What and who did Paul preach?

[JudgeRightly]

Why should I bother?

Because that's what this site is for.

I've been asking Mid Acts Dispenationalists for a while now, to provide a statement of faith or creed that you believe,

And you've been repeatedly answered that we believe the Bible.

Why do we need to believe a creed or statement of faith?

so that we can actually discuss the actual tenets of your systematic theology.

The tenets of our theology are contained within the Bible.

If you have a problem with that, then maybe the issue doesn't lie with us, but you.

You yourself provided me the Grace Ambassadors web domain, which I examined, and when I asked you about its content you said you wouldn't vouch for it. Someone else recommended I read Bob Enyart's (of happy memory) The Plot. I asked the same question and literally every Mid Acts Dispensationalist refused to vouch for that too.

I can vouch that The Plot is worth reading, and in terms of a book written by a fallible man, is certainly worthy of examination.

But you continue to refuse to read it, claiming that's not good enough.

Man up, Idolater. Either read the book, understanding that it's written by a fallible man, or quit complaining about not having anything to go off of.

So I'm asking again, for something reasonable, which is what exactly Mid Acts Dispensationalism believes or teaches or even just is. Something which is authoritative Mid Acts Dispensationalism, so that we're all talking about the same thing.

The Bible is authoritative Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

If you want a good book on it, then read The Plot.

Otherwise, quit complaining.

I remind you the entirety of Catholicism as a systematic theology is contained in and expressed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available for free online, along with printed copies. Whatever anybody reads in the Catechism is Catholicism.

Yawn.

Whatever Mid Acts Dispensationalism is, I have enough evidence to argue that nobody knows what it is.

The following is NOT authoritative in any way, but is meant to help you understand MAD so that you have no more excuse about not knowing what it is.

Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is the systematic theology that holds that God works in different ways at different times with different peoples, and specifically that the last change in dispensations was in Acts 9, where God cut off unbelieving Israel and grafted in the Body of Christ, which had been a mystery kept secret since the foundation of the world.

There are 5 key chapters to help you understand the plot of the Bible.

Jeremiah 18: The warning to Israel that if they continue to reject God, He will cut them off.
Matthew 15: Jesus was sent only to Jews.
Luke 13: Jesus came preaching to the Jews for three years and wanted to cut them off, but the Holy Spirit said to wait another year.
Romans 11: Israel was cut off, and the Body of Christ was grafted in.
Galatians 2: Peter (and the other 11 Apostles) were given the gospel of the circumcision for Israel, and Paul was given the gospel of uncircumcision for the Body of Christ, and each agreed to go only to their respective groups.

There are many more facets to MAD, but those are the basics.

Certainly none of the self-identifying Mid Acts Dispensationalists on TOL.

Bearing false witness is a sin, Idolater.

 

[Right Divider]

Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is the systematic theology that holds that God works in different ways at different times with different peoples, and specifically that the last change in dispensations was in Acts 9, where God cut off unbelieving Israel and grafted in the Body of Christ, which had been a mystery kept secret since the foundation of the world.

I have to disagree with this "grafting in the body of Christ".

The body of Christ is a new creation and is not grafted into anything.

If you are referring to Romans 11, that particular passage is not about this dispensation, but the previous one.

https://graceambassadors.com/books/romans-46

 

[JudgeRightly]

I have to disagree with this "grafting in the body of Christ".

The body of Christ is a new creation and is not grafted into anything.

If you are referring to Romans 11, that particular passage is not about this dispensation, but the previous one.

https://graceambassadors.com/books/romans-46

Good point. Allow me to rephrase.

God cut off unbelieving Israel, and started adding people to the Body of Christ, which had been a mystery...

 

[Gary K]

You're absolutely right

Right, Jesus said to search the scriptures.
And so did Paul.
Paul was very educated on what the scriptures said.
But just like Jesus' disciples had been guilty of, Paul's expectation of the fulfilment (the actual meaning) of those scriptures were skewed until Christ opened their eyes; which often turned out to be something completely different (and even contradicted) what they had previously thought the actual meaning of those scriptures were really all about.

They saw scripture as black & white until Christ showed them the scriptures in living color.

.You're absolutely right. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. The entire history of Jesus and His disciples is an excellent demonstration of this. James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven on the Samaritans who didn't want Jesus to stop in their town. They constantly argued about who was going to be greatest in the kingdom here on earth when Jesus established it. They were crushed when Jesus was tried, convicted, and hung on the cross. They didn't really understand what He was trying to teach them until after Pentacost.

 

[Right Divider]

Again, Tambora... support your claim!

Show where they believed something wrongly and show where they were corrected (particularly Paul).

Otherwise you're just full of hot air.

@Tambora We are still waiting for you to make good on this claim.

Where did Jesus correct Paul's understanding of the scripture that he was quoting?

 

[Idolater]

Again, Tambora... support your claim!

Show where they believed something wrongly and show where they were corrected (particularly Paul).

Mid-Acts! He was corrected on the road to Damascus, and thereafter. Up to Acts 9 he "believed something wrongly." The Scripture doesn't show Our Lord correcting Paul, Paul only mentions that he learned from Him face-to-face through very clear miraculous divine intervention and revelation to him. One tradition we have is that Luke's Gospel is dictated by Paul, and that he told Luke about this content, and others, which he learned directly from Our Lord (details of His Earthly ministry that only someone who had been there would have known), thus proving he was miraculously reconciled to the Church directly by Our Lord Himself (this was the only way it could be done, since it would take a miracle for the Church to receive Paul into her, and that's what Our Lord did with Paul, not only that but He made Paul an Apostle, just like Peter and Andrew and John).

