at issue. But this doesn't necessarily mean within your particular church or organization. It means we can fellowship with each other and reason those who do not yet know Christ as well. This is in addition to whatever family responsibilities you have.

Agreed!

Some are learning at a very fast rate and some without any Biblical training. To be a scribe or theologian is a very different call than that of a servant of Christ by spending time with God or simply receiving all that God has for you whether you can read or not.

Agreed!

I'm not talking about since then in that regard. Remember, my sense then goes back to before the term universal was added.

You disagree with the 'term' but you affirm the very meaning of that term, that there is (and always has been) but one Body of Christ. Do you think that Ignatius of Antioch was a member of that Body?

I was talking about members in the church. I felt that was what you meant by members or membership.

Church membership is an entirely different question than if someone is a part of the body of Christ.

Agreed. There are many tares amongst the wheat. Just because someone looks like a Christian, or even acts like a Christian, does not mean they are. It is all about the heart! But if God wouldn't let HIS own angels pluck them out, I'm not even going to try...

Consider this parable: Matt 13:47-48

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net thrown into the sea, which collects fish of every kind.

When it is full they haul it ashore and sit down to put what is good into buckets. What is bad they throw away.

The net is the Church, the end of the age is when the net is full.... then comes judgement...

Especially or that is if membership in Christ's church is different from being a believer in Jesus as the Christ, and that salvation is found only in Him and what He did for us. If becoming a member of a particular church or denomination like the Catholic Church is a requirement to be saved or a part of the church, which is Christ's body, at large... then we are saying salvation is by works which is not what the Bible says.

forget about denominations, they are a tool of the enemy who seeks to divide us.
Referring to the Body of Christ (and not a particular church) would you agree that becoming a member is vital?

They were thankful for Paul's ministry to them, but the checked out the things that he said against the scriptures from which he spoke.

Yes. And if they had rejected Paul's 'interpretation' and read some other one of their own... what then?

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Hello Untell,

all faithful Catholics meet this criteria: ""The church itself is singular, made up of all believers in Jesus as the Christ... that is, all those who have been born again and saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus in His death who died for us for the forgiveness of our sins."

I used the word singular, but I guess if that is a theological word we don't need it. You asked if the church is one and I responded it IS singular but not one in the sense or oneness or what not.

Agreed!

Agreed!

You disagree with the 'term' but you affirm the very meaning of that term, that there is (and always has been) but one Body of Christ. Do you think that Ignatius of Antioch was a member of that Body?

Agreed. There are many tares amongst the wheat. Just because someone looks like a Christian, or even acts like a Christian, does not mean they are. It is all about the heart! But if God wouldn't let HIS own angels pluck them out, I'm not even going to try...

Consider this parable: Matt 13:47-48

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net thrown into the sea, which collects fish of every kind.

When it is full they haul it ashore and sit down to put what is good into buckets. What is bad they throw away.

The net is the Church, the end of the age is when the net is full.... then comes judgement...

forget about denominations, they are a tool of the enemy who seeks to divide us.
Referring to the Body of Christ (and not a particular church) would you agree that becoming a member is vital?

Yes. And if they had rejected Paul's 'interpretation' and read some other one of their own... what then?

Peace!
PJ

Whatever would the requirement be for being a member? If you are a believer you are already in! Christ's church does not have doors like a church building has. Those who are believers are therefore members, and it doesn't matter if you go to church or not for this. It doesn't matter if you have taken a membership class or not for this. It doesn't matter if you agree with what the local church does... so long as you do not deny that which is truth and this according to the Bible. But even then, some truths of the Christian faith take time and some doctrines that have been taught have been debatable or worth taking a second look at. If we are grounded in the scriptures then hopefully what we teach or say is as well.

Would you say Roman Catholicism is a denomination? I was saying it is a church or a denomination. As such it has flaws. Whereas in Christ's church there are no flaws except that in the same way we create them. If we are submitted to the Spirit of God then we agree with the word of God and we do not contradict it.

 

[PhilipJames]

Is it done by those who are already elders or is it done by the church body? For example, Timothy was an evangelist.

He was more than just an evangelist.. 1Tim4:11-12

Command and teach these things.

Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity.

He had authority to 'command and teach' within the Body of Christ.

And I believe I showed him being 'gifted' through the laying on of hands by Paul and the presbyters. You'll have to find another example in scripture to convince me that it is done any other way.

Part of my reason for such a brief response was the numerous verses you had.

No worries. This will be my last post tonight. Take your time examining them. I am enjoying our dialogue and will check in again tomorrow, God willing.

One about not laying hands on too hastily. Do you think this is for discipline purposes or in regard to a gift of the Holy Spirit? That is, if God wants someone to have a gift, He will give it to them. And this will of course be in His timing. But discipline is a different matter. So, did it mean discipline?

I believe it is referring specifically to a gift (or gifts) of the Holy Spirit. One wouldn't want to 'lay hands' on Simon Magus for example and give him any sort of authority in the Church... IMO the warning not to 'share in their sins' is saying that the elder who 'gifts' another with authority in the Church is responsible (and thus accountable) for that others actions/teaching.

I will however reread the passage with your suggestion that it is referring to discipline of some sort.

Good night!
Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

He was more than just an evangelist.. 1Tim4:11-12

Command and teach these things.

Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity.

He had authority to 'command and teach' within the Body of Christ.

Does an evangelist have this authority? He was young. The evangelist is for the building up of the body of Christ, the church. Is this true? Obviously an evangelist can reach out to others. But what of evangelism in the New Testament church? Just questions, no challenging but we might be able to think about these things.

And I believe I showed him being 'gifted' through the laying on of hands by Paul and the presbyters. You'll have to find another example in scripture to convince me that it is done any other way.

I felt you were saying Timothy was an elder and that this is how he appointed others. But the text we both know of so far does say he is an evangelist.

No worries. This will be my last post tonight. Take your time examining them. I am enjoying our dialogue and will check in again tomorrow, God willing.

Shalom. I am glad we can communicate about these things. I hope you will see Christ (Messiah) before what you have come to know of your church, if you remain in these things at all.

I believe it is referring specifically to a gift (or gifts) of the Holy Spirit. One wouldn't want to 'lay hands' on Simon Magus for example and give him any sort of authority in the Church... IMO the warning not to 'share in their sins' is saying that the elder who 'gifts' another with authority in the Church is responsible (and thus accountable) for that others actions/teaching.

I remember there is a verse about church discipline. That would be different than someone who is not a Christian.

I will however reread the passage with your suggestion that it is referring to discipline of some sort.

Good night!
Peace!
PJ

Shalom.

I believe it is important to read all of these passages. It is important to look at these words, and we come from different backgrounds / translations.

 

[Jacob]

I don't know so I will try to read it in context the way you have suggested. Obviously a good and correct interpretation is important.

1 Timothy 5:22 NASB - Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

Reading it just one verse at a time does not give the reader all that there is to see in the passage, but this is the verse in question. It is the verse you mentioned you would read again, and in reading it again myself I must admit that I just don't know. I just don't know what it means.

 

[PureX]

Some of the verses are about not conforming. Such as in not conforming to the pattern we see in the world that is set against God. Rather we should be transformed in the renewing of our mind. We need to approve of the things God wants us to.

But these things are understood by those who forsake sin in favor of living for God. And these are those who understand their need for repentance and the grace of God in Jesus Christ who died for them for the forgiveness of their sins and that we would be granted the gift of eternal life. We leave sin which leads to death and in its place we have obedience which leads to righteousness and eternal life.

Terms like "conformance" and "obedience" and "repentance" are terms that the religious controllers like to use because they imply a need (and false justification) for discipline, and punishment, and control. Exactly those things that self-assumed human "authorities" want to inflict upon everyone else. But that isn't the message of Christ.

The message of Christ is a message of freedom from this kind of bondage. Through Christ we are set free from the presumed need and judgments of human authorities and their lust for discipline, and punishment, and control. Because through Christ, we recognize God's spirit within us, as being a part of us. And as we turn ourselves over to that spirit within, any presumed need for discipline and punishment and control is dispelled. And we are free.

This is why I reject the religion of the authoritarians as a false religion, intent on enslaving us rather than freeing us. And it's why I will not pretend that God wrote the Bible, and that the Bible contains "God's authority". And this decision is borne out every time I talk to people who believe in this false religious authoritarianism, because they are obsessed, endlessly, with a contempt for humanity, and they prattle on, endlessly, about how we deserve to be condemned, and punished, and corrected, and controlled, at all times. They do not know Christ, even though they call themselves Christians. They worship their holy books and use them to condemn themselves and everyone else. They are lost to their own fear and egotism. And I will not join them.

But the scripture and the church may both be helpful for your spiritual growth, because they are from God.