If Paul had understood before Acts 9 the Old Testament Scriptures to be saying that the God of Jerusalem will become a flesh, blood and bone man, and that He will suffer under a trifle magistrate of occupying Gentiles (Pontius Pilate), be crucified, die on the cross, and be buried, then he wouldn't have approved of the murderous execution of Stephen (the first martyr). He would have also believed that Our Lord's Resurrection is also prophesied in the Jerusalem Bible (which it is), but he didn't before Acts 9, where Our Lord began correcting him.

The correction took some years, but there is scant evidence in the tradition of the details.

Otherwise you're just full of hot air.

Why doesn't gravity affect hot air, if it's so real?

 

[Right Divider]

Paul was very educated on what the scriptures said.
But just like Jesus' disciples had been guilty of, Paul's expectation of the fulfilment (the actual meaning) of those scriptures were skewed until Christ opened their eyes; which often turned out to be something completely different (and even contradicted) what they had previously thought the actual meaning of those scriptures were really all about.

@Idolater This is the claim that needs support.

If you'd like to address that, go ahead. Show specific scripture where Paul wrongly understood the fulfillment of scripture and was corrected, in scripture, by Christ.

P.S. And I'm not talking about some unsupported claim from RCC tradition. We need scripture.

 

[Nick M]

12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

You can only make up things and say this needs to be interpreted correctly if you reject the testimony in the gospels.

31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”


34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

 

[Gary K]

That is one of the dumbest things I have seen posted. It ranks with those who deny it all together.

So why didn't the disciples believe Jesus when He told them He was going to die and rise again the third day if what Tambora said is really stupid?

 

[Lon]

Again, Tambora... support your claim!

Show where they believed something wrongly and show where they were corrected (particularly Paul).

Otherwise you're just full of hot air.

The only context in which I mentioned contradiction was in the context of what the disciples and Paul had previously thought was the actual meaning of scripture until Christ opened their understanding.
It's right there in my post for all to read.

Not sure if this passes for what is asked for:

Act 9:4 And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
Act 9:5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Act 9:6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

 

[Right Divider]

Not sure if this passes for what is asked for:

Act 9:4 And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
Act 9:5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Act 9:6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

No, it does not.

Please read Tambora's post. She claims that Paul reads prophetic scripture in one way and that Christ corrects that understanding in a different and sometimes contradictory way.

 

[Right Divider]

So why didn't the disciples believe Jesus when He told them He was going to die and rise again the third day if what Tambora said is really stupid?

The Bible goes so far as to say that this was hidden from them.

Luke 18:34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.​

​

This is why I have often pointed out that the gospel of the kingdom (which they had been preaching for at least two years before Luke 18) did not mention the death of Christ.

 

[Nick M]

So why didn't the disciples believe Jesus when He told them He was going to die and rise again the third day if what Tambora said is really stupid?

It was hidden from them. The scripture is very clear. They were not to know, nobody was to know. This has been posted over and over right here on TOL. Are people perverting what the Bible says (twist and make evil), or are they stupid?

31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be [f]accomplished. 32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”


34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

 

[Right Divider]

@Tambora We are still waiting for you to make good on this claim.

Where did Jesus correct Paul's understanding of the scripture that he was quoting?

@Tambora Still waiting....

I would suggest that you show us this or retract your false statement.

 

[DAN P]

I have to disagree with this "grafting in the body of Christ".

The body of Christ is a new creation and is not grafted into anything.

If you are referring to Romans 11, that particular passage is not about this dispensation, but the previous one.

https://graceambassadors.com/books/romans-46

I have yet to see where it says that we are grafted into the body of Christ .

1 Cor 12:14 - 17 that the b o c has many members .

the b o c are Christ , eyes , are his feet , his hands , his ears , his sense of hearing , and sense of smell

I say we are Christ as we a new creation and are // este in Christ

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

The only context in which I mentioned contradiction was in the context of what the disciples and Paul had previously thought was the actual meaning of scripture until Christ opened their understanding.
It's right there in my post for all to read.

@Tambora This is "right there in your post for all to read".

It appears that you were just making things up out of thin air (hot air).

Are you presently working on your retraction?

Paul was never "corrected" by Christ about the meaning of scripture that Paul well understood.

 

[Right Divider]

@Tambora This is "right there in your post for all to read".

It appears that you were just making things up out of thin air (hot air).

Are you presently working on your retraction?

Paul was never "corrected" by Christ about the meaning of scripture that Paul well understood.

So folks... it appears that @Tambora has decided to simply let her fib remain exposed for all to see without any justification whatsoever for such a fib. Shameful and sad for a once great poster here on TOL...

 

[JudgeRightly]

So folks... it appears that @Tambora has decided to simply let her fib remain exposed for all to see without any justification whatsoever for such a fib. Shameful and sad for a once great poster here on TOL...

I get the feeling that @Tambora has blocked people like us...

 

[Right Divider]

I get the feeling that @Tambora has blocked people like us...

Yes, I think that she has plugged her ears to being told the truth. It's very sad.

With her desire to hear "many opinions/views" about things, she reminds me a lot of the people that Paul encountered in Acts 17:

Acts 17:21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(17:21) (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)​

​

Wonderful!
I look forward to all the viewpoints that can be shared in each chapter.

Of course she does not really mean that, because she disparages and pooh-pooh's our viewpoint. She, and others, seem to think that arguing for one specific (and well reasoned) point of view is somehow arrogant. I'm not sure how they think that they get to the truth using a multitude of poorly reasoned opinions.

​

 

[Gary K]

So folks... it appears that @Tambora has decided to simply let her fib remain exposed for all to see without any justification whatsoever for such a fib. Shameful and sad for a once great poster here on TOL...

I disagree on a lot of things with @Tambora, but she is right on with this.