Everything is from God. And everything can be helpful to us, spiritually, given the right attitude and circumstances. But everything, including religion and the Bible, can be used to do great harm to ourselves and to others, too. And that harm begins when we make a false idol of the Bible and of our religion by imbuing them with the authority of God, Himself. An authority that these things do not possess.

There are verses in the Bible that tells us about the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives. If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you you know you are temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are saved and born again, and that you have been forgiven your sin which you can overcome and leave in the past.

And with it, we can also leave behind the religious idols, and the human "authorities" that pretend themselves to be divine, or that we wrongly deem divinely righteous. And the self loathing and condemnation that our previous religiosity and adherence to these religious controllers have poisoned us with.

Not a spirit guide Holy Spirit. Although the Holy Spirit will lead you in all righteousness.

That sure sounds like a spirit guide to me. One that renders the religious guides impotent.

Look, I'm not condemning religion. I'm just pointing out that if we have found Christ (God's spirit within) we don't need religion, anymore. I understand that we a will still falter, and forget, and lose our grasp and faith in that spirit of God within us sometimes, and that there are some religious tools that can help us to reconnect with Christ, and hold onto that connection to the divine spirit within. And we should use those tools for that purpose.

But unfortunately, it is a constant failure of religion and religiosity that it wants to take God's place within us and in the world, instead of stepping aside and helping us find the truth of God within ourselves. It constantly falls victim to the illusion of it's own presumed divine authority. And as it does so, it begins to presume itself to be God's truth, and to make us dependent upon it's self-assumed "divine religious truth", instead of upon God's real spirit of love and truth that dwells within each of us. When that happens, religion does not seek to set us free, but to enslave us to itself. And there are a great many Christians who have become thusly enslaved.

 

[Jacob]

Terms like "conformance" and "obedience" and "repentance" are terms that the religious controllers like to use because they imply a need (and false justification) for discipline, and punishment, and control. Exactly those things that self-assumed human "authorities" want to inflict upon everyone else. But that isn't the message of Christ.

I don't know about the term conformance. I only know that the word conform is used in different ways in the Bible, and not in the religious way you specify. The use of the word in the Bible is not about control at all.

The message of Christ is a message of freedom from this kind of bondage. Through Christ we are set free from the presumed need and judgments of human authorities and their lust for discipline, and punishment, and control. Because through Christ, we recognize God's spirit within us, as being a part of us. And as we turn ourselves over to that spirit within, any presumed need for discipline and punishment and control is dispelled. And we are free.

This is why I reject the religion of the authoritarians as a false religion, intent on enslaving us rather than freeing us. And it's why I will not pretend that God wrote the Bible,

The Bible is said to be inspired of God or God-breathed because though men wrote it down they did so at God's instruction.

and that the Bible contains "God's authority". And this decision is borne out every time I talk to people who believe in this false religious authoritarianism, because they are obsessed, endlessly, with a contempt for humanity, and they prattle on, endlessly, about how we deserve to be condemned, and punished, and corrected, and controlled, at all times. They do not know Christ, even though they call themselves Christians. They worship their holy books and use them to condemn themselves and everyone else. They are lost to their own fear and egotism. And I will not join them.
Everything is from God. And everything can be helpful to us, spiritually, given the right attitude and circumstances. But everything, including religion and the Bible, can be used to do great harm to ourselves and to others, too. And that harm begins when we make a false idol of the Bible and of our religion by imbuing them with the authority of God, Himself. An authority that these things do not possess.
And with it, we can also leave behind the religious idols, and the human "authorities" that pretend themselves to be divine, or that we wrongly deem divinely righteous. And the self loathing and condemnation that our previous religiosity and adherence to these religious controllers have poisoned us with.
That sure sounds like a spirit guide to me. One that renders the religious guides impotent.

Look, I'm not condemning religion. I'm just pointing out that if we have found Christ (God's spirit within)

Christ is not "God's spirit within". The word Christ means "Anointed" or "Anointed One". Jesus is the Anointed One of God, or God's Anointed.

we don't need religion, anymore. I understand that we a will still falter, and forget, and lose our grasp and faith in that spirit of God within us sometimes, and that there are some religious tools that can help us to reconnect with Christ, and hold onto that connection to the divine spirit within. And we should use those tools for that purpose.

But unfortunately, it is a constant failure of religion and religiosity that it wants to take God's place within us and in the world, instead of stepping aside and helping us find the truth of God within ourselves. It constantly falls victim to the illusion of it's own presumed divine authority. And as it does so, it begins to presume itself to be God's truth, and to make us dependent upon it's self-assumed "divine religious truth", instead of upon God's real spirit of love and truth that dwells within each of us. When that happens, religion does not seek to set us free, but to enslave us to itself. And there are a great many Christians who have become thusly enslaved.

There is a difference between being a slave to sin and a slave to religion, but the Bible says we are not a slave to sin any longer but instead a slave to obedience leading to righteousness.

 

[PhilipJames]

Hi Untel,

I used the word singular, but I guess if that is a theological word we don't need it. You asked if the church is one and I responded it IS singular but not one in the sense or oneness or what not.

well I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'oneness' but if by singular you mean that there is only one body of Christ, made up of all its members... then again, I agree with you

Whatever would the requirement be for being a member? If you are a believer you are already in! Christ's church does not have doors like a church building has.

Jesus, Himself, is the gate. Anyone who climbs in some other way is a thief and a robber.... and HE HIMSELF told us the 'requirement' to become a member. You referenced it earlier... it is to be 'born again'. And as our Lord said... that is to be born of water and Spirit... that is , Baptism! Thus you hear the apostles saying, Believe and be baptized....this is the ordinary manner to be born again, and thus become a member of the Body.

Would you say Roman Catholicism is a denomination? I was saying it is a church or a denomination.

I guess that depends on how you define 'denomination'... I would describe Roman Catholicism as a community of particular (or local)churches who are in communion with the Church in Rome. Thus I would say, that I belong to the Church in Winnipeg, and my bishop is in communion with the bishop of the Church in Rome.

Likewise I would describe those churches in communion with the Church in Constantinople (Orthodox).. and those in communion with the Church in Alexandria (Copts). I believe all of these churches have valid apostolic authority, handed down by the power of the Holy Spirit from generation to generation even till today...

Are there others who belong to the Body of Christ? Most assuredly! There's an old Orthodox saying that I love: 'one can say with assurance where the Church is; but not where it is not.

As such it has flaws. Whereas in Christ's church there are no flaws except that in the same way we create them. If we are submitted to the Spirit of God then we agree with the word of God and we do not contradict it.

members of the Church indeed have flaws, and until we're formed into the perfect likeness of our Head, Jesus Christ, we always will have them. But, as you said, Christ's Church, that is the whole Body of Christ, has no flaws.. it is HOLY, washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

And further, the Holy Spirit guides and guards her, and prevents her from being overcome by error! Else Christ would be proved a false prophet...

But how does HE do that? This goes back again to your OP.. what does authority look like in the Church....

for the local or particular church, it is done through the authority of the bishop and the presbyters. For the Church as a whole, it is done through the whole council of bishops (elders) in the Church... the prototype for which is the Council of Jerusalem in Acts... where it was definitively declared 'it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us....' that Jewish customs and 'laws' like circumcision of the flesh were not to be imposed on gentile members of the community.

The first Council of Nicaea is another good example... here you had many bishops (and others) embracing the error of Arius... but the Holy Spirit working through the bishops at that council ensured that the Truth was definitively declared regarding the divinity of Jesus:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.


Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Hi Untel,

well I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'oneness' but if by singular you mean that there is only one body of Christ, made up of all its members... then again, I agree with you

Yes. Nothing to do with oneness, but to be careful not to get anything like oneness from the word one. Such as that there is one God. So that I know one does not mean more or less than one either. It is also not "like one" or "one, kind of".

Jesus, Himself, is the gate. Anyone who climbs in some other way is a thief and a robber.... and HE HIMSELF told us the 'requirement' to become a member. You referenced it earlier... it is to be 'born again'. And as our Lord said... that is to be born of water and Spirit... that is , Baptism! Thus you hear the apostles saying, Believe and be baptized....this is the ordinary manner to be born again, and thus become a member of the Body.

I believe the first birth is birth from a mother's womb (therefore, it is of water) while the second birth is birth by the Spirit of God.

I guess that depends on how you define 'denomination'... I would describe Roman Catholicism as a community of particular (or local)churches who are in communion with the Church in Rome. Thus I would say, that I belong to the Church in Winnipeg, and my bishop is in communion with the bishop of the Church in Rome.

I don't know where that is but this is your view.

Likewise I would describe those churches in communion with the Church in Constantinople (Orthodox).. and those in communion with the Church in Alexandria (Copts). I believe all of these churches have valid apostolic authority, handed down by the power of the Holy Spirit from generation to generation even till today...

You have a broader view than most, but you unite these under the word catholic?

Are there others who belong to the Body of Christ? Most assuredly! There's an old Orthodox saying that I love: 'one can say with assurance where the Church is; but not where it is not.

This is not to invite or accept back in Protestants, but to point out that to be in Christ does not depend on denominations or what we can see with our visible eyes?

I am a Christian and a Messianic. I believe Jesus to be the Messiah.

members of the Church indeed have flaws, and until we're formed into the perfect likeness of our Head, Jesus Christ, we always will have them. But, as you said, Christ's Church, that is the whole Body of Christ, has no flaws.. it is HOLY, washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

But now you are speaking of certain people in particular I believe. Which is not the correct view.

And further, the Holy Spirit guides and guards her, and prevents her from being overcome by error! Else Christ would be proved a false prophet...

He is not a false prophet and no one can prove that He is.

But how does HE do that? This goes back again to your OP.. what does authority look like in the Church....

That is the question. What does the Bible say? Is that what we see today? Instead of can we make the Bible say what we see today.

for the local or particular church, it is done through the authority of the bishop and the presbyters. For the Church as a whole, it is done through the whole council of bishops (elders) in the Church... the prototype for which is the Council of Jerusalem in Acts... where it was definitively declared 'it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us....' that Jewish customs and 'laws' like circumcision of the flesh were not to be imposed on gentile members of the community.

I have no problem with the Torah. I simply don't wear tzit-tzit.

The first Council of Nicaea is another good example... here you had many bishops (and others) embracing the error of Arius... but the Holy Spirit working through the bishops at that council ensured that the Truth was definitively declared regarding the divinity of Jesus:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.


Peace!
PJ

Here you would be speaking in regard to what is good doctrine... what the Church believes, and that which heretics and those who are led astray do not. For me this is a different discussion, but one I am willing to have with you when or if you are able. I believe in the Deity of Jesus. I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

But you were talking about what it looks like in terms of leadership or authority. I know of the council of/at Jerusalem.

 

[PhilipJames]

1 Timothy 5:22 NASB - Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

I felt you were saying Timothy was an elder and that this is how he appointed others. But the text we both know of so far does say he is an evangelist.

Yes I was saying that Timothy was an elder. And after rereading both letters to Timothy, I am more convinced than ever that the Paul appointed him as an overseer in the Church in Ephesus.

Consider the whole chapter before that verse.. Paul is instructing Timothy on how to shepherd men (old and young) women, widows.. and in the verses just prior to the one above, presbyters.

vs 17-20 ' Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.

For the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing," and, "A worker deserves his pay."

Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.

Reprimand publicly those who do sin, so that the rest also will be afraid.

Timothy is being told to reward those presbyters who fulfill their office well, and rebuke those who do not. (the verse about reprimand may also be referring to all the members listed in the above chapter but certainly refers to the elders)

To me, this clearly shows that Timothy has oversight in the Church, carrying the authority that he received from the Holy Spirit through Paul.

And with that in mind... the warning to be careful who he lays hands on becomes more clearly associated with appointing presbyters who were just previously mentioned... (in my opinion)

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Yes I was saying that Timothy was an elder. And after rereading both letters to Timothy, I am more convinced than ever that the Paul appointed him as an overseer in the Church in Ephesus.

Consider the whole chapter before that verse.. Paul is instructing Timothy on how to shepherd men (old and young) women, widows.. and in the verses just prior to the one above, presbyters.

vs 17-20 ' Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.

For the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing," and, "A worker deserves his pay."

Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.

Reprimand publicly those who do sin, so that the rest also will be afraid.

Timothy is being told to reward those presbyters who fulfill their office well, and rebuke those who do not. (the verse about reprimand may also be referring to all the members listed in the above chapter but certainly refers to the elders)

To me, this clearly shows that Timothy has oversight in the Church, carrying the authority that he received from the Holy Spirit through Paul.

And with that in mind... the warning to be careful who he lays hands on becomes more clearly associated with appointing presbyters who were just previously mentioned... (in my opinion)

Peace!
PJ

Do you see a difference between an overseer and an elder?

And, can an evangelist be considered an overseer or an elder?

That is, is the evangelist in the position of an overseer or an elder?

 

[meshak]

And, can an evangelist be considered an overseer or an elder?

That is, is the evangelist in the position of an overseer or an elder?

You don't have to be overseer or an elder to be an evangelist.

I am neither, I am inspired to evangelize.

You need to have relationship with God and Jesus, instead of following traditional faith. Jesus is not for corrupt tradition.